Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Head size?

DS7 has always had a huge head...... when he was younger he was very thin and I used to think he looked like a bobble head

I was reading the thread about when did you know..... someone mentioned head size.

Anyone else have big head kids?

Over here! DS has one. LOL. I always have trouble buying regular tops for him because he would have a hard time wearing them over his head. I resorted to buying top with V-neck or with buttons (like Polo tops). Now, at 8, we have no problem with tops.

I have to hop over to read that post u have mentioned! So interesting...

My DS has quite a big head! LOL. We also struggle with tops. When we struggle to get his t-shirt off, DP says 'you've got such a big head' (jokingly!) and DS always says 'yeah thats because i have a big brain!!'. Modesty is not a strong point however much i try....

Add me to the big head baby club. DD8 had a huge baby head. I have heard that big heads are related to PG, but I think it's pretty much anecdotal.....

lol... I don't really think head size is related to gt..... it's just funny how many gt kids have giant heads

we had to cut shirts to get him out a few times.....

right after he was born the Doctor said,"Look at the head on him!" and then tested him for inseffilaitse (Brain swelling)

told me all this and said, "I am happy to report that he just has a giant head."

Since my DS5's head has always measured 98%ile, I'll chime in...
The studies attempting to correlate IQ with head size have been mixed. Most of the data is old and suffers from bias of some kind. There was a study in 2003 correlating rapid gains in head circumference during the first year of life (i.e. going from 25-50%ile to 80%ile plus)with development of autism.

Interestingly, Einstein's brain weighed no more than an average man his size. This may be because he died at a rather advanced age (in his 70's I believe), and we know that there is a normal amount of shrinkage of the brain with age. BUT - Einstein had two notable differences - his biparietal diameter (measurement of the brain from one parietal lobe to the other) was significantly larger than average. The parietal lobe typically contains "association areas" where the brain makes sense and analyzes primary sensory inputs (vision, hearing, etc). So, perhaps Einstein was able to make more "associations" than the average person. Also, his brain had significantly more folds in it, which, phylogenetically is correlated with intelligence - humans have more folds in their brains than, say, great apes.

Here's the problem with Cranial Capasity - folks started measuring in the late 1800 with an eye toward proving that Europeans and their Decendents were 'better' and 'more intelligent' than folks from the rest of the world. So it's hard to even peek at that early stuff.

I googled around to find some 'science' and quickly found a linke to David Duke's Website ((shivers))

My best guess is that there is a tiny little correlation between baby head circumference and IQ within any particular group or gender. (Males who are destined to be 6 feet tall tend to have larger heads than females who's parents are both 5 feet tall, yes?)

One of the things that is sad, but must be faced, is that some of the US elite back about 100 years

(think 1870s, the Guilded age, Andrew Carnegie)

was 'into' eugenics, and wanted to 'improve' humanity by encouraging the smart successful ones to breed, and some went as far as to try to discourage the 'less desirable ones' from breeding (think of our Dear Margret Sanger - who did a lot of good, but we would be appauled, I think, to listen to her at the dinner table.) And some went farther....((double shiver))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

I read a book recently that pointed to the connection between the eugenics movement in England and the US and the theology of Nazi Germany. ((tripple shiver))

Anyway - lots of the money to fund early work on IQ came from those optomistic and naive times. So when you mention IQ to a teacher and he or she looks at you coldly, as if you are trying to commit a perverted crime of some kind, you are feeling the cold wind of those earlier times - even if the teacher themselves isn't consiously aware of the history.

It would be much more comfortable to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' and decalare that every child is gifted, than to have to take on that whole history and carefully pick through what we need to benifit from and what we need to stand up against. That's what I did, and it worked ok, until my son got to school age and I saw the suffering he had to face at such a young age. That was enough to motivate me to get out tweesers and start thinking about this ugly tangle -

Here's what I have figured out so far:

I believe that IQ test are measuring something real.

The best measure of 'if a child needs advanced work at school' is to set up the system so that every child get a chance to do the advance work and see how they do. Until we get there, IQs will be useful.

I believe that the IQ tests do underestimate, since they are a snapshot, but that it's quite rare that they overestimate.

I have met many people with amazing and delighful gifts that aren't measured by IQ tests. This is to be expected, since humans are so complex.

I don't support forced sterilization.

I believe that schools should be set up to teach all the children, not just the 99%.

I believe that personal freedom is more important that 'improving the species.' We get to pick who we mate with, ok? AND how many children we have.

I do believe that gifted people will often feel most complete when they spend at least some of their social time with other gifted people.

I believe that every child IS a gift, and that no one can know what the potential of any individual child is until they grow up and see what they will do with their lives.

I believe that the choices a young person makes has more to do with their success in life than their 'potential.'

I don't think it's useful to tell a certian group of children that 'the future depends on them' and not tell the rest of the kids the same thing. We had enough of that crazy talk during the Cold War, eh?

I believe that it the job of the parents - and the culture - to teach character.

For now, if parents need to also take on the job of overseeing education of their own child, then they must do so.

One way that children build character (not the only way) is by challenging themselves (or having the enviornment set up so that they are challenged) to learn material that is personally challenging.

Enough Ranting for now - Yes my Best GirlFriend called DS 'Charile Brown' when he was a toddler due to his headsize.

And BTW - I do come from a family of large headed people, not strickly correlated for IQ on a one to one basis, and I'm only 'large' not 'extra large' like my mom, DH, DS, and my mom's dad. Perhaps I was attracted to my DH, or at least not appauled by his circumference, because I was accustomed to it. ((shrug)) Who knows?

Grinity

I support everything you said, except that one.
We have friends with a mentally handicapped daughter who is now 35. She has lived in a group home for about 10 years now. They had her sterilized before allowing her to move into the home. (She wanted independence from her parents but couldn't live on her own.) She has a limited capacity to develop a long-term relationship, but she has full capacity to give and receive physical expressions of love. She does not have the capacity to care for the results of that ultimate expression of that physical love.

Then there are the women who I'd like to forcibly sterilize because they recklessly produce children with unknown men and with no means to support the child. Grrrrrr

Well, I luv both of ya, but I wouldn't touch that with an infinity foot pole!


Thanks for the hearty morning laugh, that was just awesome!

Grinity's thoughts here are like mine, I could never express them so eloquently, though.

The head size argument was also historically used as a reason to discriminate aganst women, since women in general have smaller heads than men. So obviously we're not as smart, right?

<sarcasm>

I have always understood brain folds to be the pertinent point to intelligence, not brain volume, just as Grinity suggests.

FWIW, my kids have relatively normal heads. Their whole bodies are on the big size--DS7 has always been 95th+ %ile for height and as a baby was always 95th %ile for weight. (Now he's a stringbean!) DS4 was never quite as big, but still always above the 75th %ile for height and also a heavy baby (who also leaned up as he got older). I think their heads were always in the 75th %ile or smaller.

So proportionally speaking, they probably have smallish heads, since their heads were always not-as-much-bigger-than-average as the rest of their bodies.

LOL! This one brings a smile to my face. I remember I used to call DS "giant head" when he was younger! I missed that!

I'll join the ranks. DH has an enormous head. When he played on softball teams and ordered the fitted hat, he'd have to get the biggest size, then have it stretched. So when we went in for our ultrasounds, I would always say "can you see if the head is big? I'm worried he won't fit." They of course said it looked normal. Of course DS didn't want to come out (so c-section after labor it was), the docs said big head was only part of the reason. But DS has always been top of head charts.

DH comes from a family full of big-heads. And they don't have just foreheads - fiveheads for all of them. I happily have an average sized noggin.

Interesting thread- our pediatrician told us early (when DS was about 3 months old) that head size was the best indicator of autism and that we'd have to really watch DS closely for the signs. They told us that for a whole year. He was born with a smallish head (and one month early and a very very long labor with a bad cone!) and ended up with a HUGE noggin. Huge. I buy adult size hats.

He also now just has a huge head...

This is turning into a funny and serious and strange thread!

laugh #2

when i was a kid my one of my nick names was "Block head" (you know from gumby)

I have a head shape.... and i kid you not, like a cinder block

every now and then, when i comb my hair a certain way, someone will ask me how i bumbed my head...... I have to admit, I was born that way.....lol

Both of my kids have huge heads. Older dd got "stuck" in my pelvis and need c-section. With the second we didn't even try :-)

All I know is that as I get older my head gets bigger, or is that just my forehead.

rotflmbo

Seriously, I really, really need to by DS12 a bike helmet, as his old one is so too small, but I'm putting it off because at age 8 he was in an adult Large.

When we got his Lacrosse Helmet around that time he was in a size that was larger than what most adult male Lax players were wearing.

Perhaps a catolouge is needed for big headed kids and adults? Maybe there already is one?

DH has a small head for a man.
I have a large head.

DD has a small head.
DS has a large head, larger than his older sister's in fact.

I don't know what to make of the data...

As for eugenics, I think it's a bad idea. Look at dog breeding. We selected dogs for what we thought were desireable traits but many breeds are now prone to problems specific to those breeds. Genetic diversity allows a species to be adaptable. We have no way of knowing which traits will be most valuable for humans in the future.

Not to wander off topic, but does it strike anyone else as weird that no one is breeding dogs for 'family-friendly' temperment? If I had the inclination to 'pick mates for dogs' I wouldn't be stessing the outer qualities, I be looking for the inner quailities!

Wow, this thread is beginning to make me feel uncomfortable. I just said my kid had a big head.

My kids all have relatively small heads, but each jumped from around the 25th percentile to near the 50th very quickly during infancy. By the time my third one came along, I was able to predict it in her. They aren't remotely autistic.

On the other end, my daughter has humongous feet. She's also very tall (predictions from age 2 are minimum 5'10"). Her first 18 months or so were characterized by growth spurts punctuated by occasional brief non-growth-spurt periods. It was amazing.

V.

Long time ago I read that the correlation between big head and gt is quite small. Here we go, I found the book.

Head size correlates 0.14 with IQ. (One would be a perfect correspondence between head size and IQ, zero would indicate no relationship whatsoever)

DS6 has a huge head in the 99%+. We got to the point that I had to take him back for repeated measurements to make sure he didn't have hydrocephalus. When DS4 got to that point, I was just told, "He is like his brother. It's genetic" DS4's head was a little bit smaller though but still easily in the upper 90%.

me too... thought it was some light hearted fun....

Now that I think about it, I remember times when my kids would eat and eat and eat, and we'd expect a big increase in vertical size. Yet baby didn't get bigger. Instead, baby would suddenly make cognitive leaps and gain new skills: it was brain growth! It was very trippy.

Val

I just have to stand up for the small-headed people of the world!!

DH and I both have fairly small heads, and we have advanced degrees in science. I could literally get away with wearing a child's size bicycle helmet if needed. But then again, it is in proportion to the rest of our bodies, which might be the answer here. Both DH and I are pretty thin and lanky creatures. My arms look like toothpicks. So small bones and a small head are just in proportion.

DS has inherited our bone structure. His head looks frighteningly small compared to most of his age mates. But then again, so does his whole body. Except for the tremendously big feet. (which he inherited from me!) Thanks for making me smile by pointing that one out, Val!

Okay, now everyone is going to be picturing me with a tiny head and arms, and big clown feet! Sad, but true!

Hey folks, if what I said makes you uncomfortable, just ignore part of it. I fully support my friends in their decision to have their mentally handicapped daughter sterilized. But the comment about some 'mothers' was a personal reaction I don't need to expound on here.

Btw, when I took GS9 to our family doctor when he was about 5 the doctor looked at him, looked at me, looked back at GS, looked back at me...and all I had to say was 'you should see his mother and other grandmother'. My head is average to slightly above average size. GS used to be teased terribly about his headsize. I told him he needed a head that big to hold all his brains. He has grown into it, somewhat.

Two out of 4 kids have very large heads. The other two are medium. All HG*. Biggest head kid has lowest IQ score. Looking at the other kids in the PEGS class, slightly higher percentage of big heads, but there are a few small ones.

All three of my children have heads less than the 50th percentile. My DD4 was around the 25% if I remember correctly from the last time it was measured. But then again my children are all pretty small in height and weight as well. Their bodies couldn't support big heads.

Okay, when I was in 9th grade, I joined the field hockey team at school. I needed cleats, so my mom bought me a pair. Problem was, we lived in a small town and the only shoestore only had a few pairs left. Nothing fit perfectly. We had to go with a pair that was about two sizes too big. I wore extra socks (it was freezing in New Hampshire anyway) and everything was fine, except for the fact that the shoes were quite obviously wa-a-ay too big. Someone nicknamed me "Submarine feet." It was all in good fun and I'm chuckling about it now.

Val

LOL! Yes it is good that we can laugh about it now! I remember going shoe shopping with my Mom in 6th grade for dress shoes. My feet were soooo big (how big were they?) that I was in something ridiculous like women's 8s then. The only styles they had in my size were these spindly high heel spikes that were rather inappropriate on an 11 year old. We searched everywhere for a pair of dress flats or modest 1/2 inch heels. Oh the problems of having gigantic feet.

Sounds like we need to be comparing shoe size to IQ! There may be more of a correlation between these two!

Oh yeah?!........... well when my daughter was a baby, she was so tall................

(HOW TALL WAS SHE!)

Her plotted point actually FELL off the chart(literally) at one point!!!!!!

hee hee hee

I hinted at it, but I'll say it outright: if the bodies of the kids are bigger than average, then it makes sense that their heads (and feet, for that matter...) will be, too.

Now, a small-bodied child with a bigger-than-average head is a different story. I think proportion matters. A tall, heavy kid with a big head is just a big kid. A short, lightweight child with a small head is just a small kid. <shrug>

On the bright side if you're into TV and movies, people with proportionally large heads for their bodies film well. Most TV and movie stars are walking lollipops: twiggy bodies and big ol' giganormous heads.

I can't wait to tell that to DH! How would you like to be a kid in the 70's with a gianourmous head when the Peanut's t.v. specials were so popular!

Dottie, DD8 can appreciate DD14's position!

I hear that!

Oh, and count me in on the long-limbed shopping tips, will you? DS7 is going to be taller than I am before he hits puberty, I'm pretty sure. (Granted, I'm short. But I'm not THAT short! He's just THAT tall!) His legs are already just a couple of inches shorter than mine!

And I fear that DS4 is close behind...

Cracked?

The Trio of Terror: Coming soon to a mall near you.

LMAO!

It sounds like quite a day of merriment to me! Fer sher!

-you are so bad!

Wow! That's three big head/hydrocephalus scare stories we've heard to day. That can't be common!

Let's see; big head, big feet, tall......Have we covered non-divorced parents and colicky baby yet? LOL!

Well, we're non-divorced, but the kids were not at all colicky. Please don't throw things at me, but DS7 slept through the night (meaning 6 hours at a single stretch) at 6 weeks and DS4 slept through the night at 8 weeks.

I think they're probably both engineers, though, so they both had that sort of personality from the start...Plus they're my kids, and I like my sleep!

it was a friend who said my DD had finally grown into her big head...

honestly, I hadn't noticed anything unusual -- size-wise that is.

And everyone remembers what Cowboy Curtis said:
"Big feet means...big boots!"

Same in our house: DS8 was up to 10 hours every night by 12 weeks, and his brother wasn't far behind. DD4 was slept for six hours for the first time at --- I swear --- ten days. She was uneven until about 2-3 months, but still. It was nice. Mom and Dad both like their sleep, so it's probably genetic.

When he was awake, DS8 made up for all the sleeping by being, shall we say, a high-maintenance baby.

Val

I'm kind of late posting here, but I wanted to let every one in on some research that has been taking place with brain size and autism. I can only find reference to one study in 2005, but I know I just read another study which confirmed the correlation.
Here is the 2005 article:

http://www.myomancy.com/2005/12/autism_mercury_

Like twomoose said, I've read it has more to do with making associations between the two hemispheres, and possibly the number of folds or wrinkles in a brain that determines intelligences.

The question isn't how big is the brain, but how big is the primary work it does to keep it alive. Whales or elephants require larger brains, because they are larger animals. The ratio of that brain to their body requires a lot of primary cortex use, directly using the brain to help move their muscles and sensory uses. Human brains have primary cortex, but we have a secondary and tertiary cortex that allows for additional processing....

We have a lot of brain matter that can't be explained by moving a muscle or sensory issues...Anyway, I don't know if this makes sense, but I just thought I'd add why brain size doesn't really relate to intelligence.

I dont necessarily think large head size=big thinker, however I glanced at the article and thought, it just seems to leave a lot in question as far as the loose conclusions it makes. Probably just one of those areas of study were there are just going to be more questions than answers for a long time to come.

There is presumably a difference between the healthy brain and its rate of growth,/range of size and rates of growth when there are problems. The article refers to large head size not present at birth - I can definitely tell you both my kids had huge heads when they were born

Our ped has always taken head measurements;
I imagine most doctors would look at head size from birth, if not earlier, and going forward to get a rate of growth. Spikes in that rate of growth would probably be a more reliable guage of any problems rather than just a single measurement.

We are a large headed family; I could make a case for large head size= clutter prone and easily frustrated...

DD has been 90% height, 95% weight, 164% head circumference for a long time. I was heartbroken when we'd go out and hear *every single day*, "What a beautiful baby BOY!" to my DD, even when dressed in pink from head to toe. She looked like Charlie Brown until her hair grew in. :-(

The autism link is well documented for babies with smallish heads that suddenly grow to a giant size.

Here's another study on head circumference and IQ:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/4/1486

Published online October 2, 2006
PEDIATRICS Vol. 118 No. 4 October 2006

The Influence of Head Growth in Fetal Life, Infancy, and Childhood on Intelligence at the Ages of 4 and 8 Years


Of couse it can just be hereditary, like big feet...

P.S. My FIL had a notoriously monster cranium through adulthood. He had to special order a motorcycle helmet which looked quite a bit like those original, old scuba globes. For what it's worth, he did have the highest score ever recorded (at the time) on his specialty medical board exams. He also definitely fell into the category of "clutter prone and easily frustrated." LOL!

Our 9m1w son is at 99% for length, 30% for weight, with a 99% head. He is pretty brawny, with very little fat.

He is walking now and from behind he looks like a cantaloupe with legs.

Thus, I have nicknamed him "El Melon con Piernas." or just "El Melon"

At 3, GS9's nickname was 'Caillou'(sp).

Austin,
A friendly reminder not to call your DS a melon-head within hearing range - afterall, he's probably listening ****and understanding!

Grins

Good point.

I'll bet he is listening, but on the other hand, I don't recall feeling bad about being called 'bowling ball' by my ddad. It was almost a point of pride.

You mean it's not good that we often shout "HEAD, MOVE!" ala So I Married an Axe Murderer...

DS still laughs hysterically when we say it and generally moves so he stops blocking the TV!

"Head so big it's got its own weather system..."
"Like an orange on a toothpick..."
"Gargantuan cranium..."
"Sputnik..."

Yes, we're a "Heed! New!" family, too. And DD has had curly red hair to boot.

Oh with the red hair... I'd never be able to resist!

My ds5 has a massive head.

I have his hair cut in a particular way to minimise it.

His statistics are:

Height: below 0.04th percentile

Head: 90th percentile!

Clothes size, age two

Hat size, age five or six. Often more.

When he was weaned the health visitor noted that he had dropped off the charts and sent him to a london teaching hospital to investigate why he was so tiny. They tested him for all sorts, including a scary few months looking at cystic fibrosis. They noted then that he had an enormous head. It is especially large over his ears!

How funny, DS always had a very large head. He is a big kid in general, was born 10lb 1oz and that was a week early. But his head has always been like 90th percentile. Thankfully the rest of him is around there too...but he could never wear those cute little hats. He is 4 and has to wear hats made for 12 year old practically. DH's hats actually fit him.

Funny thread. Mine too: had to buy him an adult size ski helmet at 4.

Thinking about this and the thread talking about whether physical precocity goes with giftedness: surely, "giftedness" will turn out, once we understand more, to have a multitude of different causes. I expect some will turn out to go with big heads, some with early walking, some with both, some with neither... Though we should also bear in mind the human tendency to spot patterns where none exist...

Oh my! LOL! That spread must be a (relative) record breaker!

My DS is tall and has a proportionate head, but he did tip over whenever we tried to get him to sit as a baby. He has a long torso and a skinny butt, so he had nothing to "anchor" him to the ground. In fact, "sitting independently" was never marked in the baby book because he really couldn't do until after he was walking! We'd set him down and then he would start screaming and then slowly lean to one side and then "plop." OK, we didn't do it a lot, but it was funny in a sad kind of way. Body proportions definitely play a role in development.

LOL on the cute babies tipping over because of their adorable big little heads. So sweet.