Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional SCAT

I am trying to remember the discussion/thread long long ago about above-level-testing and talent search.

Was it the SCAT that was considered a very good test? Or was there another one that was better?

sigh. there are sooooo many things to remember. I'm thinking about making the deadline on the 31 for the CTY program for Mite. I believe his WISC IV qualifies him, but want to make sure the SCAT will give us what we are looking for.

My DS took the SCAT in 3rd grade, It's very "aptitude" rather than "achievement." Easy because it's computer only, and "intuition" over computation.

CTY sounds good! Good luck! Call them on the phone if it's too hard, ok?

Trinity

We just got SCAT scores back last week. SCAT is the test designed by Johns Hopkins as an above grade level test. To qualify for the test you need a nationally normed test with a score (or sub score) in the 95th percentile or above. With this test in hand you can have your child take the SCAT which then looks at his ability against other children who scored in the 95th percentile. The child must qualify on the SCAT to be eligible for CTY programs. The national test is not enough. I think you need to be at least in the 50th percentile or above on the SCAT to qualify. I am not sure about the specific score.

My son took it in 2nd grade by computer and did poorly but because of his autism DX they allowed him to take it this year with paper and pencil in the RSP room of his school under the eye of a teacher he is comfortable with. This made a huge difference and he nailed the test this time around. There are still some courses left open. We will wait until next summer.

Before you can sign up for a course you will have to wait for the SCAT scores to be returned. This may mean this summer is too soon. My younger sister attended CTY as a teen. She has autism as well and enjoyed the program. She still talks fondly of it.

I'm glad you brought this up. I was going to ask if CTY allowed for accomodations. Mite needs an aide to sit with him and keep him on task.

He just finished some standardized tests on which last year he scored in the 31st percentile in math and 70th percentile in reading. We just got this years scores back. He was in the 88th percentile in math and the 99th percentile in reading!!!

He had a paraprofessional sit with him during the exam, which was on computer. She said she had to redirect him nearly every question, but that he would then look back with the correct answer. On the math test, she wasn't able to sit with him the last few questions...about 3-4 minutes she said. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

In the meantime, I'm having him do Aleks.com and an ITBS prep course that is done on the computer, to give him practice at taking a test on computer. I think that was the other thing that failed him in math....that and the para said he wouldn't use scratch paper but would just read the question, look up and to the left, look back at the computer, eliminate 2-3 choices then look back to the left and then hit the answer.

I keep telling them we have to eliminate writing in math as well as language arts, but will they listen??


So, I'm wondering if CTY will allow him an aide, too?

We missed the May 31 deadline and will watch for the new one now.

oh and we are thinking about using the CTY math course, if he qualifies, and having him opt out of math at school. That opens up time for them to work on other things and also gives him a better chance and progressing in math.

they Ihis IEP team) still think that because his WISC verbal score was soooooo high and his perceptual reasoning is sooooooo low (average really at 90 something) he is an idiot in math. I haven't been able to get them to understand he's pretty smart in math, too.

I have read through the CTY summer info and they talk of having a copy of an IEP when a child attends CTY. They seem more then willing to work with special needs children. I think they also did say that an aid was allowed but must be supplied by the parent.

The CTY young children's math is EPGY which is Stanford's software. Stanford is cheaper but the math is the same. Stanford and Hopkins use different software for algebra on up and we are not there yet so I do not know which is better.

Stanford has a lower eligibility criteria for distance programs. You only have to hit the 95 percentile on one test. You don't have to do the talent testing (SCAT or EXPLORE).

The talent search does help a great deal with the school. I have been going round and round about math acceleration for my son and I have received a flat NO. He also didn't do well on GATE testing so he doesn't qualify for that placement. I delivered the CTY testing results and everything changed. They school councilor said she is going to see if she can GATE qualify him based on his SCAT scores. Either way it will change his classroom placement next year. It holds a lot of weight. The councilor was very very aware of talent testing and was quite impressed with the score. I have been dealing with this for 3 years and this and finally things changed today thanks to CTY and the SCAT. People are not looking at me like a lunatic mother anymore. It was a nice feeling. Finally!

thanks.

what's the url for standford's program?

here is the url for anyone else interested

http://www.ctd.northwestern.edu/learning/apply.html

Actually that is another program which uses EPGY software. It is not the acutal EPGY website which is a part of the Stanford website. The URL is:

http://epgy.stanford.edu/

Willa,
Please tell me about this ITBS prep course.
Ania

That said, to clarify, he got an A in math this quarter in his gifted cluster math group and scored in the 81st percentile on the standardized test. This was without using a pencil and paper. Goodness only knows why he decided NOT to try and write the problems out. Plus when you look at last years scores...in the 31st percentile...then that 50 percentile point gain is amazing. I know he's quite good at conceptual math skills, but he has no rote memory ability. Rite was the same way. He just struggled in math for years because of rote memory issues, now he's skipped 2 grade levels and is considered the best in math in his grade. So, I'm just waiting for Mite to blossom, too.

The ITBS prep course isn't a course, really. It's a prep package you can buy online. I just googled that phrase and found loads of them ,but I can't remember which one we had. Ours was a cd course.

Hi Willa Gayle,
((applause))
Trinity

It's weird, how these little gains are so big for these little 2E folk and how educators just don't get it!

I know the 81st percentile does not indicate giftedness, but that much of a gain in 1 year, imo, does. Now he just needs exposure to higher levels of math to see if the spikes even higher. I believe that it will. His conceptual ability in math is phenomenal. It's the rote memory that kicks him in the pants when he's doing the calculations. I think the dysgraphia is why he doesn't like to write things out even when he can just do stuff on scratch paper, which was provided. He just relies on his head.

I think we'll see that spike as we hone the accomodations and coach him a bit on test taking skills.

Does anyone have any information regarding what types of questions are on the math portion of the SCAT?

Thanks

Thanks for the information. He is in the second grade, and yes, he did register through CTY. The booklet provided a couple of sample problems, but it was still somewhat unclear.

I just wanted to dive into here a bit to the SCAT test, as my 2e (aspie) daughter took it last summer and did well, and I was excited, and signed her up for a summer course (day) in Los Angeles.
I can only say, unfortunately, it was a nightmare. There was apparently a boy who picked on her incessantly during the class and yes, she's an aspie so is not so well-informed to these things, and I phoned and tried to deal with the JHU people and... nothing.
The people staffing the areas were college students and the teachers were possibly qualified for gifted training, but I saw no evidence of that for our specific teacher. Overall, there's no way any of these people had any 2e or asperger's training and I personally think any highly gifted education training so, caveat emptor. For us, our daughter was terribly unhappy and had every reason to be so. Maybe the online classes are good but I'd be leery of trying CTY again- it seems it's been watered down to the masses to make money. It was a huge enterprise, more like a daycare! I could tell a lot of those kids were just there because their parents put them there, not because of their own natural curiosities, (hence, bullying!) so again, I didn't feel at "home" here at all with a gifted child, I felt like I was in the SAT rat race with Middle America trying to get their kids into Yale and Harvard and the best Frats, meanwhile, my daughter just wants to study black holes, so it was a bad fit.
Hope this helps~

Hi Calizephr!
Welcome! Thanks for your frank impression of the program.

May I ask how your daughter did in comparison of the other kids who did SCAT as a talent search that year? Was she within a Standard Deviation of the middle clump or beyond that?

The reason I love LOG (Levels of Giftedness) is because it gives me the backing to avoid programs aimed toward Moderatly Gifted kids (the middle clump) unless they let him attend with kids a year or two older than he is.

We did very very well at SIG (day) when he was amoung the youngest in his grouping, and poorly the year after that. Poorly is an exaggeration, but it was a big dissapointment for him. the individual teachers at SIG had come back year after year and most seemed bood to great, but certianly not all. Another hint is to allow them to take classes in topics they haven't been exposed to, and steer clear of main interests and strengths. Sad, huh?

I do think that you have a right to be furious that they weren't able to be sensitive to your daughter's disability! I would call and write letters even now, and let them know how it went. Many MG kids are 'just right' being 'directed' by parents in their enrichment. Now that my son is in Middle School age (11) he is in full 'duck and cover' with his intellectual needs, and if I were to send him to CTY, he would look pushed, at least until the hoped for magic kicked in.

Smiles,
Grinity

I'm very sorry about your daughter's negative experience. What grade level was the program? I have heard many reviews of the CTY middle school and high school program, and they have all been very positive. People often use terms like, "life changing" when they summarize their CTY summer experiences. I'm looking into CTY for my 11 yo this year.

I've heard more mixed results for HG+ kids at SIG.

I think it just goes to show that there's variability in any program, and all we parents can do is gather the facts as best we can and try our best to find the right fit for our individual children.

Hi all..
She scored really high on the SCAT (and according to other tests as well is 2e HG), Grinity, so that might be the answer you were looking for. The grade level of this program was elementary level; I agree, I have heard great things about the middle school and high school programs. But also, Grinity, you know he 'looks' pushed, but isn't (but other kids are!) That's one of the things we have to deal with in education, I think. Cheers!

Ah Yesss!

The old "Balanced Push" - only the primary parent knows for sure, and how are they to trust themselves?

My guess is that you DD is at least a Standard Deviation above the other CTY kids in readiness level, so isn't going to do well with her agemates in that setting. (Although her non-support from the teachers is unconsiounable.) Does her disability heighten the "Goldilocks Problem?" Probably in some ways.

Although one of my 2E friends was able to handle High School classes in elementary school age because he didn't really care about fitting in socially, he just really wanted interesting learning material - and the high school students were kind and to him while the agemates were unreceptive. Sure he was a 'Mascot,' but for him, any positivity filled his social needs.

My DS has a long and complicated wish list of how he wants to interact socially with his grademates. IF he was in High School, I expect he would be heartbroken to not be treated as a total equal in all aspects. He can barely handle not being treated as the non-full-voting member that he is, inside our family! He acts deeply offended. Not sure if it's an attempt at manipulation or the real thing, but it's non-negotiable so I just ((shrug.))

Anyway, I wish you luck in the future, and hope that when the time comes to try again, she has a better experience. Have you seen the "Think Summer Institute?"

Grin

Is there any way for kids to practice before the test? Any particular books that may be of use? My son took the test last weekend, and I dont think he did well. He was out in 20 minutes pretty much having guessed all the answers! I would like him to retest, but this time hopefully with some practice.

Mom1999,
LOL, our son took the test in Feb 08 and finished each section in around 10 minutes for a total test time of about 20 minutes. I second Dottie, don't panic until you have the results I think a better indicator is how did you son feel when he came out of the testing?

Hi,
have you recieved the score yet?
My son took the test around the same time (June 6th).. Came out of the test in about 10 minutes and 15 minutes flat for each section. Now I am just waiting to hear from them...
Wondering if he needs to re test how long should we wait ?