Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Reading aloud fluency issue

Hello all, need some help! Recently our school switched over to IRLA reading assessment system when they used to do DRA. DS 4th grade was always way ahead with DRA . Now apparently with IRLA there is some pretty rigid read aloud fluency tests which is holding him back . It's almost like he is regressing . He does super well on all other aspects of the test (vocab, Latin roots, comprehension, etc) . He says reading in his head is no problem but he is struggling reading aloud. Should the reading aloud be a reason to make him read books (that he is reading silently at independent reading time, btw) below his true level? I'm not sure that is s good or helpful idea but that's what teacher is seeking to do. Also, what can he do remediate the issue? He has dyspraxia and dysgraphia , is that a cause/factor?

I'm not familiar with the tests, but my DS7 also has dyspraxia and also struggles with reading aloud. He skips words, lines, and loses his place on the page. He also tells me that it is easier reading silently.

He is currently doing vision therapy, and I think it's paying off. He now picks up books and reads them on his own - before he would try to read but give up quickly, or come and ask me to read to him. He still resists reading aloud to me, although when he does I notice fewer skipped words.

When I discussed the VT with our pediatrician, he was skeptical. However, he also said that with dyspraxia (DCD), DS will be able to learn motor skills but it will usually take more repetitions. I figured that the VT was at least giving him a chance to practice eye movements (a fine motor skill).

DS also is a perfectionist - So when reading aloud if it doesn't sound quite right to him, he'll go back and re-start a sentence 2 or 3 times until all the words have the correct emphasis. Not sure what to do about that one.

Thanks! Yes DS has had VT . Helped immensely . I asked him if he thinks he needs it again and he thinks because silently he's okay that's it's not his eyes... He says it's his mouth! Not sure wtd

I'm curious about the reading aloud fluency as a means of testing reading skills. It isn't really a skill that is used in many careers.... Hoping an expert weighs in on this one!

Personally, I find it far harder to read aloud than to read to myself. Often, it's because my mind wants to move much faster than my lips can keep up. In reading to my son, sometimes I find my mind on an entirely different train of thought while I'm still reading the story to him (that sounds weird, I know!).

Not weird - happens to me too. Usually with books that the kids have asked me to read a gazillion times - my mind wanders.

Well... it isn't used in many careers but .... I've seen it be a very helpful way to assess reading skills. Since I'm not a professional, I shouldn't probably even begin to answer this but I'll add just a few things I've seen with my kids:

1) When you measure a student's reading comprehension from silent reading, you may be measuring reading comprehension that relies heavily on reading from context, rather than reading and taking in meaning from each word. For some kids, depending heavily on reading from context works well when they are young and reading fairly simple passages but can be an issue later on as reading demands increase.

2) Reading out loud helps a teacher see where a child is challenged with their reading. My dd who had vision issues, for instance, could memorize sight words and pass tests on reading them, and she understood phonics well so she could sound out words as she read them, but when she read aloud there would be quirky odd things happening - she'd read aloud fairly large complicated words and then get stuck on a word like "far" and think she'd never seen it before.

3) Some kids simply race through silent reading and aren't really taking everything in. Reading out loud can help an adult determine what level they really are reading at.

Best wishes,

polarbear

For Irena,

I'd wonder about your ds' vision with the reading aloud issues. Have you had him read aloud to you at home? I hope it doesn't sound discouraging, but my dd who had vision therapy for muscle tone has had to repeat it once and also needs to still do exercises occasionally to keep her eyes working together. Eye fatigue can also be an issue for her.


LOL about the mouth! OTOH, is it possible it might be his mouth/speech? I'd wonder about that too with dyspraxia, because speech can be impacted.

I'd probably do my own investigating at home, try to see what you can figure out with our ds' help, then if you're able to tie it to his dyspraxia in some way advocate for more challenging reading material at school.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Has your DS's speech (oral/motor) ever been evaluated?

I'm not familiar with IRLA, however, both Dibeles and Aimsweb say their measures are not suitable for children with speech fluency disorders (such as stuttering and apraxia).

While it may seem like common sense that oral reading fluency tests would be problematic for children with speech issues and therefore not an accurate measure of their reading ability, my DS's school doesn't get it. My DS stutters and has other speech disfluencies. Despite my pointing out the section in the Aimsweb manual that says the tests are inappropriate for DS and DS's well-documented history of stuttering and other speech difficulties, DS's school still insists on assessing his oral reading. I'm baffled why anyone would insist doing any assessment that you know going in cannot give a valid score, but that's another story.

Oral reading fluency as a measure of reading comprehension is based on the data. When you look at correlations between various quick probes of reading skill and in-depth measures of reading comprehension, oral reading fluency actually has the best correlation. This is why it's used as a proxy for reading comprehension skill in elementary-age classroom progress monitoring probes.

Although it doesn't have as much face validity as some other measures, such as the cloze (fill-in-the-blank) reading tasks, or as much clinical richness as a direct measure like the WIAT-III reading comprehension subtest, or the TORC-4 (which is a multi-subtest measure solely of aspects of reading comprehension), it's quick, easy, cheap, objective, and surprisingly accurate. So good for screening, repeated measures, and collecting group data.

Of course, it's still a proxy, not a direct measure, and subject to all the caveats of a proxy.

My DS reads silently just fine and has a very high comprehension.

However, like many here have mentioned, he skips words. He changes verb tense. He even paraphrases as he reads aloud. It's almost like his brain is reading far ahead of his mouth so much so that by the time his mouth catches up, he's already sorted out unimportant words and paraphrased, while still maintaining enough content to comprehend.

Does your library have a Paws program where kids can read to a therapy dog? It's a non-judgmental reading exercise because the dog doesn't judge and sits or lays quietly and listens. If you have a pet, you could have him or her read to it also. I do think this is a skill, like any other, that sometimes needs work to perfect. (There are plenty lectors at my church that skip words or change them (completely changing context), so it's not just kids who might need practice!)

Also, I would note, too, that cadence while reading in your head is definitely different then reading aloud. If you are a fast reader, you might not pause too long at the end of a sentence, but if you're forced to read aloud, you do need to do that.

Good luck! My son hates to read out loud, so if we do read from a book or short story assigned as homework, I have him read one page and I read the other.

Thanks! This helps explain it.

Thanks all. I actually went in and chatted with his teachers today and they seemed like I was worried over nothing and all is fine. They said he got 94% on fluency and he needed a 99% but his fluency isn't "bad" per se and all other aspect of test were great - he did very well. The only thing is the IRLA test does not test silent reading comprehension like the DRA, so that is not good for him. She is going to test his silent reading comprehension with another test next week and make plans for him accordingly... and they said he could still read above level work.

I don't know what to think... they said it wasn't a big deal and they they would work on it with him at school and his teacher even said she was happy to have something to work on with him. I guess it's not a big deal after all? My son is very hung up on his "level" he feels like he needs to always be top and top of his class so that is more of the problem - he gets upset at the mere hint that he is not achieving his maximum.

So I found some info on IRLA. The big difference between IRLA and most of the other systems is that it is designed around the Common Core grade level expectations, which are qualitatively different from grade to grade, so although it has continuous scores, they are not really based on the same assessed skills from grade to grade. It also has very high mastery criteria (99% in every aspect of reading) for advancement to the next level. The routing test for determining the level to use for assessment is supposed to be vocabulary knowledge.

"The student’s baseline reading level is the highest level passage s/he is able to read comfortably, with 99-100% word recognition, expression and fluency, while answering basic comprehension (Common Core State Standard 1) and vocabulary questions (Common Core State Standard 4) appropriate to the level."

Following is a link to a technical document discussing some of the psychometric strengths and weaknesses of IRLA as a reading assessment, and quite a bit about end-user feedback. One item that jumps out at me is it has no data on standard error of measurement.

http://www.americanreading.com/documents/report-measurement-inc.pdf

So wait ... The part of the assessment that determines whether or not he moves to the next level is the vocabulary ? Is that tmthe case? He's like 2 levels above in that ... But yes I believe his fluency score was only 94% ... So should they really not be allowing to move to the next level, then? Thanks AEH!

The part of the assessment that determines where they start the rest of the assessment is vocabulary. From there, he has to reach 99% in all of the other areas (word recognition, expression and fluency, comprehension) as well to move on. Still a bit of a hindrance to slow but accurate readers, in many cases, but, if the routing test is properly administered, he still shouldn't be placed many grade levels below his actual reading ability. The routing test is based on the text leveling system. If he can read and define at least 5 or 6 words from the list of routing vocabulary words for that level, then he should be administered the other tests for that level.

The problem probably comes when assessors stop before administering the level -above- the appropriate level, so they don't know what the actual highest level of vocabulary he would have passed is. The instructions should really say to administer vocabulary levels until the student passes -fewer- than five words, and then continue testing at the level below that. If he parked there, working on oral reading fluency, it wouldn't be so bad.

So let's say, he passed purple level vocab but then only got 95% on the fluency .... Does he stay on purple, then? That's what happened . But What teacher is doing is using the lower fluency score to move him down from purple to the level below, which is orange. It sounds like he should really stay at purple, no? It would explain why they started backpedalling today when I started seeking to look more deeply into how the test is conducted and where he was deficient.-

So I spent some more time poking around for info on IRLA, and found that the fluency measure is supposed to be scored only on word reading accuracy, not on objectively measured rate. Rate is subjective: "appropriate rate and expression". And passing to the next level (color) is based almost entirely on the other measures of vocabulary, comprehension, and range of reading.

This is the progression:

Determine entry level for initial test: out of a list of 15 vocabulary words, correctly read and define at least 5. If 12 or more are correct, proceed to the next level of vocabulary words, and continue testing vocabulary until at least 5 but no more than 11 are correct. This is the level for the initial cold read assessment text.

Initial cold read qualifier: read text aloud with 99-100% accuracy, and "appropriate" rate and expression. If accuracy is below 99%, drop down a level for cold read, until accuracy rises to 99%. Conduct comprehension assessment at that level.

Comprehension assessment: if student obtains 9/12 comprehension points at this level, then this is their reading level.

Now where things get interesting is, as I mentioned above, once you've determined an entry point, the oral reading fluency measure is no longer important. (It literally constitutes 1% of the points required. Also, accuracy for exiting is 98%, rather than the 99% for initial placement.) All the remaining criteria for advancing up through the levels are based on vocabulary, comprehension, and range of reading. So it is hypothetically possible for, say, a careless reader with high comprehension to be placed a few grade levels below their actual level by the initial cold read, but then to progress rather rapidly up the levels by passing all the comprehension benchmarks.

I would say that, if one suspects a child is misplaced for fluency reasons, one should request that the comprehension assessments for exiting the level be administered, rather than re-assessing with the placement test. That should make it rather obvious that there is only a very tiny, and not very significant, reason for considering keeping them at that level. I suspect that is why, in your situation, they started backpedaling. Even though he may or may not meet the cold read qualifier for purple, he probably meets all the orange-to-purple transition criteria.

You could also suggest to your DS to slow down very slightly while reading aloud, which may increase his accuracy (if that was the issue) to above 99%. As long as he is still reading at what sounds like a natural pace, and not struggling to decode words (a few immediate, fluent self-corrections are allowed) he should get credit for appropriate rate and expression.

Thank you so much, aeh! This is great, now I know what questions to ask and what is going i.e., how test is structured.

It sounds so complicated and time intensive....our schools just use STAR reading and STaR math tests on the computer and call it a day.

I agree Cookie but it is the common core - that stuff seems very complicated and time consuming, etc.


Aeh,
I got a little suspicious when I spoke to the teachers. I felt like one (the reading one) was doing a lot of justifying and "talking around" my questions. Also, they told my DS something completely opposite than what they told me and that is why I went to meet with them because they had upset him so much. Mind you, he is easily upset over this stuff and is very fixated on progressing and "passing tests" - he sees this reading level move/issue as a "failure." I myself really don't see that big of deal at this point as long as he likes what he is reading, is challenged, etc. He, however, is really anxious and upset over this perceived failure and is very intent on finding out where he is "deficient" and working on it. So, I promised I would find out for him. When he tries to they start counseling that he needs to be okay with failing sometimes and not always being on top and either do not explain the test/system/structure or they lie. Anyway, in terms of them telling DS something completely opposite than what they told me - teacher told him his true level was now down a level. Then at independent reading time, the teacher assistant helped his find an interesting book (he had just finished the one he had been reading) and she suggested the purple level book and he started reading. Apparently, reading teacher came over chastised him for taking a book from a level he is no longer on, chastised the assistant, and made a pretty big ddeal about it. When I talked the teachers(and I did not tell them I heard all about this incident) they told me the opposite, they said "oh he can still read purple level books; in fact, assistant just suggested this book (they showed it to me) and that is what he is going to read at independent reading time!" And I really requested very direct and specific information (like you just gave me ... even something close to that would have been nice). I wanted to know how the test is structured, what my DS needed to pass, and where exactly he did not pass, by how much, etc. But there was a lot of talking around and 'justifying', talk of going "deep" (apparently that is really the buzz word with these new curriculums - I hear it in math too... so weird. I am not sure why it feels like they do not want to give certain information... and why it is so important to almost find reasons to keep a child from moving levels... I do believe or like to believe the teachers have good intentions... I can't imagine these ones, in particular, have some other agenda or some reason for keeping my DS down. BUT it just feels odd that I can't get specific information, that there is backpedaling, that when it comes down to it there is not a really, truly valid reason for this. It's just odd. Unless they really believe he needs something or is moving when he really is deficient but, yet, they said that was not the case. I am so confused. I find it very odd. Add to that teacher did made a comment that she wanted something to work on with him...

In my experience, elementary teachers as a population do not do well with change. They struggle when new curricula are introduced, they get anxious when asked to do new class/school-wide assessments, even asking them to write their lesson plans in a new format throws them for a loop.

This thread began with the comment that your school had recently changed to IRLA as its reading leveling system. I would suspect that the teachers in your son's school are not completely comfortable with using the leveling system, and consequently can't explain how and why it is supposed to work, because they don't fully understand it themselves. Like many people who are insecure, but feel they have to present a front of authority, they may bluster or handwave through initial questions, and then backpedal or "reframe" (aka, lie) when confronted with inconsistencies.

Knowing that insecurity is probably playing a major role in the decision-making of the people involved, it may help to find ways to allow them to keep "face"(the illusion of competence and authority) while steering them toward appropriate placements and instruction for your child.

Thanks so much , Aeh! I sent an email to the teacher to clarify for sure that all other requirements were more than met... Once she answers and if she answeres yes, as I am pretty sure she will as that is what she said at the meeting, I think I am going to ask if we can explore ways to address that issue without holding him back ... I sat down and 'taught' him how to read with expression (I'm pretty sure that is the majority of the problem as he tends to read as its run-on sentence). I bet if she retests him with a new read he'll do fine. He just had to be taught ... I remember being taught explicitly hoe to read aloud... It seems he's never been "taught" and he needed to be 😊

So, just to let you know how it all turned out, I emailed teacher to clarify for sure that all other requirements were more than met... And, she responded that DS is actually on the higher level, that fluency is only one piece of reading, and that she will continue to check in with DS on the fluency piece to make sure it is not impacting his comprehension down the road. She said his strengths in comprehension and vocabulary showed that the higher level is a comfortable level for him. She said that regarding the misunderstanding that DS had been moved/placed on the lower level, she had just wanted to make sure that he was still open to reading lower level text as he continues to build comprehension skills and strategies in all areas of reading comprehension, depending on the skill being worked on but that he is not actually or officially on that lower level.

???

So odd... I am not sure what the heck gets lost in translation but now it's all been a sort-of misunderstanding and he can read the higher level books and he is on the higher level. I end up wondering if I am getting dementia or something because clearly I missed/misheard/misundertood something. Or I hope she didn't just move him to higher level because I started asking about it. I really just wanted to know where he is suppose to be, if that is truly the proper level for him based on how he tested and if not, what is causing regression. I did not want her to move him just because I started asking questions . The only thing that helps me feel slightly more sane (but not much) was DS got the same impression - i.e., that he was not on the higher level due to his testing and was not permitted to read the books labeled as that level.

Interestingly, DS just found out today that two other children who had thought and who had told him were on the same level as he are now on the lower level... The children seem reluctant to discuss why they are no longer on the higher level (were they moved down? why? or were they never really on that level in the first place?) So, he is not sure if they were moved down or if they were never on the level to begin with or what. Also in library or something the librarian told him no one in his class is above black level (grade level) on reading - he responded that he is and he is pretty sure at least one other student is and she responded that she would check but that she is pretty sure that all children in his class were reported as being at the grade level and not above.

I am suspicious. I wonder if she really did just want all the kiddos "on grade level" (not above) for some reason... or if she is being encouraged to do that by administration.

Anyway, I guess all is well that ends well. But wow... I feel like someone of my intelligence (not that I am discovering cancer or anything by any means but I have graduate level education and am pretty strong in verbal intelligence and communication) should not have this much trouble understanding 4th grade reading system.

I doubt they understand either, they are probably just making things up as they go along. I found out at conferences last spring that DS hadn't even been doing his reading assignments in class. He was spending all of his time reading his own books that he brought in from home. Then when he went to go meet with his reading group, he had no idea what anyone was talking about and therefore didn't participate and he didn't have his sheets/reports filled out. And no one thought to intervene? (the reason he didn't do the reading assignments is because he thinks the passages are short, silly, and babyish, although supposedly they were two-three grade levels ahead, so who knows).

I guess. This teacher is new to this grade this year (formerly was a second grade teacher)... And the IRLA system is new to the school as a whole (just started last year). So, quite possible she is still finding her way ... Still. Looks like her first way of getting a handle on things is to make sure all of her students are right on grade level...

That seems to be a common theme at the schools. God forbid you give a student reading material that might be too challenging.