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    Joined: Feb 2016
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    We finally got DS6's results this spring and are now trying to figure out what our next steps might be. Our biggest dilemma is whether to switch him out of French immersion, and I'd love feedback from anyone who has experience with this.

    Here are the thoughts so far:

    - The principal at his school is firmly of the belief that he'll get greater depth and breadth in the English program because there's little to no time spent on learning the vocabulary and they can get onto the subject matter itself.

    - We feel like it might help DS6's frustration in school because his grade 1 teacher indicated that he often didn't have the vocabulary in French to communicate his big ideas. He was constantly asking her how to translate very sophisticated ideas.

    - DS6 also got restless when they were going over the vocabulary in grade 1 because he already knew the basics (we also speak French at home).

    - I also happen to know that he would be in a very small class this year if he were in the English program, which would be great.

    - On the other hand, it has also been suggested to me that it's the same curriculum with the added distraction of a new language, which slightly softens the blow of the ridiculously too-easy content. It would at least be something new to learn and probably the only new thing to learn in the earlier grades.

    - It was also suggested that an English class might not be more challenging. Because bilingualism is so valued in our area, most parents would probably prefer to place their kids in French immersion. As a result, the English program would likely tend to have more kids with learning challenges and this means the classrooms would tend to be far, far more diverse than French immersion, and dealing with a much wider range of needs and learning readiness. As a result, the curriculum in most English classes might move even more slowly and in less breadth and depth.

    And the most emotional factor for me: It would break my heart to have him not learn French. Would it maybe be enough for him to have an IEP in FI? Maybe his vocabulary would catch up fast enough? He did learn awfully quickly in grade 1.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!

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    We found with our MG DS this year in K that Immersion was the key to making K work. For example in math he knew all of the material but he got to learn something during math still, because he learned the Spanish vocabulary.

    We speak Spanish at home too, but the level he was learning at school was much deeper.

    I would be careful to give up immersion for the promise of something deeper in a regular classroom. I don't know your school, but generally meaningful differentiation is *HARD* even when the teacher is committed. And year after year the success of it will depend on each new teacher.

    Good luck!

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    My three kids spent Pre-K through some portion of elementary school in French immersion (this was a private school, not a program within the public schools, if that matters). My eldest was in the immersion school through 4th grade, my middle kid through 2nd grade and my youngest through 3rd grade.

    Learning a second language through immersion was a good experience for them, or at least I can report that for the older two (jury is still out on the youngest since she is just going into 7th grade). My eldest took French for a couple of years in HS, then took the AP test. She also took German through AP. Middle kid took French in HS for three years, then took the AP. Middle kid took Spanish through AP. Both eldest and middle kid report that they felt the immersion experience made it easier to learn another language (German and Spanish).

    Doing well on the AP foreign language exams not only got them credit (not the case at all colleges though), but it also means they had fulfilled the language proficiency requirement for just about any college. Fluency also landed my eldest an internship at a foreign embassy.

    We did not think of them as gifted at the time they were in the immersion school, but classes in French definitely added some challenge to those elementary school years. My kids clearly experienced more boredom in the public school elementary program once they left the immersion school, though part of that might have been the pace of classes. The immersion school was not a gifted school and did not require testing (IQ or other) for admission, but there were a lot of gifted kids there. A good percentage of the classmates of my older two went on to attend Ivies or other elite colleges (immersion school only went through 8th grade).

    I would vote for immersion as it sounds like there is not any more advanced/challenging work in the English only classroom.

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    Originally Posted by RRD
    - The principal at his school is firmly of the belief that he'll get greater depth and breadth in the English program because there's little to no time spent on learning the vocabulary and they can get onto the subject matter itself.
    How much depth and breadth is needed? What subject areas are his strength? If you are looking for depth and breadth in math and science then I suspect you will be hugely disappointed by majority of the teacher's abilities to actually deliver on that at the elementary level. A few years ago when we were starting this adventure I was talking to our VP who was trying to convince me that they could differentiate for my math/science obsessed DS. "While the other kids are learning that plants need sun, water and soil he can learn that they use a process called PHOTOSYNTHESIS" - she said it nice and slow because it was a big word. I was pretty proud that I contained my laughter until I was in my car.

    Originally Posted by RRD
    - We feel like it might help DS6's frustration in school because his grade 1 teacher indicated that he often didn't have the vocabulary in French to communicate his big ideas. He was constantly asking her how to translate very sophisticated ideas.
    DS had this problem as well but to be fair he has the same issue in English.

    Originally Posted by RRD
    - I also happen to know that he would be in a very small class this year if he were in the English program, which would be great.
    Class size is meaningless if the needs of the class are so wide that the teacher can't address them all and teaches to the majority. Then there is the added fun of teachers that don't think that gifted kids need differentiation. In our experience the French classes are much larger but there are more high needs kids in the English side. Majority of the kids with IEPs were out of FI.

    Originally Posted by RRD
    - On the other hand, it has also been suggested to me that it's the same curriculum with the added distraction of a new language, which slightly softens the blow of the ridiculously too-easy content. It would at least be something new to learn and probably the only new thing to learn in the earlier grades.
    Yes, this didn't work great for us because his strengths were in subjects that were taught in English while the ones were his LD was more an issue were in French. Your board has a higher percentage of subjects in French in early elementary so YMMV.

    Originally Posted by RRD
    - It was also suggested that an English class might not be more challenging. Because bilingualism is so valued in our area, most parents would probably prefer to place their kids in French immersion. As a result, the English program would likely tend to have more kids with learning challenges and this means the classrooms would tend to be far, far more diverse than French immersion, and dealing with a much wider range of needs and learning readiness. As a result, the curriculum in most English classes might move even more slowly and in less breadth and depth.
    This is definitely the case in DS's previous school. They did things slightly different (you choose FI after grade 3 so parents have more of an idea if their kid is struggling or not). 80% do FI while 20% don't. All of the kids that participate in the gifted pull out are in FI.

    I know the both boards in the city really, really push differentiation and say that they do an amazing job doing it. Our personal experience with it was disappointing at best. In the French stream at least there is some hope of new vocabulary and better odds of him finding gifted peers (peers was key for my DS, however some kids are much better at making friends, have a wider variety of interests and this isn't as much of an issue for everyone). In the older grades kids drop out of FI for a wider variety of reasons and the dynamic is different so my comments above are aimed at the elementary years. In our city where FI is the default the ones that opt out in elementary are more often the ones that are struggling to keep up with the FI. I would be surprised if the English teacher will have the bandwidth to be able to differentiate and the need for differentiation would be even higher.

    Note - when you say switch out of FI I assume you are not talking about the Congregated Gifted Program. If you're talking about giving up FI for English CGP either now or at grade 5+ then I have a completely different answer.

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    Chay makes some great points below!

    We also struggled with this decision, but were choosing between FI and a congregated gifted (English) program. I think if the choice were between FI and regular English, FI would win hands down.

    If you are able to get an IEP, that will also help depending on the teachers. We lucked out this year (grade 2) and had both English and French teachers willing to work with us and differentiate.

    Both my kids are enjoying FI and have found good friends among their peers.

    On the other hand, if you see value in the English program your DS can probably learn French later - my DH learned French in high school and university (and did a couple of summer immersion programs) and is now fluent. So, not all is lost in choosing English, especially if you speak French at home!

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    A great big thank you to each of you! This is all leading me to really question our decision. I guess DH and I have to reconsider it! At the very least, I'm glad I posed the question here to give us additional info to consider.

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    So that's four votes for French Immersion. Any other thoughts? I've also chatted with a few teachers who recommend sticking with FI. My husband is still tempted to follow the principal's advice (she's been pretty wise about other stuff before), but I'm thinking parents of GC know best. ??

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    If you/your DH is still on the fence I would suggest talking to the principal and get some examples of what she considers to be "breadth and depth". I'm also so jaded by the system that I'd be demanding it in writing in the IEP so I'd have something to go back to later if needed.

    As noted above, my conversation about photosynthesis with our VP made me quickly realize exactly what they were talking about. Hopefully it will help you determine if it will work for your kid.

    I would also take a hard look at if it is differentiated teaching vs differentiated output. *Allowing* your kid to write 4 paragraphs instead of 4 sentences was generally seen as great differentiation in our previous school. When DS (who has a writing LD) didn't take advantage of this amazing gift - he clearly wasn't interested in enrichment/differentiation and they felt they were off the hook. Needless to say, DS wasn't thrilled.

    Another thing to ask about is frequency. 20 minutes working in a small group with a resource teacher a couple times a year is one of the other things that they were very proud of. My DD was less than impressed with all of the other days that had zero differentiation. I should add that it involved them learning a game that we play ALL the time at home and then teaching it to the class. DD enjoyed it but I don't know that it was all that enriching or how it possibly related to math other than counting dots on dominoes.

    It is also important to note that principals/VP's/admins aren't the ones actually doing any of this magical differentiation. You need a pretty amazing teacher to be willing AND able to pull it off. It also widely differs year to year because of this. I'd want to have some confidence that they will be willing and able to maintain enough differentiation for not just a year or two before making the jump since it is a one way ticket.


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