Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 86 guests, and 12 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Amelia Willson, jordanstephen, LucyCoffee, Wes, moldypodzol
    11,533 Registered Users
    October
    S M T W T F S
    1 2 3 4 5
    6 7 8 9 10 11 12
    13 14 15 16 17 18 19
    20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    27 28 29 30 31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    P
    PanzerAzelSaturn
    Unregistered
    PanzerAzelSaturn
    Unregistered
    P
    Well, maybe some of you remember, but I advocated for DS to move from autistic support to regular ed for his Kindergarten this year. It was a long and difficult battle with lots of phone calls and meetings and research on my part.

    Well, yesterday was the first day of school and it was pretty much a disaster. I got called to have an emergency meeting today. I had been in communication with the teacher before school started and she knew to expect a rough transition into school. It was super rough. She was positive when I picked him up though and confident today would be a better day.

    Today when I went to drop off my son I waited until the PCA arrived (I always did this in preschool with the TSS and no one at the school asked me to leave or anything). After about half an hour I just figured something must be up with the PCA and continued to stay with DS. At some point the teacher stopped by to thank me and said she was amazed how different he was with me there. She was very pleased with his behavior and participation.

    They finally found a different PCA who wasn't busy to cover DS around 10:30. No one has any idea where his assigned PCA is today. I waited around a bit for my meeting, seriously concerned that they were going to put him back in special ed. The whole team showed up for the meeting and that was a shock. The lady who changed the NOREP to the typical classroom (director of special ed for the district) was in charge. I felt like I had let her down! As the teacher went over all of the trouble of yesterday she just listened. Then the teacher talked about how amazing he was today with me there.

    Surprisingly the director of special ed said "Then we need to learn what mom is doing and train the PCA to do it." She also said kids like him can sometimes take months to make the transition into school and we need to give him time to settle in. No one was surprised the first day was as bad as it was. Well, I was surprised just how bad it actually was, but I had been expecting a rough start.

    I gave them some pointers and we all decided a good place to start would be increasing his trust of the staff he will be with. We agreed that he will get some special 1:1 time with the teacher and PCA doing a preferred activity like being read to to help him become more comfortable with taking directions from them. At that point I was pretty happy. I also really like his teacher.

    Then I brought up once again that the IEP still does not include his cognitive scores in present levels. I'm not currently looking for any special programming, but I do want my son officially identified as gifted. He did score above the cutoff (130) and the test was done by the school psychologist. Well, they told me that they don't allow any children in the gifted program who have behavior issues. They also said that there is a checklist of things the kids need to have other than high IQ including high leadership ability and high maturity/social skills to be included in the gifted program. They said that a socially/emotionally immature child like my son would not qualify for gifted programming because it is not determined by just IQ.

    They also said it's a language arts based program and there is no math at all. It's all reading books and writing essays to analyze them. They said it's not for mathy kids like my son anyway. I said that my son is quite gifted at reading as well. Maybe not as much as he is at math, but at least 2-3 grade levels above K. I also said he is not ready to write essays.

    Any way you look at it, there seems to be no chance that my son will be given gifted services there, even if he does get the behavior part down. As for right now I'm not worried about it, but in a few months we may be in a different place. I think DS would love a pull out program with challenging math or just a chance to play board games or logic games with the gifted kids. In fact, I think it would be the highlight of his day. But apparently the gifted pullout is very much set and is only one thing. And only available to perfect kids. Doesn't this violate ADA? And common sense?

    And as far as his day after I left and the new PCA took over? One incident at lunch where he was trying to crawl under the table. The rest of the day he did great. The teacher even sent me a picture in the afternoon of him working nicely with another child on an art project. Hopefully what happened yesterday never happens again. DS has a lot of anxiety and I think he just couldn't control himself. Today when I left him with the PCA and asked him if he was OK with me leaving he said no. I asked why. "Because of yesterday." He was scared he would lose control like that again. But he held it together. I'm very proud of him smile

    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 166
    B
    BSM Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 166
    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He did score above the cutoff (130) and the test was done by the school psychologist. Well, they told me that they don't allow any children in the gifted program who have behavior issues. They also said that there is a checklist of things the kids need to have other than high IQ including high leadership ability and high maturity/social skills to be included in the gifted program. They said that a socially/emotionally immature child like my son would not qualify for gifted programming because it is not determined by just IQ.

    This seems just bizarre. Many gifted kids have what appears to be behavioral issues but are actually skills deficits. The district is not putting the kids' interests first if they do not recognize your son's giftedness.

    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Well, they told me that they don't allow any children in the gifted program who have behavior issues. They also said that there is a checklist of things the kids need to have other than high IQ including high leadership ability and high maturity/social skills to be included in the gifted program. They said that a socially/emotionally immature child like my son would not qualify for gifted programming because it is not determined by just IQ.

    Of course, that's illegal: discrimination due to disability. http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-20071226.html

    There's a lot here that is going well, Panzer-- their response to the rough day is overall quite good. I'd say see how it goes, but I'm impressed.

    Once DS shows his colors with regard to math, I am betting the attentive teacher will see what the needs are, and try to meet them somehow.

    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Apr 2015
    Posts: 647
    Is the gifted program available to other K students? Hard to imagine any kindergartner who is ready for essay writing, gifted or not. smirk I'd look for some kind of district policy and also commit DeeDee's memo to memory.

    It sounds like you were really able to deescalate and help your DS. I hope the rest of the week goes better--I like that the teacher is making sure you understand she cares.


    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,299
    Likes: 2
    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    He did score above the cutoff (130) and the test was done by the school psychologist. Well, they told me that they don't allow any children in the gifted program who have behavior issues. They also said that there is a checklist of things the kids need to have other than high IQ including high leadership ability and high maturity/social skills to be included in the gifted program. They said that a socially/emotionally immature child like my son would not qualify for gifted programming because it is not determined by just IQ.

    So...the cutoff is 130. Rough 2% if the population has this IQ. When they weed out the kids who don't behave perfectly (which is most kids?), the ones who don't have "high leadership ability," and aren't "highly mature," just exactly how many kids will be left for the gifted program? Or is that the point --- that they don't want one?


    Speaking more seriously, Pennsylvania has laws about gifted IEPs, and if the school tested your son and found him to be gifted, it seems to me that they're legally bound to have an GIEP in place for him, which they don't seem to. What have they said about that?

    Does the school keep low-IQ students out of special ed if their maturity, personality,or their behavior doesn't fit some arbitrary profile?

    Here's what I found on PA gifted ed law:

    Originally Posted by PA Gifted Ed. Law; section 16.21
    A person with an IQ score lower than 130 may be admitted to gifted programs when other educational criteria in the profile of the person strongly indicate gifted ability. Determination of mentally gifted must include an assessment by a certified school psychologist.

    (e) Multiple criteria indicating gifted ability include:

    (1) A year or more above grade achievement level for the normal age group in one or more subjects as measured by Nationally normed and validated achievement tests able to accurately reflect gifted performance. Subject results shall yield academic instruction levels in all academic subject areas.

    (2) An observed or measured rate of acquisition/retention of new academic content or skills that reflect gifted ability.

    (3) Demonstrated achievement, performance or expertise in one or more academic areas as evidenced by excellence of products, portfolio or research, as well as criterion-referenced team judgment.

    (4) Early and measured use of high level thinking skills, academic creativity, leadership skills, intense academic interest areas, communications skills, foreign language aptitude or technology expertise.

    (5) Documented, observed, validated or assessed evidence that intervening factors such as English as a second language, disabilities defined in 34 CFR 300.8 (relating to child with a disability), gender or race bias, or socio/cultural deprivation are masking gifted abilities.

    Maturity isn't there, and neither is behavior, so they may be flouting the law on this one. Leadership is there, but is only one of several qualities in a single category that contains the word OR, not the word AND.

    I would consider printing the law out, sending it with a letter, and asking why the school appears to be flouting the law. Don't hand it to them; it has to be in writing or they'll probably ignore you.



    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Well, they told me that they don't allow any children in the gifted program who have behavior issues. They also said that there is a checklist of things the kids need to have other than high IQ including high leadership ability and high maturity/social skills to be included in the gifted program. They said that a socially/emotionally immature child like my son would not qualify for gifted programming because it is not determined by just IQ.

    Of course, that's illegal: discrimination due to disability. http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-20071226.html

    There's a lot here that is going well, Panzer-- their response to the rough day is overall quite good. I'd say see how it goes, but I'm impressed.

    Once DS shows his colors with regard to math, I am betting the attentive teacher will see what the needs are, and try to meet them somehow.

    ITA with DeeDee - and so happy to hear your ds has had a good day, and that his teacher seems to be very willing to work with him and see him for the wonderful child he truly is!

    Re the gifted program - we heard a lot of quick remarks such as this when advocating for our 2e kid - not exactly the same thing, but along the lines of "if a child has a challenge and is receiving services for that challenge, they couldn't possibly qualify as gifted also". One teacher actually told me that *I* needed to choose what ds would be - he could be in the gifted program or he could be in SPED but he couldn't be both because that "wasn't possible" - not as in the program set-up part wasn't possible, but as in this teacher truly believed that gifted kids couldn't have challenges just like anyone else. ARGH.

    I wouldn't look at what was said today as a "no" to the gifted program entry. I would look at it as an uninformed remark made without thinking much on the part of whoever said it. It's most likely true that your district's gifted program has a matrix for qualifying - our district does too, and I've heard of this in other places. But that's the beauty of a matrix - it has more than one place/way to accumulate "points" to qualify. Your ds clearly will have test scores that will look great on his matrix. I'm guessing that if this teacher continues to work with your ds the way she has, she'll see his intelligence and will possibly proactively recommend him for the program = meaning she'd fill out her survey in a positive way. (I'm guessing she's not the exact person who said "can't do!" in the meeting - if she is, then I'm sorry I confused her with someone else).

    I'd also prepare myself for the next time you might here that comment about gifted kids with behavior challenges not being allowed into the gifted program. I'm not sure how you want to reply, but having a reply ahead of time always helped me tremendously, because in the heat of the moment, comments like that throw me for a loop - because I hear it and just can't believe how naive and ridiculous the person stating it was.

    The other thing I do is always write a brief summary email after school meetings (especially team meetings) and include anything I think was said that is important, to clarify and give the team a chance to say "no, that wasn't really what was said" (which happened to me a *lot* when our staff would say obviously not-legal things in meetings). So to follow-up on your meeting today, I'd briefly summarize everything that was discussed, include any decisions with pertinent details, and then also (very matter-of-factly) state that you asked that his ability scores be reported so he could be id'd as gifted, and you were told that he would not be considered for the gifted program because students with behavioral problems are not eligible for the program. Restate it exactly the way it was stated to you (as best you can remember). I'm fairly confident you'll get a quick rebuttal email stating that was a misunderstanding wink

    I'd also check your district gifted policy and see if parents can make a referral. If you can, put the referral in writing and turn it in now smile

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 1,733
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: May 2012
    Posts: 1,733
    I do not have much time at the moment - sorry... BUT I have to chime in quickly because it so ticks me off when schools pull this crap. They (school) told my hairdresser the same thing for her son. (we are both in PA) Her son's FSIQ is 148 and he has severe adhd. They told her he was not welcome in the gifted program because of his adhd ... oh, they put it a little nicer - "he can not be in it because he has behavioral issues," "it would be too difficult for him to do the program since he has adhd," stuff like that. I was so annoyed to hear this - he is exactly the kind of kid who needs gifted programing! With that kind of IQ and adhd?!? And she was sort of buying it... I told her that he needs it more than anything and they are discriminating against him because he has adhd. I told her to tell the school that not considering him for ATP due to his disability (in any manner, including the behavioral results of his disability) was absolutely illegal (and it is in PA) and that it is unlawful discrimination. Once, she said "that is unlawful discrimination against my son due to his disability," he was properly considered, admitted and given a GIEP. And he loves it... and she says it was like he has found his tribe as they are all quirky! He even finally has friends. Then, they told her they wouldn't give him an IEP for his ADHD - whole other ordeal that I helped her with and suffice it to say he has an IEP now. Bottom line? Some schools seem very keen on keeping twice exceptional kiddos out of gifted programming. It's illegal, don't let them do it! Simply tell them it is unlawful discrimination. They know what they are doing - no doubt in my mind. The Dir of SpeEd especially knows that it is illegal - she is banking on you not knowing it.

    Last edited by Irena; 09/02/15 04:34 PM.
    P
    PanzerAzelSaturn
    Unregistered
    PanzerAzelSaturn
    Unregistered
    P
    The teacher actually picked up pretty quickly on the high ability thing. Each time DS leaves the classroom he likes to read all 100 sight words on the board by the door. He reads them quietly, but out loud and as effortlessly and (thankfully) quickly as you or I would. That's been noticed. And he's read all of the signs and posters all over the school. I think he also did some square roots today when talking to either the teacher or PCA. The teacher brought it up in the meeting as a pretty unheard of thing in her classroom. I know she is already on board with seeing that he is pretty amazing at academics.

    The naysayers at the meeting not only told me all of the reasons DS cannot enter the gifted program, they also said they have a lot of smart kids like DS. I don't doubt they have a lot of smart kids. I do doubt they have a lot of kids with quite his level of passion and understanding of math. He's not just counting high or learning to do book math like addition with regrouping. He's able to mentally outperform most adults in basic calculations and he loves multiplication concepts like primes, factors, and, clearly, square roots. With real instruction I have no idea how far he could go.

    They also still refuse to consider his IQ valid as it's a GAI rather than an FSIQ (which wasn't calculated because he was not on task enough to complete the portions involved).

    I remember another thing they require for admission to the gifted program. Creativity. They said it to me like they already know DS doesn't have it. You know, cause of his old, and IMO, not all that accurate autism diagnosis. Not that an autistic kid can't be creative. But they have to adhere strictly to stereotypes or I suppose the whole system falls apart over there. DS is not the world's most super creative person ever, but he comes up with lots of good, novel ideas.

    They did tell me that they have never had a grade K child in their gifted program. They said they very rarely have had grade 1 kids. They don't exclude grade K and 1, but kids that age don't have the skills needed for the program, specifically the writing. And I assume the massive maturity they require. They actually told me that gifted kids are more mature socially and emotionally and that DS is less mature socially and emotionally and that giftedness is more than just an IQ. Basically, even though you did the testing, your kid still isn't gifted.

    I've been fighting this battle since age 3. Me saying he is gifted, them saying he is autistic with splinter skills and hyperlexia. I really thought the IQ test would eliminate the battle, but it has not. I may have to pay for private testing in the spring after he turns 6. I am not even asking for services at this time, just recognition and consideration of his giftedness as part of his profile. With the gifted program that they have I don't think he would enjoy it much anyway. But I bet he would love to hang out with the mature 2nd and 3rd graders in the program and play some games with them!

    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Panzer, they don't believe in DS's profile because they have never seen anything like him before. He is too rare. A teacher will encounter at most one like him (and more likely none)-- they just don't see this coming.

    I'd say give this a little time, support the teachers and their work, support DS's learning to navigate the school setting, and see what the teachers are saying in a few weeks or months. Especially after they start introducing "numeracy concepts." It will be fun to watch as he reveals his powers.


    P
    PanzerAzelSaturn
    Unregistered
    PanzerAzelSaturn
    Unregistered
    P
    BTW, thanks with all of the help with the law. Right now I'm in the trenches on the behavior issue and making sure that he continues to behave well enough to remain in regular ed. I will be better prepared at the next meeting though for the gifted thing. I thought what they were saying sounded unlawful, but I didn't want to fight today as I felt they were being very gracious about the behavior incident yesterday. I was worried when they called the meeting on the second day that they were going to say he absolutely can't do regular ed!

    I really couldn't be happier with his actual teacher. And the kids in his class are very nice. We have encountered some really mean kids over the years on playgrounds and in different preschools and camps. Being in the classroom this morning was actually really great. The other children are generally sweet and well behaved. One other boy has a PCA and had a lot of trouble today and spent much of the day in the hall. The classroom is very diverse and interesting to be in. I almost wish I could work there smile Of course, the admin sucks :p

    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Help with WISC-V composite scores
    by aeh - 10/28/24 02:43 PM
    i Am genius and no one understands me!!!
    by Eagle Mum - 10/23/24 04:11 PM
    Classroom support for advanced reader
    by Heidi_Hunter - 10/14/24 03:50 AM
    2e Dyslexia/Dysgraphia schools
    by Jwack - 10/12/24 08:38 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5