Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion New here. gifted or high achiever

Hi everyone- I have really enjoyed reading the posts the past few days. I have 4 kids and the two oldest have been identified by the school as gifted. First my DS 11 in second grade and now my DS 9 a few weeks ago. The score does not give out test scores but I was verbally told they both scored in the 99% on the CogAT. DS11 also took the Raven and was in the 98%. Not sure on what else DS 9 took. My question is are these test really reliable indicators or are the schools just looking for high achievers. They do not seem like they are gifted but do seem to pick up things at a faster rate. DS 9 was diagnosed with high functioning ASD this year. He started having trouble socially (no friends at school and would rather hang out with the teacher during recess), perfectionism, very sensitive and rule follower. If they happen to be gifted is it possible my DS 9 was misdiagnosed? The ASD traits seem to be similar to gifted traits. This is all confusing to me. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

Generally speaking, it is more likely that a child will produce a low estimate of ability on a test than that an overestimate of ability will be generated. The CogAT is a reasonable screener for high ability, and usually does a good job of not creating false positives, but is known to miss some very high ability students (false negatives), especially those with highly divergent thinking styles.

As to whether the school is looking for high achievers...that is another question altogether, and best answered by looking at what GT programming consists of in your district. Is it faster, deeper, more creative, or just more volume of the same lower-level work, with extra executive functioning and output demands?

I'd argue that distinction speaks to whether its a good program in general and applies to everyone. I can't imagine anyone wanting or needing more volume of lower-level work.

Thank you for the resource! I am going to get that book. I tried to talk to DS9's therapist but he had no idea what I was talking about.

I agree that it there is so much overlap it is difficult to tell. As a therapist, I always look at symptoms when the person is in their fitting environment, not when they are in an environment that doesn't match. Many gifted kids are going to have social deficits in a typical classroom because they don't think the same way as most other kids. If you observe him in a group of equally gifted children and he still is not interacting well, then you may be looking at ASD. You can also look at the MCHAT assessment and think back to when he was 2-y/o and if he matched some of those characteristics for ASD before a same-age peer environment was an issue.

When he was diagnosed with ASD, was it through the school or through your medical provider? Did they talk any more about therapy, like ABA therapy, and is it covered under your medical insurance? My son is 7, and he gets 12 hrs of ABA therapy a week. They mainly go through social skills, and they practice a lot of verbal communication. So with your son, it depends on why he doesn't have friends. Is it because there's no one he can relate to, like all the other boys are talking about Pokemon, and he doesn't want to? Or he does want to do stuff with other kids, but he gets stuck trying to communicate (feels shy, gets tongue tied, etc?)

Thank you for your feedback twallace. This may sound bad but l really don't remember DS9 at age 2 when looking at the MCHAT. He was a very easy 2 year old and would play by himself quietly. I think I was so distracted by his very active big brother I did not pay enough attention to him. We noticed some social issues around first grade. He stopped playing with friends at recess and started sneaking inside back in the classroom. He would complain about all the rules and kids not following the rules such as in a game of tag on the playground. He also started wearing his hood up in social settings like the playground or new places and/or people. This continued to second and now third grade he has no friends at school. He plays by himself and usually makes up games in his head. He has been in a friendship group all year but still no friends. On sport teams he also does not socially interact with others and has never made any friends from the teams. I have not observed him yet with a group of gifted peers so not sure if he would be different in that setting. He does interact just fine with his siblings and has two friends outside of school that he has known since he was a toddler. He enjoys anything related to science and shares this interest with his two friends outside of school.

Hm. That you describe it as he stopped playing with friends, rather than did not play, suggests that there are other classifications that might be worth exploring. For example, social anxiety. Or social pragmatic communication. Or an unidentified learning issue, in combination with high ability (i.e., 2e), that contributes to anxiety. Or, as several have mentioned, the lack of a peer group. (Of course, none of us here have seen him, vs the professionals who diagnosed him, but there is plenty of discussion about the challenges of differential diagnosis in the field.) it doesn't sound like his Dx of ASD was in the context of a comprehensive neuro/psychological eval, or you would have had individual cognitive assessments to cross reference with the CogAT scores. This may be something worth pursuing.

Maybe he's a gifted high achiever... The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Thanks so much for the feedback aeh. Yes DS9 had two friends in kindergarten and he stopped playing with anyone in the first grade. I was concerned that DS9 may have a learning issue. He has always been slow to complete his work especially in writing and on art projects at school. I think part is because he is such a perfectionist and being detailed oriented. He did not even complete the CogAT so I was surprised he tested at a 99%. He tested very high on a reading achievement as well which also qualified him in the gifted program at school. In second grade DS9 had the biggest struggles. His teacher complained he did not finish any of his writing assignments, slow to complete work and was not responding to him at times in class. DS9 was caught by the teacher trying to finish his project in class during recess and was disciplined. This was a breaking point for DS9. He started having daily shut downs at school and at home and was refusing to go to school. I asked the teacher if he could have a learning disability such as in writing and he did not agree with this. I had DS9 tested privately for a writing disability but it was determined he did not have one. The tester noted he had an odd pencil grip. Testing was very brief only on area of writing. I could not afford further testing.
DS9 does have some anxiety issues and has some intense fears such as of germs and heights. He also has strange habits such as having to touch the rug at home three times every time he is near it. I got a referral through is pcp for a therapist for anxiety and the therapist recommended testing for ASD. This was done by a developmental-behavioral pediatrician and he gave him a diagnosis after an interview and reviewing some forms completed by the teacher and parents. Who completes a neuro/psychological eval? Do you think this could be covered by insurance? Can I request this from his developmental-behavioral pediatrician? Thank you.

Yes. A neuropsychological evaluation can be requested through your primary care physician. Depending on your insurance and how your PCP writes it up, insurance may pay for a significant portion of it. You can also have components of it done by requesting an initial evaluation for special education through your local public school district. You would pay nothing additional for that. A school eval typically would include testing in the areas of suspected disability, which in this case you would identify as anxiety, social skills, handwriting/fine motor, and a possible learning disability in written expression. A decent school eval would then test him in the areas of cognitive ability, academics, social-emotional, and occupational therapy. A clinic-based neuropsychological would cover all of these areas except OT, but would likely have some additional assessments in executive functions and various specific cognitive processes. If cost is an issue, and your insurance doesn't approve or cover a private neuropsychological, the school eval can be a good place to start. You probably won't get in to see anyone in either place until the fall, though.

I would be concerned that he has a learning issue as well.

Thank you again aeh. This past fall I requested an initial evaluation for special education after DS9 met with the developmental-behavioral pediatrician but was told he did not meet the requirements. The DBP wanted DS9 to have an IEP in place and I went in with a copy of his evaluation. The special education team determined his cognitive and academics skills were too advanced just based on his grades, teacher reports and initial CogAT screening that the teacher presented at the meeting. He was approved for a 504 for ASD anxiety issues only allowing more time on tests and work. However, this has not really happened. I hope this is making sense. I will proceed with the pcp for the neuropsychological evaluation. So far I have not had much response from the school. DS9 is a very sweet quiet child and does not cause any problems. I do worry he will fall through the cracks. Thanks so much for your input. It has been very helpful.

Sorry to hear they were not more responsive. It is true that some states have more restrictive criteria (and allow less comprehensive assessments to be sufficient; I would not consider the CogAT to be a good assessment of cognitive ability, nor would grades be an objective enough quantitative measure, but some states have policies that would deem those sufficient).

If your PCP writes the referral up as medically-focused, rather than educational in nature, you are more likely to get prior authorization from the insurance company. Since he has both medical (anxiety, social skills, fine motor skills) and educational (written expression) areas of suspected need, this is entirely legitimate. You should get the same kind of diagnostic information and recommendations regardless.

Thanks for your response kchow1. My son was diagnosed medically. He has been going to therapy for about a year and it seems to focus mostly on anxiety. They never once mentioned ABA therapy. I am not sure if it is covered by my insurance but social skills sounds like just what he needs. He had a social skills group at school but this did not work out. The other boys would end up going to recess and he would stay in by himself with the counselor. I am not sure exactly why my DS has a hard time socializing. He does does not respond to other children when they talk to him and ignores other children when they try to play with him unless he has known them for a long time. I am not sure if it is fear based or not. He does not greet people he casually knows and when we ask why not he says they are not his friend so he does not need to. We have tried to encourage him to use greetings such as "Hi or Bye" but this has been a struggle unless he really knows the person like a grandparent. It is easier for him with adults. His interests seem to be a little different than other boys his age. He likes to play with magnets, study plants, fungus, rocks, minerals, space etc. He has a little science lab in which he spends a lot of time mixing things and doing his own kid experiments. He reads a lot about science related subjects and fantasy fiction books. He is very picky about friends and will not talk to kids who do not follow rules. He also struggles on a playground with so many rules and he worries about hurting other children and worries about germs from kids on indoor play equipment. He will play and interact with his siblings. He usually makes elaborate games up and is dominate in play even with his big brother.

Thank you aeh! I will look into this.