Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion no testing until 3rd grade???

The school board had said they were going to get all parties together for our meeting. (I posted about it last week) Now, after I have spoken with the school psychologist, principal, teachers, they said they don't test until 3rd grade. That is fine, but why have me make all these calls, get the run-around from the school, etc, just to tell me they don't test until 3rd grade.

Wouldn't it have been more efficient if the 1st person I spoke to told me they don't test until 3rd grade?

I am just venting. I have encountered such disorganization & misinformation with this school district.

Has anyone else gone through this? And, is the not testing until 3rd grade standard in all states? Or just Florida?

Thanks
Jen

normally they say that iq tests shouldn't be given before 8 years old.... not sure why?

That being said, they tested my son when he was 5. We live in NY state. They can't call him gifted in our district until he is in 4th grade. But, because if they didn't give him enrichment he would sit and do nothing, he is getting enrichment. Only because the teachers and the principal are going out of there way to make it happen.

Hi Floridamom,

Our school in Ohio tests everyone in 3rd grade. But they routinely test individuals if a teacher recommends it. The teacher recommendations can start as young as kindergarten. It is a bit of a joke here, though, to have a first grader in the gifted program, since they don't provide any additional services until 3rd grade. So after going through all the tests, paperwork, and emotional strain in order to get our son into the gifted program, nothing different occurred. We had a nice piece of paper that said congratulations on being accepted to the gifted program, but no extra services were provided until the rest of the pack was tested in 3rd grade.

The school did provide pullout reading programs in 1st grade (20 min. per week), and pullout reading and math in 2nd grade (40 minutes per week). But they were based on teacher recommendations and not on test scores, which my son would have had without all the testing. In fact, the school sat on the testing results (DS hit the ceiling hard on the Cog At and scored grade levels higher than his present grade on the Iowa Basic Skills Tests) and never thought that maybe this kid needed to be accelerated by a grade???? Things did not improve until DS's second grade teacher decided that he should not be in second grade.

I don't want to depress you, Floridamom. But if you want to fight for testing (and I think you probably should), then at least make sure that the school will use those test results to address educational concerns. We made the mistake of assuming that the school would look at the test results and use them in some appropriate matter.

It sounds to me that your school is throwing up road blocks in order to make most parents give up if gifted services are hard to come by. And schools do run into a great many parents who believe that their little prince or princess is gifted. The difference is that: 1) Most MG parents are relatively happy with what is being provided in the school and are willing to wait until 3rd grade, and 2) The school assumes that they are doing a great job keeping the majority of the kids challenged. The problem seems to occur when your child is so far outside of the normal distribution that the school does not recognize that a problem exists. In this case, I think, it takes some time for the school to recognize how different your child is. But the only way they see that is either though testing or by having a teacher strongly advocate for you. For us, it took the latter.

Thanks everyone. DS6 is in a private school, which is good about subject acceleration. His teacher is great, although it has only been a few weeks. The question she asked me the other day, "Why do you want to have him tested?" I was a bit stumped. I mean, I am now asking myself the same question. What actually changes after your child has been tested & is identified as "gifted"? I know & you all know that these children have special needs, but what really changes with their education? What are the special services that he is entitled to? I guess this is where I am not informed.

Also, the teached did mention that it is alot of work for her once we decide to go ahead with testing. She said they give her a huge packet & she must spend alot of time observing him & then filling out these forms regarding his behavior, etc. She said it is alot of work & if I knew he was gifted, why did I need a peice of paper?

So, after all this, my main question to all of you is...

What changes when he is identified as gifted by this test?
What benefits will he get from this peice of paper?

Thanks
Jen

Hi Jen,
It's great that you are asking yourself these questions. It doesn't sound like any changes will take place bases on the designation, but perhaps it would protect you if you wanted to consider a switch to public school in the future.

For example: Lets say that a new boy moves to your son's school, and decides he wants to bully your son. Everything you try to get the school to end the behavior fails. You request that the boys be seperated next year. The school is small and can't comply. You might be ready to try the public school. If you have the paperwork, then you can at least talk to the public schools and see what they offer.

For example: For reasons totally beyond your control, you have to move far enough away that a change in school is nescessary. If you have the paperwork, and some idea of LOG, you have a head start in trying to find a new school, and you have some idea of how much of a priority to make finding a school that will truly meet your son's needs.

But there is no national policy, or even theoretical agreement on the following:
'what is gifted'
'what kinds of gifted are there'
'what must we do for gifted'

none
zero
ziltch

So, you may want to thank your stars for the school's flexibility and drop the matter.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Floridamom,
Yes, in Florida the school district MUST test if there is a need starting in K.
I faced similar foot dragging for both of my kids who were tested. But in the end they must test if your child meets certain criteria including strong recommendation from his teacher, a checklist of gifted characteristics and score of 99% on the SAT-10. Every school district has a diff process so find out what you need to do to qualify for the IQ test.
Florida has a gifted mandate to identify and offer services to gifted children from K through 12. It does not matter what services your particular school offers or what age they start their gifted program.
And it really doesn't matter if it creates more paperwork for the teacher or what you will do with the information down the line.
Have you checked out the fldoe site?
http://www.fldoe.org/BII/Gifted_Ed/

Allow me to vent a bit, but as a so-called professional in her field, she should know the answer to these questions. That she doesn't is a clue to you that you'll have to find a way to dance around her ignorance and educate her about her own field in a way that doesn't make her feel ignorant.

Sorry, but I can't imagine a special ed. teacher saying something this rude about a kid with an IQ of 65. Americans are getting good at discriminating against intelligent people. <end of rant>

I guess I recommend that you explain that the piece of paper isn't the point. Your son learns faster than most other students and he may not be challenged at his current level. Sustained lack of challenge can lead to poor study skills and students who later shut down/don't try when they finally take classes that aren't easy for them and they don't "get" something immediately. This can lead to underachievement.

The ease of early learning can lead to a mistaken belief that everything should come easily. This can be problematic when a student hits a subject that requires focused thought when something is not immediately understandable and sustained practice --- two vital skills that aren't learned when everything comes easily. I believe that students in this situation can decide that the subject is just too hard or "I'm not as good at it/smart as those other kids who do better than I do." These kids just don't have a concept of having to go and really *study* and think hard and not get it for a while.

Private schools depend on tuition payments to keep their doors open, and this is probably a factor in making them more receptive to the needs of bright kids. Good luck, and you have my sympathies.

Val

Three cheers, Val. The eloquence of your rant is sublime!! Can I rent you out sometime to rant at my DS's school for me, if the occasion should occur???

I think that the points that you make are terrific, Val. It boils down to the discriminatory belief that all gifted kids will be just fine on their own, and that they can make their way without any additional help from anyone. I would be tempted to buy a copy of Genius Denied or Karen Rogers' book for the teacher, if you think she would spend time reading it. Remember, that if a teacher teaches for 30 years, with 28 kids per years, she might never see a kid with IQ<= 145. (28x30=840, and kids with high IQs are 1 out of 10,000). So your child's teacher and the school may not have ever seen a child who needs more educational resources than the typical kid.

That is where the need for testing begins. After the testing, you have to educate the educators on what the test results mean. Then you have to sit on their doorstep and refuse to go away until they do something about the test results.

As a parent, stop and think about what the perfect school would give to your child. Think of that as the utopia of education... unrealistic here is our underfunded world. But it is a good exercise to see how far away your child's current education is from that utopia. If it is not too terrible far off, i.e. if your child's school is open to subject accelerations or other enrichments, then learn to maneuver quietly in the system to get what you want. If it is very far off from what you child needs, then you are going to have to roll up your sleeves, dig around for what you school is required to provide, and start having a lot of friendly chats with the school.

But you need to know 1) what you want for your child, and 2) what the school will provide for you child. And until you get some data that shows the school that your child is different from most of the ordinary kids that play on their swings and read their books, those conversations will not happen easily.

Thanks! Yes, I'm available as a Rent-a-Ranter (reasonable rates, first rant free).

I agree that kids with IQs over 145 are very rare and many teachers won't ever meet one. Yet kids with IQs <60 are just as rare and educators do learn about the needs of this group, and schools sometimes even give them personal aides or pay tuition to send them to private schools to meet their needs.

Not to mention that people with IQs over 130 comprise 2% of the population and are therefore ubiquitous. So I just can't give schools and teacher training systems a pass here. If they have a responsibility to understand the needs of the 2% with IQs <70, they have the same responsibility to the other end of the curve.

Hmm. I just had a thought. The parents of a disabled child in NYC recently won a lawsuit that now forces the city to pay tuition for a special school for their child. These people were very wealthy and sued on principle to help other less-wealthy families in the same situation. I'm not sure of the details, but I don't think all disabled kids were included. The plaintiffs' argument was that the public schools can't meet the needs of certain kids and therefore they must pay for private school. I wonder if this could be applied as precedent for gifted kids (the HG+ ones are equally rare and their needs are equally unmet)? Something like this could even be valuable as a tool to force the public schools to offer acceleration.

Val

Does anyone have an official checklist for gifted characteristics? Maybe if I had this, I could use this to my benefit with the teacher.

He took SAT's last yr. in K-5 & scored in 99th percentile in most areas.

And thanks Elisa for the link to fldoe.

Part of me is leaning towards backing off this test until 3rd grade UNLESS I see that DS6 is not challenged enough. The reason we chose private school was because we were afraid he would not be challenged in public. I know that his 1st grade teacher is currently teaching them what would be considered "2nd gr. work" in public school.

There are only 12 kids in his class & a few are doing poorly, most are average. My son has received 100% on all work & tests plus extra credit. This makes me happy and worried. I worry that it is too easy & he will not experience what it is like to struggle through things & enjoy the accomplishment of finally succeeding after hard work.

It is possible he is not working to his highest potential. That bothers me.

Hi - I don't think there can be any "official" checklist for gifted characteristics, but this link (found on hoagies) has a good list:
http://www.nswagtc.org.au/info/identification/characteristics.html. Each state that provides gifted services will likely have its own requirements for qualifying for programs, and they might provide some info on their identification processes.

FWIW, I would say that getting 100% on all work and tests plus extra credit is "not being challenged enough."

Yes, I agree. Thanks.

I wouldn't go there. I'd just shrug and give that little tilted smile, and say, "I'm sorry it's extra work for you, but we feel that we need to be prepared."

We Gifties think that if we give another person enough facts, that they will suddently agree with us. That might work with us, but with ND folks, appealing to the emotions is the better route.

I might be confused, but I thought you said that your school was allowing subject acceleration (where your son physically goes to different classrooms during the day?)

I stand by my position that IF the school is already accomidating the child, then the 'paperwork' is worth very little. Sadly, even if the school isn't accomidating then the 'paperwork' is still worth very little - unless it answers your own questions about your child.

If you want to know where you child stands in a subject area, get your school's books in that subject area for various grade levels and see what your kid can do, or learn quickly.

I believe that to develop good work ethic, a child needs to spend lots and lots of time in his or her 'readiness level.'

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I would say that 100% plus extra credit represents a 'ceiling.' It certianly is possible to get enough challege and still get 100%s, although I don't think it's likely.

see, this is where only reading some of the posts gets me in trouble - i see "is there a checklist?" and i give a checklist. I tend to agree with Grinity that if you're school is willing to accelerate to the point that you are satisfied that he is learning and being sufficiently challenged, there's no need for any additional paperwork/testing.

(Grinity's the BTDT grounded person around here!)

Yes, subject acceleration is common in this school. Since we are still in the 1st month of school, they have just finished "reveiwing" last years studies & she is now "evaluating" where each child stands so she can place them in groups or in another class. So, we are not there yet. Reading groups don't start until 10/1.

So, I am waiting to see what happens over the next couple of weeks.

Oh no! Well, good for your DS. I guess that's something to keep in mind. Even with radical acceleration, some of these kiddos will still be at the top of the class.

(By the way, i'm only speaking from my own experience of not ever having enough challenge in school, and that was years ago. DS4 isn't there yet.)

OK, here's the new news...DS6 teacher told me today that she called the district & they told her that if testing was requested by a parent, they had to follow through. Also, a parent could request this test & evaluation every year if they wanted.

On the otherhand, if a teacher saw giftedness in a child, they could not test until 3rd grade.

I received the packet to give the teacher...of course, I had to peek inside & see what it contained! It is not the "huge" packet of work that she had told me it would be. It is 4-5 pages of questions about his behavior & academics.

I will give it to her this afternoon.

Our meeting is set for 10/9.

Well it's weird that a teacher can't request testing until 3rd grade (although the studies say that most teachers are quite bad at spotting giftedness,) I think it's wonderful that if the parents request testing, it must be done!

I guess a teacher could type up a request and ask the parent to sign it - LOL! I basically sign anything that I find in my kid's backpack by reflex.

I'm glad to hear that the form is only a few pages.

I'm sorry that your son has to wait for October. That is such a long time for our littlest young ones. 15 lifetimes, I would estimate.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

That must be their unofficial policy. Basically the school will delay testing until third grade unless somebody makes a stink. Anyway, you have a small victory. But prepare yourself for the possibility that they will look over the test scores and checklists and say that they want to wait until third grade for the gifted testing. I believe they tell ALL parents to wait and only test when pressed.
Good luck at the meeting!

I will be prepared if they want to wait. I have accepted that. And, about my son waiting until October...I haven't even told him anything.

What should I tell him? And, do you suggest I wait until the day before the meeting to tell him about the meeting? How do I prep him?

Also, when & how do you talk to your kids about their giftedness? I haven't done that yet...

Sorry, I'm confused about your October meeting. Why is your son attending the meeting?

Oh...maybe he is not. His teacher told me this morning that she is to meet with the others involved on 10/9. I assume I should be there and maybe or maybe not my son. I will find out more soon.

This is the actual law for Florida and at no point is there a grade or age level. This was instituted to make Florida in compliance with Federal American's with Disabilities Act requirements for education.

6A-6.03019 Special Instructional Programs for Students who are Gifted.
(1) Gifted. One who has superior intellectual development and is capable of high performance.
(2) Criteria for eligibility. A student is eligible for special instructional programs for the gifted if the student meets the criteria under paragraph (2)(a) or (b) of this rule.
(a) The student demonstrates:
1. Need for a special program.
2. A majority of characteristics of gifted students according to a standard scale or checklist, and
3. Superior intellectual development as measured by an intelligence quotient of two (2) standard deviations or more above the mean on an individually administered standardized test of intelligence.
(b) The student is a member of an under-represented group and meets the criteria specified in an approved school district plan for increasing the participation of under-represented groups in programs for gifted students.
1. For the purpose of this rule, under-represented groups are defined as groups:
a. Who are limited English proficient, or
b. Who are from a low socio-economic status family.
2. The Department of Education is authorized to approve school district plans for increasing the participation of students from under-represented groups in special instructional programs for the gifted, provided these plans include the following:
a. A district goal to increase the percent of students from under-represented groups in programs for the gifted and the current status of the district in regard to that goal;
b. Screening and referral procedures which will be used to increase the number of these students referred for evaluation;
c. Criteria for determining eligibility based on the student�s demonstrated ability or potential in specific areas of leadership, motivation, academic performance, and creativity;
d. Student evaluation procedures, including the identification of the measurement instruments to be used;
e. Instructional program modifications or adaptations to ensure successful and continued participation of students from under-represented groups in the existing instructional program for gifted students;
f. An evaluation design which addresses evaluation of progress toward the district�s goal for increasing participation by students from under-represented groups.
(3) Procedures for student evaluation. The minimum evaluations for determining eligibility are the following:
(a) Need for a special instructional program,
(b) Characteristics of the gifted,
(c) Intellectual development, and
(d) May include those evaluation procedures specified in an approved district plan to increase the participation of students from under-represented groups in programs for the gifted.
(4) This rule shall take effect July 1, 1977.
Specific Authority 1001.42(4)(1), 1003.57 FS. Law Implemented 1000.01, 1001.42(4)(1), 1003.57(5), FS. History�New 7-1-77, Formerly 6A-6.3019, Amended 10-10-91, 5-19-98, 7-14-02.

They don't test until 3rd where we are either unless requested by parent or recommended by teacher.
I wanted to mention that, at least in our area, this means no services until 4th grade!! That is a long time to wait if you are already wondering about things in k or 1st.

Maybe this is obvious, but I really thought, 'oh, they'll test in 3rd and a month later the kids will be in some kind of special class'. Whoops! They have a lot of kids to assess at that point I guess. Anyway, we went ahead and requested testing in early 2nd because ds was showing signs of real unhappiness.

He just had his first pull-out class of the year yesterday and was just sooooo stoked about the things they had done. So far so good!

Hey Chris!
A good begining is good. So glad your son had a good time. It amazes me what a great difference even a little improvement makes in a child's outlook.
Smiles,
Grinity

This late testing business is kind of scary to me, because I'm thinking that I read somewhere that the brain's best learning abilities start closing up around 8, and if your kid's giftedness isn't addressed before then, there may be many lost opportunities. But I cannot remember the source, John Ratey maybe? Any brain research gurus out there?

Afterthought - so, anyone here on this board who's school doesn't have testing until third -- advocate! advocate! advocate! And if it doesn't work, make sure your child at least gets to learn something by afterschooling or other outside of school activities, or partial or full homeschooling. My .02 for the day.