Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Discipline?

Absolutely.


This is a tricky one. I have found that most of the time a child with ASD lies it is to cover for a skills deficit somewhere in the chain of events-- fear of negative consequences trumps the rational response, so they try to lie. (Mostly they are bad at it.)

i.e. hides assignment because doesn't know how to even begin it, is ashamed, lying seems simpler in that moment, then being found out makes everything worse.

I try to uncover the skills deficit that's being covered for and work on that; acknowledge that lying is wrong and hurtful and *yes* I will be monitoring more closely because you are not showing me I can trust you.

But also that there's a better way to approach "being stuck" or "not knowing how to begin" and so we will now work on that skill every day until it's mastered.

Kid needs to know you have his back; also needs to know some skills for when things are tough; also needs to know that lying generally makes more trouble than it's worth.

And to answer this excellent question - lord only knows. When I know for sure - natural consequences come pretty hard and fast. But in general, I assume he's trying his best, and give benefit of the doubt unless I have good reason to be sure he was just being naughty.

This may well change as he gets older or starts being crafty with excuses. But, e.g., for this week when every kid in school is wild with excitement and there are parties and parades and haunted houses, and oh by the way his birthday is also this week, I pretty much assume any behavior comes out of his extremely elevated sensory "baseline." When the world is all wound up like this - he's just very, very, very close to snapping at any time.

Oh suevv, having a flashback, here. The most obnoxious communication I ever had with a teacher (on my part, anyhow) is when DS was in fourth grade and I received some email about his "bad choices" and I just lost my cool. I said something about this being inappropriate language and that nobody would accuse a child with seizures of choosing to have a seizure in class, so why would we use this language with a child with ADHD demonstrating poor impulse control. It was not my proudest moment. They stop using that gawdawful "choices" language so much, over time, thank goodness.

DeeDee, agree, DS here is really really bad at lying. Comically so. However, sometimes I pretend like I believe him (even when I don't) just because I'm so blasted tired that I want to hang out in denial for an evening.

Now at nearly 13, I see that he is becoming more likely to lie in an "antisocial" way than an avoidant way, at times--as in, the way a neurotypical teen would lie. This is twisted--but in a way, I'm glad. Even though I really hate dishonesty, it seems (relatively) developmentally appropriate and it demonstrates some level of savvy that I wasn't sure he was capable of. I was also pleasantly surprised when he was rudely, offensively, and hurtfully "embarrassed" by my "hovering" at his last school social event where I was chaperoning. He wanted me to stay away from him and leave him alone! And he was snotty about it! How ridiculous that this pleased me, even though it also did hurt my feelings. This parenting a child with social issues is a fun-house mirror, isn't it?

Suevv--your DS sounds so familiar to me. I'm so glad he has a mom like you in his corner. It's surprising how many parents don't seem to know or care about taking the time to understand their kids. I see this in my work, frequently, and it makes me sad.

This sounds so much like my DS16 at 12. Before I offer solutions I want to say is that at 16 DS is a very different person and some portion of that I credit just to maturity. The preteen years have are HARD, the changing hormones in their bodies make experiences more intense. I know it seems hard right now but with patience you too can have a mature polite teenager. I can't explain how proud of DS I am these days. He has come a long way from a the rude, introverted, anxious and depressed 12 year old.

But I agree that these behaviors can't be tolerated kids need to learn how to behave in a socially acceptable way and that you can't just ignore this. I ended up taking my DS to a psychologist at that age because he has anxiety disorder that was getting in the way at school. The psychologist helped by teaching him how to take control of his anxiety. Helped us agree how to respond to these situations. I found this really helpful. He really needed a 3rd party who wasn't so emotionally invested in the situation. Punishing by taking away electronics & other things usually backfired and made things worse. We learned to treat this as a manifestation of his stress and like others have mentioned DS would need to go somewhere and calm down.

What I found the hardest was other adults interfering who thought I just wasn't punishing him enough or the right way. I had relatives who told him to his face he was a rude little boy. It was frustrating because I was working with him and comments like that made things worse. Very frustrating and embarrassing for me particularly as I didn't feel like sharing all the details to every adult who came in contact with him.

Not sure how helpful my suggestions are but mostly I LISTENED to my kid, tried to find ways cope for him to cope with his anxiety, made clear cut expectations WITH him for what we would do before he blew up, and minimized the situations that would set him off.

This thread is so thought-provoking. Reading through, I think I've crystalized understanding about something: DS sometimes lies because he already told the truth and nobody believed him. Conversation goes something like this:

Authority: Why did you do that?

DS8 (small voice - telling the truth): I don't know.

Authority: You do know that [behavior] is unacceptable don't you?

DS8: Yes

Authority: Are you allowed to do that at home?

DS8 (confused b/c "allow" is irrelevant): No. Yes. I don't know.

Authority: Well, you know very well it's not allowed here. Why did you do it?

DS8: [says nothing]

Authority: Are you going to answer me? I'm waiting for an explanation.

DS8 (making up a string of inconsistent excuses now b/c he has to say something): "He started it. I didn't do it, somebody else did. It was an accident. People do that all the time."

Authority: We both know you are lying now. This is going nowhere. I'm imposing X discipline. Do you think that will help you learn not to do this.

DS8: I don't know.

Authority: HE'S TOTALLY REMORSELESS. HE PRACTICALLY TOLD ME HE WAS GOING TO DO IT AGAIN.

This must be agonizing for a kid who really is trying, and doesn't want to lie but feels backed into a corner. How do you get Authorities to understand that he really does not know why it happened or how to stop it. FWIW, this is a big part of the reason DS won't go to birthday parties or (see my other thread) trick-or-treating or most anywhere he'll get overwhelmed.

Thank you. And heavens above - I love this board.

Sounds familiar. Only my son at 12 would just shut up and stop talking. Honestly.. he would give up trying to answer and shut up. This really annoyed Authority figure and I would get a phone call. I have no idea why Authority figure would expect a 11/12 year olds to understand and be able to articulate why they did something. Drove me up the wall, I usually ended up having to take my son home for the rest of the day. (Headdesk)

Yuh huh, and either way it's a sign of NO REMORSE. Ugh! I heard that one, too, when DS was younger. The more recent incarnation is "he doesn't care." DS will tell you that he has made a conscious decision not to care, because he doesn't think he can change anyone's perceptions. My guess is he has that feeling because he doesn't understand how/why/when he messes up. DS now nods and agrees and then tells me he has no earthly idea what any of it meant, when he's made a teacher angry.

Questioning kids about their motivation is pretty much a dead-end street, unless they are unusually insightful and/or self-aware. Similar to trying to "catch them lying." Why, even? How about direct communication? I found it a little bit ironic that DS' teacher told me he was being "aggressively passive aggressive" when she spoke in vagaries to him when trying to explain what he was doing wrong in class (my thread). He probably does, indeed, sound aggressive and he is, in fact, passive--but passive aggressive? He's not even capable of that level of manipulation. The idea that a kid with ASD could deliberate to that degree about social communication is funny, really.

Amen!