Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional New Insights and Neurofeedback?CAUTION REALLY LONG

Hey guys, Jake again. In case you don't remember me I made a post about a year and a half ago called "Read Thoroughly and Answer Honestly" (if you feel like digging it up).

I am now a college sophomore at x-university (above average state school) and I guess maturity has given me a new perspective on a lot of things.

First of all, I read over my old post and I noticed the language was very colorful and conveyed a kind of desperation. That was then, when I was a frustrated high school student still weighed down by the four lousy years before. I think I can safely say that I was being melodramatic and every qualitative description I made in that post was pretty exaggerated.

Qualifier out of the way, I can move onto my new takes on things.

Since I graduated I've started reading up on Executive Function. I know it serves as the brain's manager, regulating learning and reasoning, etc. I also know it's affected in almost every kind of learning disability. Although I still do not fit any distinct diagnosis and my difficulties are very slight, I can't help but think that the problems I do have suggest my executive isn't functioning smoothly.

To start, my memory is very inconsistent. Even as I write this and make an effort to recall information to support my argument, I am having limited success. Some things I can recall perfectly even though I never payed attention while hearing/seeing them and others, even if I am completely aware of them, escape my memory just moments after I experience them.

This memory problem doesn't pertain only to bits of info like facts, sounds, pictures, etc. but to whole processes. The other day I was out eating lunch with my girlfriend and I was stressed about a problem we were having. When it came time to pay for the meal, I tried to sign the check before I even gave them my credit card. The sudden disappearance of basic skills like this, even though I was stressed, is very disturbing to me.

Altogether my observations about my recall have begun to answer some of my questions about my school performance. I believe I often forgot how to solve problems in math/science classes that came naturally to me before I had to answer them in class/on tests, etc. In foreign languages I could sometimes remember large lists of words and acquire grammar intuitively, but other times I wouldn't remember anything I learned. In both these examples, I would apply reasonably consistent effort but my retention was drastically different.

Another problem I have is an inconsistent flexibility when it comes to problem solving. Some days I am able to procure wonderful ways of dealing with what life/school dishes at me but on others I am clobbered by it. I feel like I am only able to look at problems from a few angles, preventing me from even running into the mindset that might offer the solution. This pertains to school, every day activities, and even video games. The term my research uses is "mental set", which I believe is the paradigm necessary to reach a solution to a problem.Speaking along those lines, I use a very limited number of mental sets and have difficulty making new ones, leading to inefficient solutions, or none at all.

Together, these two problems wreck havoc on my ability to quickly learn new material, an almost universal sign of "giftedness". Specifically, I might not be able to recall the background knowledge prerequisite for the new concept being taught, or if I do, be able to see the "master plan" in which the ideas will fit together. Countless times I will revisit a topic I spent much time on and had difficulty understanding, and without any effort on my part it will just "click". I cannot control when or if the "click" will happen at all, leading to massive frustration.

I believe I wrote my IQ test score in last post I made, but just to remind you all I scored a 137 FS with a 132 VIQ and 135 PIQ, and I think superior processing speed and above average working memory. My lowest score was a 10 on digit span and I had some 12's and 13's on things like similarities, the block thing(lol), and the thing putting events in order. Everything else was 14+ and I hit the ceiling on 2 parts I believe.

With this new perspective, I believe my lower scores(which actually arent low at all)can be explained by the two factors discussed above. My performance on the timed tasks was most likely slowed by an inability to change appropriate mental sets quickly enough even though I scored like a 16 on coding.(which supports my theory about quickly changing mental sets) This also appeared as a rigidity when it came to categorizing things(similarities). Obviously I was not lucky enough to have a "good brain day" for my test and my memory was crap.

All in all, my success is basically reduced to my luck of having a day where I am both flexible and good with recall.It took me all 4 years of high school to come to terms with this fact, but I am ready to take it on now.

Once again, I would simply like insights on what I have written, maybe you will catch an issue my tunnel-vision has kept from me. =p

If anybody here knows a lot about neurofeedback, would you be kind enough to tell me if it has a chance of helping me with these problems?

Thanks so much,

Jake

So is this a sudden problem, a new issue for you? Or is this just how it has always been to be you? You used the term "sudden disappearance of skills," but you also indicate that this was a problem for you during your 4 years of high school.

A new problem could indicate that you should see a doctor. It might be a physiological problem that recently developed.

If it's business as usual, then one of two things could be operating, depending upon the severity of the problem: 1) you might need to see a specialist in executive functioning, though I'm not sure who specializes in that area; or 2) it might just be normal.

I'll defend normalcy: I often feel like I could do more if only my brain would keep up with me. Especially if I'm thinking about other things or stressed or not getting enough sleep, I forget things or make mistakes like the kind you're describing. I don't think that's unusual.

Sometimes things seem hard to me, and I'll work on them for a while. Then I give up and walk away, only to find that I get it very quickly the next time I look at it. My theory is that my subconscious keeps working on the problem after my conscious brain has given up and gone to bed. So it's not that my conscious brain isn't working, rather that my subconscious mind works extra well! I have just used this to my advantage: study the hard thing before bed, then study it again when I wake up. My "click" moment usually kicks in pretty fast in the morning. Not always, but usually.

I guess I'm saying that while there might be a problem for you that requires attention, I'm not 100% sure that what you're experiencing is unusual. The general ability to learn new material easily that accompanies GTness does not mean that you'll have an easy time learning *everything*, and it doesn't mean that you'll learn it on the time frame that you wish. Nor does it mean that you won't forget where you put your keys or what you had for lunch earlier in the week. Some of that is just life as a human being.

I feel like you're assuming that GTness equal perfect performance, and that's not the case. (No offense intended!) We all still have bumps and glitches in our daily lives. We just work around them and do our best.

HTH!

Thank you for your take on the topic Kriston. I asked myself the same exact questions when I first noticed these distinct patterns back in high school. I always knew that there was always a normal level of variability in my performance, awareness, etc. on any given day.But my variability would leave me extremely competent on some days and completely lost on others. I was hesitant to call it anything but me not having my act together and so I worked extra hard to try to correct these problems, which I dismissed as the result of "poor self-discipline" and "distractibility".



Even with this effort, I could not achieve the A's I wanted so badly, even in subjects where tests revealed I was clearly gifted. (I scored 145,146 in broad math,reading respectively on WJ) At the time I still had an IEP for a diagnosis which still remains unknown to me today, and every year my family was coerced to declassify me because I was not qualifying for special services. I was completely lost to the source of my difficulties, since the reevaluations given to me didn't identify a learning disability or cognitive glitch or anything.

My theory is that my subconscious is very crappy. It does not sort things that I learn very well. I need to work very hard to organize new information that I learn and make sure it sticks the way it should. Unless I review something every single day I will begin to forget it. Thus, when long assignments for one class prevent me from studying for another class, I begin to fall behind in the other class. Studying for tests becomes reviewing old chapters in addition to new ones so I will remember the skill which the new material is based on.

"Sudden disappearance of skills", as I mentioned in the previous post, is a problem I've had all my life. I forget definitions of words I've used my entire life, sometimes even simple ones which gives the impression of me being tonguetied. Some days I will forget how to turn on my turn signal or windshield wiper, which makes me seriously doubt my driving ability. I don't think this is garden variety cluelessness. When I was younger I would forget how to tie my shoes and I couldn't ever remember my multiplication tables. Academically this is a big unknown because I am not sure if I will forget the events of a book we just read, or the chain rule in calculus, and not even be aware that I forgot them.

I do not expect perfection from giftedness. In fact, I would be happy with even moderate success which definitely does not require giftedness. I posted here simply because I don't want to be criticized for seeming "ungrateful" by parents of LD children if I posted on an LD board. I am not even discussing a potential/performance discrepancy in most of my previous post. I am describing skills I lack that seem to be present even in a person of average intelligence.

I am regularly clueless to where I put my car keys and I can't even remember what I ate for dinner last night. Most "absent minded professors" encounter these issues but are completely cogniscient of their topics of interest, while I can't even remember information which I find interesting or important on certain days.

I am sorry if I am not presenting this dilemma in its full depth. The best examples may escape me as I am searching through my memory for them. I would like to add briefly that this kind of "cluelessness" runs in my family. My dad is a brilliant lawyer but sometimes forgets basic principles of the law and will get stuck for days when he cannot open his mind enough to see the answer to something.

Hope this helps,

Jake

If you feel it is interfering with your ability to succeed, and especially since you have a diagnosis and an IEP from your younger days--which you should know about, it seems to me, especially in the light of your current concerns! Ask your parents!--then perhaps a trip to a specialist is the best thing for you.

If you have/get a diagnosis, even college professors will work with you to support your learning. Perhaps you can arrange to have open book tests or the use of one page of notes so that you won't forget something? But you will need a diagnosis for that, or no one will go for it.

I guess I'd recommend that you see a specialist, preferably after you've been informed of your earlier IEP. If it's a problem, then you need to follow up.

Best wishes!

If it's highly disturbing to you and gets in the way of your success--yes, seek out answers (parents, specialists). One thing that went through my head reading your posts was "normal variability". Some days we're "on" and others not-so-much. I hope I don't simplify things too much, but there were definitely days of insight and cleverness, mixed in with a whole bunch of mmmmmmm (white noise) days. In the workforce, I felt it a lot and people I worked with definitely had their "on" days.

That's what I thought, too, Cym. I forget where I put stuff a lot. I regularly forget names of authors, even names of friends if I'm put on the spot and have to introduce them. That's the surest way for me to forget a name! The other day, I even turned the wrong way to get to a friend's house--I just couldn't remember where on the road it was! I was running late and stressed, and I was coming at her house from a different direction than normal. But I actually had to call home to have my DH check the address because I couldn't find her house! I felt so dumb!

I've always had that kind of absent-minded tendency, and I don't think I have any sort of diagnosable problem per se. I just write stuff down whenever possible so I can remember things better.

But with that said, I do think only the person in question can say if there's something interfering with daily life. If it is, then a check-up is called for. There can be a fine line between normal and problematic, and what seems not too far from standard to us may be a much bigger problem for the person in question.

<shrug> If you can afford the co-pay, there's no harm in seeing a doctor!

ummmm um call me crazy..... but have you thought about your diet? and your sleeping pattern? I say this because I have a good friend who is gifted, when she was young she noticed that every time she ate wheat, or wheat products, she became foggy. She was tested and discovered that she is slightly allergic to wheat. As far as sleep goes, it's pretty well documented, you need it or you can't think straight.

Try charting everything you eat for a month or 2 and how much you sleep. Also note what days and times your on and what days and times your off. See if you can find a correlation.

Good point iejoysoup! I have heard about diet being very key in misdiagnosis of ADD. I personally have a strict diet of carbohydrates & fats (unvaried since high school--no one can understand how I don't blow up into a balloon with my calorie intake) and wonder how clear-headed and brilliant I'd be with healthful foods.

Jake, I would start with the records to review the IEP info. You mentioned you are a sophomore at college? As an adult, you have a right to access that info now. The question is, can you find it.

I had some questions like you do, when I was about your age and I contacted the school for records. Luckily they still did have them. Not sure if length of time held varies from state to state. You might want to contact your school disstrict superintendents office to inquire and go from there.

If you are able to access the records I would advise that you take everything with a grain of salt. I'm sure the people involved were doing the best they could with the info. they had. It's just been my experience that many school personnel are very out of their element when dealing with children in the 99th%. It is, by it's very nature, atypical.
Perhaps you can use the records as a clue towards solving a larger puzzle and go from there.

I fully support your quest for self knowlege at this stage of your life, I think it's very healthy.

There could be a variety of reasons for the difficulties you have described. Yes, a highly intelligent person could have "learning disabilities". You posted that you hesitated posted at an LD site. I do think you have good instincts in that regard. I'm not sure you would have been seen as ungrateful, but maybe it's just that I'm not sure you would find what you seem to be looking for. It's really hard to diagnose/self-diagnose something as specialized as a potential processing disorder online, being as intelligent as you are makes it that much more complex, IMO.

Perhaps you can start by creating a bullet point list of the instances that bother you the most; things that just don't seem right.

Take some time and consider where you want to go from there. If you decide to see a doctor, which kind? General Internist, nuerologist, psychologist? Anxiety is common among gifted people, especially the high giftedness your scores reflect. Anxiety can affect processing and performance. That's just one example, there are many many things that can cause the difficulties you mention and it may be a journey to figure it out.

Lastly, if it were me..........I would probably be careful about which doctors I chose to go to. Unfortunately you can't assume that all specialty doctors are automatically HG/HG+ and have a lot of experience dealing with your complaints.

If you could possibly find a doctor that has experience with issues of HG, is very patient and likes a challenge or likes to get to the bottom of a "mystery", that might be a good place to start.

I started a journey such as yours about your age.....It was a good time in my life and I wish you much success. I'll be cheering for you.

I had some similar difficulties with my memory as a child and as an adult but I always tested well so it didn't look like I had a problem. I could almost always focus really well while taking a test for some reason.

The problem that I had was something that is probably not considered a learning disability but I felt that it affected my ability to learn and function in life. I had the good brain days where things clicked easily and then those days where I must have been operating on autopilot and I wasn't paying attention to things going on around me and I had difficulty concentrating on anything. I learned to take a lot of notes just in case something didn't stick in my brain. One of the reasons I was so worried about my son's difficulty with handwriting was that I relied on my notetaking ability so much.

My problem was anxiety. I didn't even to be actively worrying about something for it to affect me. Thoughts and fortunately sometimes solutions would often just pop in my head when I tried to focus on other things. I wondered at those times if I had some kind of anxiety induced ADD. It was something I had to learn to live with.

Okay, here's an example. DD's vision processing is also linked to memory. We are just learning about this, so bear with me. One of the things that was difficult for her to do was remember a group of images and then recite back after the picture went away. EX: a pear, a watch, a shoe, a dog, a fork.

Since DH and I love to debate whose family is responsible for these little glitches... We debated it one night after the kids were in bed.

We ended up pulling up an online "test" that would show about five pictures in a row for about 30 seconds. Let's pretend it was the above example. DH did it. The screen went blank and then he recited the list correctly. Then I did it correctly. But DH said, wait you didn't do it. Sure I did, I said, I just recited it in the correct order after the screen went blank. Well he brought to my attention that while I was watching the images, I started saying it under my breath: a pear, a watch, a shoe, a dog, a fork, a pear, a watch, a shoe, a dog, a fork, a pear, a watch, a shoe, a dog, a fork etc. Then when the screen went blank, I simply repeated it again.

So did I do the "test" correctly or not?

Thank you all for your insights and advice. I am really grateful to receive not only feedback, but warmth when it could've easily been censure.

I'm sorry if I've only been providing glimpses into my circumstances. I tend to get fixed on only one aspect of something and so I ignore the other parts and cause myself a lot of grief.

I spoke with my mom and read the IEP papers as suggested. What I found interesting is that in half of the battery of tests given to me as a 2nd grader, I did not score in the gifted, or even superior range. This comes with the qualifier that I became frustrated or overstimulated very easily during many of the tests and I believe the stress carried over into others that didn't bother me as much.

Ironically, my achievement test was much higher than my IQ test, the WISC-III. It was inconclusive with a 135 VIQ and 100 PIQ. I know the IQ>ach. discrepancy is very common, but I can't fathom how my IQ wouldn't be considered gifted but my achievement scores point to an HG level of functioning.

As far as diagnosis, they labeled me as a very ambiguous "Multiply Disabled Student" and never once used a specific acronym, even for the sake of comparison. During the conclusion of the report when I assume my difficulties would be summarized, they simply stated that I was a "Multiply Disabled Student".

The content of the report was far more focused on my classroom behavior than it was on my academic problems. They stated that I was a highly sensitive and self-critical child that would become frustrated at any challenge. My teacher who was interviewed for the report stated that I seemed like a very bright child that had occasional glitches which bothered me more than they concerned her. The school psychologist suggested that I had Aspergers because I had a difficulty relating to kids my age. She based her entire impression on the fact that I rocked when I became upset and that I wasn't really interested in socializing with kids because they couldn't discuss hacking video games or genetics with me.

I have considered Aspergers in the past as a possible explanation, but the symptoms which plagued me at that age subsided too quickly without any kind of intervention. As far as I know, you can't just have Aspergers and then get better from it.

As a toddler I had a balance problem and ran into things a lot. However, I had OT for a year and it never was a problem again. I later studied martial arts and placed in some competitions. I am also able to play the hardest songs on DDR while the actual Aspergers-diagnosed students in my school couldn't even complete a basic song. Rocking(as I said above) is the only stereotypical behavior I have ever demonstrated. I still do it now, but only in the highest level of privacy.

I was never obsessive but I tended to perseverate on things that bothered me or caught my attention. When something particularly stung, I would ruminate about it for days. This perseverance would sometimes lead me away from the main point of something, what my teachers described as "not seeing the forest for the trees". However, as I entered high school I was overwhelmingly a "big picture" person and I am still horrible with details. As you know from my previous posts, my VIQ/PIQ discrepancy closed and on the most recent test I took, PIQ surpassed VIQ.

One telltale symptom of Aspergers that I never had though was the social cluelessness. I always understood the social conventions of whatever age I was even though I found them immature. I was always able to figure out why people did things the way they did, and always knew what and what not to do to offend or bother others. Though I've always appeared eccentric to others, they have never doubted my ability to socialize. I have a large number of both acquaintances and close friends, 100% of whom are "neurotypical".In fact, I often give advice to those less socially-savvy ones. I know how to flirt and I am pretty decent at securing hook-ups. I have also had several genuinely romantic relationships both in high school and college in which I knew how to handle emotions appropriately. For all intents and purposes, I do not consider the autistic symptoms I once had to define me as a person and I simply consider myself an "eccentric neurotypical".

I know that I am genetically disposed to something like this, since my dad's brother is a high functioning autistic and his other brother has a severely autistic son. However since about middle school psychologists haven't diagnosed me with Aspergers upon consultation and say that I am in a normal range of functioning in every area. Thus, almost all of the Aspergers issues I find on LD sites are impertinent to me.

As I said before, I still believe executive functions are a weakness of mine and account for the great variability of my performance on different days, ranging academically from acing a test to failing it, or intuitively understanding a lecture to getting nothing out of it. With my past issues as a backdrop, it wouldn't surprise me if my executive functions are lacking.

Once again, thank you for readjusting your perspectives as new information surfaces (either from documents or my jumbled memory)
and I am sorry if I appear to not acknowledge your suggestions (I am considering them, I just want to fill in more unknowns for everybody helping me out!)

Jake <3

So did reading that report give you any of the answers you were looking for?

Are you trying to make sense of your previous schooling experience to put your college experiences(academically and socially) into perspective?

Are you trying to determine if you have an executive funcion issue and looking for an answer on how to handle it?

both of those.

Well, Jake, the first thing I'll say it that it's taken 20 some years to get where you are. I'm not sure you will be able to resolve all of it in a short time.

Meaning, I'd recommend that while you look for answers, you continue to focus on your studies. I'm confident you will end up resolving your concerns. You seem to be asking all the right questions, just prioritize and make sure your main focus remains on graduating college.

If you want to determine if you have an executive function issue, I would probably start with a nuerologist, perhaps one that works with learning disabilities. I don't remember having medical insurance or a lot of cash in college, could your parents help you with this?

If you can see a specialist you may want to check out your state or local gifted organization for recommendations. It might be helpful to look for a doctor who has some experience dealing with the little "nuances" that come with being gifted.

Concerning the present, school, let me ask: Do you do better on essay exams or multiple choice? Do you find that you think you are prepared for the test only to get it back and wonder how you got a much lower grade than expected?

Neato

Its very easy to for me to get distracted and then because I can focus very hard on the distraction and want to study it 100%, I lose context in the lecture or with more pressing tasks. If something is really boring, its easy to let the mind wander.

Here is what I have learned to counter that.

To get the most out of something critical, I have a procedure I follow.

Studying, test-preparation, work projects, etc. I follow the same process. I have these processes written down and look them up to refresh myself and I update them if I find something new. When I deviate from these processes, I run into grief. If I stick to them, I get 100% on tests and knock peoples' socks off.

Because I follow a process and track where I am, I can drop the study session or the work project, indulge my curiosity, then get right back on track. I know where I am and how long it will take and what is left so I can meet my obligations. I am not afraid of pulling all nighters and know I can multi-task as well. The strict planning is my crutch.

Another term I have heard is, "Plan the work and work the plan."

My wife loves the "Seven Habits of Successful People." You could also look that up.

There is a "test" of executive functioning:

http://www3.parinc.com/products/product.aspx?Productid=BRIEF

It is for ages 5-18 though.

Maybe I left out a fact that's somewhat important...when it comes to essays I go through hell organizing my ideas and choosing my words. In fact, it wasn't a cakewalk writing all of these really long posts, especially when it came to sounding coherent AND including the stuff I wanted to say. Just like in school essays I remembered additional stuff I wanted to say in these posts, only after it was already too late. If we go by what is too late, then I rarely finish in-class essays on time, although I have been able to in college by sacrificing clarity and making "slippery slope" arguments.(which usually work!)

As far as scores on mult choice vs. essay exams... In the past I usually got marked down for not finishing essays so I had a lower maximum # of points I could even earn from the start. Even though the ceiling that existed on essay exams wasn't there for multiple choice ones, I would still score all over the place.

I have gotten to a point where I never think I am prepared for a test because I just don't know if everything will work itself out in my mind. In the past I would study as much as I needed to get something but then when I saw a similar question on a test I would just lock up and not know how to answer it at all. I thought I had test anxiety and taught myself relaxation techniques to not "lock up" in these situations, but now I just stare calmly in confusion at my paper instead of anxiously lol...
The sensation I can liken it to best is having a washing machine in my head. Everything gets moved around at a rate beyond my control, the place something ends up is rarely the same place that I put it to start, and I can't stop it at will and try to get a bearing of where everything is.

I've gotten somewhat dismal about the usefulness of controlling my anxiety; it seems like it doesn't really do much but put me in a better mood. It doesnt improve my ability to think at all. The difference is one of being held at gunpoint when you're calm and when you're tense- either way you're still being held at gunpoint.

I am frugal enough at college to live on about $200 a semester, meaning I have several grand at my disposal which I saved from summer jobs.However, I need to know my chances of actually making improvement before I shell out money to quacks who charge sky high fees to just pass me along to the next guy in the chain.
I have seen three psychologists in the last 10 years,
two of them gave me empty advice, one of those two tried to call me the "Aspergers miracle child" and claim that HE helped cure me(every session he would just lather me in praise..that was a waste of money). The one I see right now was somewhat eccentric as a youth himself, so he has been very useful in gauging the long-term impact of some of my traits. However, he seems to believe that everything I describe are normal glitches that anybody can have. He says they might be a bit more pronounced because of my atypical brain profile.

Jake

Jake, I think you have some very interesting insights...I hope you're studying psychology

Jake

I have been skimming this thread today. I get the same thing, but when streessed. Multitasking can be an issue. However when focused things are great. I can even multitask when I feel in control. What you describe seems normal to me. Do most of our issues on memory occure while under stress. And converserly do you seem to do better when focused and engaged in an activity you like, or find motavation to do.? Just a WAG on my part.

Edwin

Jake,

I think I *see* you if that helps. I also think that anxiety can mess with your ability to retain and process info. It sounds like you are a very high functioning person dealing with these issues, that actually takes a lot of work/energy that your brain could be utilizing for other tasks you may be having more trouble with.

I'm sorry you aren't having as much success with psychologists as you would like. I really think you're going to have to find one that is smarter than you. To be blunt, that may pose a challenge.
We take our kids to psychologist that specializes in gifted to assess for giftedness. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't seek out a professional that specializes in gifted/highly gifted.

I'll also suggest you take all and any evidence of any learning disability or cognitive functioning difficulty and schedule a meeting with your guidance counselor. Ask if there is any way they can help you. There could be resources available or perhaps you would be allowed extra time on essay tests, etc.

Hope this is helpful. Feel free to p.m. me if you wish.

Neato