Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional overwhelmed and sad

It was a rough week for me in my advocacy "journey" (aka 9 Circles of Hell).

Many issues. This will be long.

1) DS started a new medication and discontinued one, and was a hot mess. One very kind teacher was very communicative with me (thank god!) and so I was able to understand I needed to call psychiatrist. I should count that as a blessing because this did not happen last year and created a circle-the-drain scenario.

2) DS missed classes last week for medical appointments and was penalized in class for "participation points" in one, and in another, I ended up embroiled in an ultimately fruitless email marathon in an attempt to understand his 504 accommodations regarding makeup work deadlines. I ended up canceling a therapy (CBT) appointment for him today because he would have missed class and I don't want to make things worse. He needs the counseling.

3) As the icing on the cake: I received another email saying "DS' planner is trashed, do you know what happened?" I didn't, but the planner is kind of a mess. I put it back together and told DS he needs to take better care of it, which his teacher had also told him.

At this point, DS says (very factually), "In my defense, it isn't my fault this time."

When pressed--he explains (again, unemotionally)--that he'd stayed after one class a little late to discuss his planner, so he hadn't put it away in his backpack. He said he was carrying it, and an older student ran up to him, smacked it out of his hand, yelled "F the Police," and ran off.

DS isn't worried about it and does not feel it's bullying since it only happened once.

Why didn't DS explain this to the teacher? The answer to that is he is oblivious, and didn't realize an explanation would help the teacher understand when the teacher told him he needs to take better care of his planner. So more negative perception of DS not caring.

I also worked through some homework with him and in some cases, when he doesn't understand directions, he just skips questions or answers them ineffectively. Why, DS, do you not ask for help? He explained that he knows *how* to ask for help (i.e. what words to use) but not *when* he needs help. How can he not understand this?

I am very careful to make sure DS doesn't look notably "weird." IOW, he has a stylish haircut and wears nice, mainstream looking clothes and I make him change if he puts together an oddball outfit (mismatched, or black socks/white shoes, etc.) He doesn't want to look weird and wants me to tell him if he does--but he is clueless. He is a really nice looking kid (I'm biased, but he really is!) but I'm wondering if his affect is becoming more and more noticeably different.

All in all--just a bad week. I would like to just move to the mountains with my kids and not have to deal with any of this.

I don't know how to advocate for him because it seems like teachers either "get it" or not, and there's no room in the middle.

Possibly he has been compensating for a long while, and has grown used to skipping things and guessing as strategies which are often successful? You may wish to consider talking with him about these strategies (which he may not immediately recognize if they have become ingrained/automatic), and helping him recognize them as a signal that another strategy could be employed: asking for clarification. A helpful teacher who "gets it" may spend the time to discuss his guesses while also providing clarification of the instructions/directions in other words/phrases until he has the aha moment and all the puzzle pieces seem to fit.

Sorry to hear it's been a rough week eco -


I wouldn't let this one slide by - I'd email the teacher, state what you understand had happened - no emotion or judgment or indication that anything unacceptable had happened - just state that your ds had been out of school for medical appointments and missed class on x day, and that you understand (or have seen?) that he was graded low on "participation points" on that day. Ask if that is what has happened, and if so, can the grade be changed since it was an excused absence. If the grade can't be changed, can he make up the work. If the answer is "no" to this or if the teacher suggests he do something unreasonable to make up the work, I'd take the situation and response up a level, and request a meeting with the 504 coordinator, or perhaps the principal. I realize as I'm typing this that there are also political considerations here due to the struggles with your school, but fwiw, that's my first response! I do think you can approach this in a non-adversarial manner, take the stance of seeing it as a misunderstanding that needs to be resolved.


It sounds like the accommodations aren't outlined clearly - which is good reason to call a 504 update meeting. You could bring up the issue above (missing class and being penalized) at the same time.


One of the toughest things I found on our 2e journey was trying to fit everything in. We had some therapies that we had to do during school, others that we couldn't get appointments for during school hours and had to do after. By the time my ds was in middle school, missing school was tough for him in many ways. Missing school is still tough in high school too. Is it possible to schedule the CBT at a different time?


I know this isn't going to be particularly helpful, but fwiw, recognizing what is and isn't bullying can be tough at your ds' age even for neurotypical children.


Again, no helpful advice but btdt... and I also wonder - are you sure that it's just being oblivious in not recognizing that he needs to explain, or is it possible he doesn't really know how to approach the explanation?


My advice here is to not spend too much time on the "How can..." thoughts and just make note of the gap in understanding, explain, instruct, and repeat/repeat/repeat until he gets it. Show by example. Give him structure and support in answering so he can do it in small, simple ways to start and see the success and get the idea of how it works, then gradually build up to where it will sink in as more of an automatic understanding.


He's aware and trying. He's relying on your advice. I am not sure about his affect, but I do see one thing that is *very* positive here - he's got you in his corner, and he knows it. He's coming to you for advice. Those are the cornerstones that will support you both when things are tough.


That's been our experience too. With the teachers who don't get it, you just have to keep advocating, keep your advocating simple, straightforward, focused on facts and data. Over time, some of the teachers might respond and "get it" - some won't - but you'll have at least done what you could.

Hang in there!

polarbear

Does he see the distinction between explaining what happened in this situation, as opposed to the type of explanation/countering/backtalk for which he has been admonished in the past?

I'm sorry to hear about all of the frustrations. PM me what you changed with the drug and the effect because I think DD is on a similar combo.

Is the teacher that penalized him the same one that has been giving you other problems? I don't understand why he would take off points for participation if DS couldn't participate because he was absent. That sounds bizarre and retaliatory. But I would politely inquire about the "mistake" and hear the response before making any accusations.

Reading all of your posts about what appears to be rigid grading systems just makes me squirm. Is this what I'm in for in another two years or so?

Also, make sure that you are documenting what you are helping with in terms of homework, so that the teacher doesn't see his well formed answers and then conclude that there is no issue with your DS. I know that it is difficult, though, if there is the potential of him being kicked out of the program if he doesn't do well there (despite a disability). I really think that you need to get something in the 504 that he is not to be kicked out of the program if difficulties arise from the fact that he is 2e. I don't know if it's possible, or what the law says, but I would try.

Yes, this is how I'm trying to approach it at home. I am going to need to be the helpful teacher--the ones who are most positive about him are math/science and that is not where he needs clarification. He's answering social studies questions with prior (correct) knowledge, for instance, but it hasn't been covered yet and that is one of the problems.
I did email to confirm that was the reason for the deduction. It is an art class and the teacher's response was he can't give studio points when the student isn't there. He said he gives opportunities to make up points that he announces to the class.

--I asked if he could tell me about them because DS won't hear/remember.
--I asked if would consider just lowering the points possible for DS so that he isn't given free points when he's not there but isn't penalized, either. I explained he needs treatment and I'll do my best to schedule it so he doesn't miss the same class frequently.

No response.

Realistically, there is no good time. My busy time at work is right after school and it takes all evening to do meals/homework/bedtime routine--and DS is frankly a slug in the afternoon/evening. It's kind of the least worst situation to miss 1.5 hours of school. I did put him on a cancellation list for the end of the school day so he'd only miss study hall. The psychologist offered to write a letter stating it is potentially a violation of DS' civil rights to be penalized for seeking needed medical treatment, but I don't think that's a good idea.

I think you are onto something. He recently explained to me that he just "makes everyone angry" when he talks, so he has stopped talking. In fact, I've spent a bit of time researching selective mutism, because he is nearly mute in the presence of some of his teachers, when we've tried to have productive meetings.

He is not like this with other adults at all. Very specific (selective?)

Different teacher. I think it's an attendance incentive and not retaliatory.

He's really having a good year academically, even though it may sound otherwise from my posts. He has all very high As and Bs, except in history where he's been trending down and is now at 80%. (Irony: he adores history and wants to be an historian who invents historical board games. He is adept and knowledgable in this area.) He has a couple of wonderful, compassionate teachers who are being great with him and communication. I really think a huge part of this depends on the luck of the draw.


The things we've been reviewing are after the fact--so that's not a problem. I think his answers are viewed as lazy, though. DS says they are sometimes lazy answers, and sometimes not.

I was telling a friend this morning that if he can't get some help at school, I'm just going to turn him loose--no meds, choose his own clothes, no assistance with homework or organization, etc. Then they will see what the real deal is--maybe then he could get some help.

I wouldn't really do that to DS but I think if the school knew how much work we put into DS school they might be more sympathetic that he really struggles.

I will PM you, blackcat.

That is the problem I faced last year. The sped director kept insisting that DD is not failing, and therefore they do not need to do anything for her. The only reason she was doing as well as she was, was because we were making sure she was studying for tests, doing homework, etc. And the teachers seemed to have much lower expectations for her than her classmates, partly because of acommodations already put into place, like a reduced workload. So there really would have been no way for her to fail. I felt like just backing off entirely and letting her go to school without any supplies, without any homework, etc.

The couple days that i sent her to school without her meds were disasters. One teacher sent her to the school social worker because she was so whipped up, and sitting in the hallway by herself ripping papers into shreds (for no reason). She was acting like she was intoxicated and manic at the same time. So for the school administration to tell me that she is not that impaired, and that her educational performance was not impacted by a disability, was ridiculous.

First of all, you are not alone. These issues are all too familiar.

Since some of his teachers apparently "get it," maybe one of them can try to explain to the others about disabilities and 2e? In my experience, some teachers (including those with sped and gifted backgrounds) don't seem to understand that most of the time a disabled child that is struggling can't do the work for various reasons. Instead, they see it as laziness or stubbornness, and think that the kids won't to the work. They need to clearly understand the difference between "can't" and "won't".

Another option is to have a late assignment provision written into your 504. We are almost ready to ask for this, but so far this year the teachers seem reasonable about late assignments due to struggling with disabilities.

Parenting though is an endless task as you have spend what seems like half your life explaining these things to people, and trying to be patient in the mean time. But its worth it of course. Your DS seems like a good kid that just needs some help and time.

Eco, I don't have any advice but I am sending you support and warm wishes.

This is nonsense. Our DS has missed several days of art. The art teacher seems rigid minded (which in my view disqualifies you from teaching art but hey...), but I had a lengthy phone conversation with her in which I explained DS's diagnoses, medications, struggles, and so on until she started to see the forest for the trees.

Now she has agreed that DS will not be penalized for late assignments as long as everything is in by the end of the marking period.

So there is no need for your art teacher to be so uptight. Hopefully he can be talked out of his mindset.

Fingers crossed.

DS' med change made him look like he was on quaaludes. He told me it was "mellowing him out...a little too much."

He has an extended time accommodation but it is only one extra day. So far, he hasn't really needed it. He will, without a doubt, as the year progresses. He's about to need it on a (you guessed it) writing assignment, because he's written about 20 pages, and two different pieces, for what needs to only be a short creative writing piece. So this weekend will be a lot of fun (sarcasm).

DS is the NICEST kid, he is so "good." Upstanding morals, very high standards for himself (although not really academic ones, just his ethical code), honest to a fault. He literally wouldn't (want to) hurt a flea: he found one on our cat and accidentally squashed it and was full of guilt and regret, felt a need to confess. No social savvy, though.

Thank you!

I've had no luck whatsoever explaining DS to anyone who doesn't want to understand.

I am considering having someone else do my explaining, because apparently I do not have the magic touch.

That's actually not a bad idea - does the 504 coordinator understand? I'd seriously consider asking the person who oversees the 504 at your school to have a conversation with the teachers who are being inflexible. There really are people who might *never* "get it" - but if the 504 coordinator can explain what they should be doing both from the disability angle *AND* from the legal compliance angle, and that should help.

Re the points taken off for missing art class - is this the same teacher you had issues with last year (sorry, I can't remember if it was the same school or not last year, but I think I remember the art teacher was difficult?). I understand not wanting to file a complaint with OCR at this point. How high up have you taken your complaint within the school or district? If the school's 504 coordinator can't help with it, you could consider writing an email to the district 504 coordinator explaining the situation. We've had a different situation with our ds (not the same issue, but non-compliance that was in fact a violation of the ADA that we could have filed with OCR if we chose too.. but it was fairly quickly resolved by bringing the issue to the 504 supervisor at the district level.

Sending you lots of good wishes -

polarbear

Like everyone else Eco I just wanted you to know that you are heard and understood and I am really sorry it has been so tough. It sounds exhausting.

There is one thing I know from my DD is that science and math tend to have more precise answers without emotional connotations so those subjects are easier for her. She finds English and History much less appealing because the answer can be "wrong" if it requires an evaluative response. Her complaint is that often it has to be what the teacher wants and expects to hear in order to score well and she doesn't know what the teacher wants. More importantly she often has a different response. Rather than be wrong she becomes paralyzed wondering what is right.

Over time DD convinced herself that she just wasn't good at humanities subjects. Turns out that isn't true but she has had to develop, not just the tools and skills to present critical responses, but the confidence in her own ideas. On the bright side she is starting to love English again with the right teacher and the right material.

This may not be relevant to your son but I thought it was worth pointing out that there are lots of reasons why kids mute themselves in certain situations. Fear and confusion mostly. I hope you find a way to have other people see the DS you know and love. He deserves that and so do you.

This all makes sense and is encouraging! Thank you for sharing. It is exhausting.

We are going to work on the evaluative responses. I think DS *can* do them, but they require more from him energy-wise, and he needs help.

It's a different art teacher, and I don't sense anything inappropriate/rigid...just having a conversation. The participation points didn't have a huge impact on DS' grade, so I'm going to let this one go for now.

This thing turned ugly yesterday. Email from (district) 504 coordinator misrepresenting my concerns (on a different matter) and questioning DS' placement in the program.

I was instructed during 504 meeting to immediately bring up any concern regarding 504 compliance, but I guess they didn't really mean for me to do that.

I can't remember if I had asked this before, but do you have a special ed lawyer? We have been bringing ours to all of the meetings and it can be very helpful. If nothing else, the administrators know you're serious and they won't try to pull the wool over your eyes.

I'm considering this as an option at this point. DS' new psychologist stated "I often tell parents you will win over teachers better with cupcakes than lawyer...but sometimes you need both."


I can't even imagine going that route. If there were a better option for DS, placement-wise, we'd take it. But there isn't, at least not yet.

There is a local sped lawyer and I may consult. This whole thing is so upsetting.

Bringing a lawyer can be very adversarial too. If you bring one then many districts will bring their lawyer too. Then it gets expensive on both sides and that money can be better spent (I mean, unless it has truly escalated to that point).

I don't want to do it. I'm thinking more along the lines of consulting with the lawyer and seeing if she has any advice. I keep thinking I must be doing something wrong on my end, or the communication wouldn't be so strange.

I wish there were a better placement for DS, and am kind of building up Plan B in my mind. He *loves* his program, though.

You shouldn't conclude that you are the problem. Maybe a face to face meeting instead of email? We all know how email can be misinterpreted.

This is true, but we have been lucky so far. Our lawyer is a non-confrontational problem solver (all good ones are, regardless of specialty), and the district has not had theirs at the meetings. All of the meetings have gone well. It is the day to day management of DS's disability that is the problem now.

Full disclosure: I am an attorney and I put a lot of value in having good legal counsel, so I may be a bit biased here, but it has definitely worked for us.

I talked to the principal the other day and used a happy dappy voice. If I had said the same things in an email, it probably would have come across as adversarial or aggressive. The problem is that when you talk to people on the phone, you have no documentation.

The lawyer is a mom of two disabled kids--I imagine she's had every conceivable situation to navigate, personally and professionally. I have no idea if anyone has ever challenged this program. I don't think too many kids would have managed to do as well as DS in elementary with his diagnoses, and would have already been weeded out.

My father is an attorney but is retired. My mother (also retired, master's level counselor) was actually the ADA compliance person at a local university as part of her student services responsibilities. I guess there is a chance I could get my father to research some of this, but since he is resistant to the dx (and is pi$$ed at the school, anyhow), I'm not sure how useful he would be.

The most annoying part of this whole thing is: I don't care about documentation, arguing, or anything else. I just want to help DS learn the things he needs to learn, but without clear communication--I can't do that effectively.

I am looking at this as a marathon year for both DS and me, in the hope that things will become a little easier down the line.

I do think email is part of the problem, but that is the way I've been commanded to communicate.

I asked the 504 Coordinator to call me earlier in the week, but she did not. She seems to have handed over the 504 reigns to the program coordinator, who is not technically in charge of compliance (and is not an administrator). So, it's just really hard to know what I'm supposed to do.

I hear you but if it comes to the point where they try to kick him out of the program, then you may need documentation about all of these conversations and the 504 not being followed. Honestly, though, I'd back off for a while and let the dust settle because it sounds like some people are getting worked up. In my experience, that almost always makes things worse.

My thoughts, exactly.

I think they want me to go away so I'll concede for now, even though I never really got an answer to the question I asked about the 504. I have more important things to do anyhow, like learn about DS challenges, schedule appointments, manage meds, supervise homework, etc. Plus all the other life stuff.

I wouldn't go away, or give up, just take a break for a few days or a week, and pick and choose your battles. Document everything, though, even if you don't address every issue with them. I think this policy they have about kids needing to have a certain grade in every class to stay in the program is ridiculous, and psychologically harmful, even for neurotypical kids. I can understand if a program is simply not right for a kid, a kid isn't putting in the needed effort, or there is no way to adapt the curriculum for a kid with a disability, but your DS is trying hard and would do fine there if they would just do some very simple things to help.

I would keep a notebook or some sort of electronic document of non-compliance for your own personal use (in case you need it later), for instance "Sept. 18th--teacher didn't sign planner, and therefore a math assignment wasn't recorded and didn't get done." Don't necessarily email about every episode, but if it gets to be a regular occurrence with a certain teacher then email 504 manager (or whoever) and say "planner wasn't signed on 5 different dates, and it resulted in late assignments on 3 of them. Can we ask the teacher if there is a way to make it easier?" If the teacher comes back and says "that's not true", you have the dates and specifics.

The problem with all of this is that people get very defensive and want to pin the blame on someone else (most likely you or your DS). I also think a lot of teachers simply don't understand these sorts of disabilities, like ADHD, and think the kid is getting away with murder and just not trying very hard. They don't understand it's a real neurological difference. The Davidson article on "slow processing speed" is a good reference if people take the time to read it. It explains impaired executive functioning and everything. You could email it to everyone and say that it's going to all teachers so no one in particular feels like they are being lectured. Or maybe you have another article that is short and concise and summarizes the main points. It probably won't hurt and might help.

I think the crux of the matter is they do not think the program is a good fit for DS, but don't understand that he would have the exact same issues in any middle school program, since it is all about his EF and communication skills. I don't think he has any more work to manage than he would in a traditional school setting, but I do think the expectation is these students are more functional than the average MS student, and DS is far less so.

His challenges aren't going to go away and I'm doubtful any of them will improve/resolve without focused and direct intervention.

I think what he really needs is an IEP and some direct, contextualized instruction. I don't know if this is going to happen.

I've tried this approach already. I've said my desire is to keep this as low-demand on teacher as possible. I've offered to give up the accommodation that was, evidently, annoying his teacher. I bought a book for his class because he wasn't coming home with what he needed. I suggested if we could come up with a system for DS to turn in his work, we wouldn't need to scan/email--since the work is always in his backpack.

I don't think they are bad people. I think they are coming from a place of not understanding that DS can do this work and needs the accommodations and would need them regardless of placement. I guess they don't think a child who needs this level of support should be in this program. The funny thing is that it's not a lot of extra work. Also, it's only in one class. The others have been no issue whatsoever.

I'll do this and I do have everything recorded, just not in one place.

I don't think it's a matter of not believing DS has a disability (especially since the program encouraged me to seek neuropsychological testing, even with the ADHD diagnosis). I really think they don't think DS should be in this program with his disabilities, and probably that I am in denial about the whole thing.

Ironically, his lowest grades are in his two MS (gifted classes)--80% and 85%. He has one 89% and the rest are over 95%, in his high school classes. There have been no issues with compliance in those classes and it's been low maintenance. He's been scanning/emailing assignments in those as backups but they haven't been necessary. He's used his extra day only once, that I'm aware of, following an absence.

I wish he could just move to 100% high school and be done messing with the middle school.

That is Plan B.

If he can make it through this year, he will only have one MS class next year.

If he can't, I'm hoping to make a case to leave him in the HS classes (as long as he continues to do well), and maybe do virtual/homeschool history/LA.

He really loves his friends in this program. It wouldn't be a total loss, socially, if he can't stay in the gifted part but can stay in HS, because he has MS friends in the HS classes.

Also keep in mind there could be challenges in the classes that appear to be going just fine, it's just that the teachers in those particular classes are giving him more leeway, or they are telling you he is fine because they don't want you to worry, or make a "fuss", etc. I think that I told you before that we actually saw DD's grades inflate after we started the IEP/complaint process. DD was getting better grades for work that was worse than her peers. DD wasn't really expected to DO the assignments. If she had to write a "story" and she put a lot of effort into writing 3 sentences, they gave her an A or B, whereas her classmates would get a C and be told to re-write their story. They graded DD for effort and not actual performance compared to peers. See what I mean? And most teachers don't want to say negative things to parents about how a child with a disability is doing. On the other hand it could be that the classes are more structured/organized, they play to his strengths rather than weaknesses, the teachers are actually following the 504, and he really is functioning just fine (in which case those teachers might say that they don't believe any special services or an IEP is necessary, just to warn you--after all he does just fine in their classes with the 504).

You are not an annoyance at all! Everything you've said here makes sense, and is a different perspective and I appreciate it. It *is* a different way of life. There's a huge mind shift in thinking of DS as super smart with a few ADHD symptoms to a person with ASD, and it changes my perception of what he needs at home and school.

I really like your whole post--it feels like coaching and it's very helpful. So thank you!That is what I meant, really, by "no issues whatsoever." I'm sure teaching DS isn't a cakewalk for anyone, but I haven't heard anything negative from his other teachers and he seems to be doing well in those classes.

My goal for this week is to focus on the positives because the other is upsetting. I hope the school will conclude he needs an IEP, but if they don't--we can work with the 504. I'm wanting him to receive some direct interventions, so I can step back a little and just be his mom some of the time. We'll see.

Yeah, I think the goal should be to teach him some of the organizational skills that he's lacking, not just accommodate, and you can't do that if you're not even at the school. I would push for IEP, but of course, if you are dealing with incompetent people or the case manager would be incompetent (who knows), it's pointless. Given what you've said about how idiotic the school has been about evaluating him, I'm not expecting much.

To me, these folks don't sound incompetent-- they sound ill-informed about the special educational needs of twice-exceptional students.

I think taking a breath to regroup is a good idea. Spaghetti's advice is also very sound.