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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    You've gotten great advice already, I'll just add one other possibility - my ds has an expressive language disorder, and one of the signs that wasn't at all obvious to me when he was around your ds' age was that he would look to someone like the sw in this situation if he was stumped and didn't know what to say. It didn't look like a communication issue - it looked like a young child who didn't want to talk to the other person or who was shy or who was an observer etc, but really he had no clue what he was "supposed" to say (actually he had a slightly deeper issue of generating thoughts/words but I'll spare you the details lol!).

    He was also a kid who had high WISC scores on everything but PS.

    In your situation, I think I'd ask the sw for more info re what she's observing and what she's thinking. She may be way off, but her observations are probably going to tell you *something*. Following that, I'd follow your gut if you're concerned.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear


    PB My DS11 is quite a talker, but a lot of the time he seems to have trouble finding the words for what he wants to say… he will struggle to tell you something, then suddenly say never mind… I've been considering whether to have him screened for an expressive language disorder (he was a late talker and that was his primary problem- his receptive was advanced but his expressive was delayed). When you say PS you mean low Processing Speed right? My son as well…although he has other things that can be contributing to that- he has inattentiveness (ADD), so not sure if I should or not.

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
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    Eye contact is an area for development in many individuals with social skills vulnerabilities, including the majority of such, who are not on the autistic spectrum.

    Interesting statement that I'd like to hear more about. My DD has poor eye contact which I notice in these situations:

    1) With us when emotions are running high (not an issue when things are positive or neutral)
    2) With adults in authority or adults she does not know well. This can be VERY noticable.

    I never see it with other children--ever. I have also seen the "referencing" behavior discussed, but only with parents.
    These both sound very consistent with my DS16.

    Add not looking adults in authority the eye, and his refusing to say ANYTHING when pushed set off all sorts of red flags to these adults. But honestly once he got to know or trust an adult this didn't happen unless emotions were running real high. And he has gotten significantly better as he has matured.

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Quote
    Eye contact is an area for development in many individuals with social skills vulnerabilities, including the majority of such, who are not on the autistic spectrum.

    Interesting statement that I'd like to hear more about. My DD has poor eye contact which I notice in these situations:

    1) With us when emotions are running high (not an issue when things are positive or neutral)
    2) With adults in authority or adults she does not know well. This can be VERY noticable.

    I never see it with other children--ever. I have also seen the "referencing" behavior discussed, but only with parents.

    DD is still what I would call socially immature, but functioning at a very high level in school and socially popular in a nerdy, gifted group.
    Social skills, including eye contact, can be hyponormative in individuals with specific learning disabilities (dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, etc.), especially nonverbal learning disabilities, with language disorders (particularly expressive language), with ADHD/EF disorders, with mood or anxiety disorders, with schizotypal disorders, etc. It's a long list, obviously.

    In other words, social skills are extremely complex, multifaceted skills, which can easily be affected by disruptions in any one of a multitude of functions. It's really more amazing that the majority of people function socially. (Or we could think of it the other way, that most of us (the norm) have social skills deficits, a few of us have even more deficits, and then we have a few extraordinary outliers, like HK's DD, where everything truly comes together.)

    When there are additional strains on the system (e.g., emotionality/anxiety, social uncertainty, expressive language demands), some skills will naturally fall off the edge. Eye contact is one of those that tends to go. In people with EF deficits or other learning disabilities, it may also be that they have had less access to implicit instruction in social skills (from natural environmental feedback), because they've had to divert more development and processing energy to compensating for the area of learning difference.

    Some individuals, with intense emotional sensitivity, also find maintaining eye contact to be too powerful of a connection with the conversational partner, and avert their eyes to keep the emotion of the interaction consistent with the level of the conversation, or to keep the net emotional level (eye contact + verbal + other nonverbal) within manageable range, so they won't be overwhelmed.


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    I didn't know eye contact issues were seen with mood disorders. DD has some depression/anxiety issues. We have been told by professionals that what we think looks ASDish is more anxiety behaviors.

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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    I didn't know eye contact issues were seen with mood disorders. DD has some depression/anxiety issues. We have been told by professionals that what we think looks ASDish is more anxiety behaviors.
    VERY common. Anxiety drives quite a few symptoms that are popularly associated with other conditions, such as the rigidity and awkward social interactions connected with ASD, or even more outlier symptoms, like some auditory or visual hallucinations (mild ones--I except command hallucinations), which are usually associated with psychosis/schizotypal disorders.

    This is why (referencing the OP), it is important to involve experienced clinicians who take a comprehensive view of the data in any diagnostic discussion. A single observation or comment from one school professional (excellent though she may be in her area of expertise) is not enough to change the whole narrative.


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