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Now THAT'S an understatement.

We were offered the 1st grade test, but by the school counselor (whom we were seeing because of behavioral concerns related to boredom in K). When we "re-asked" the principal and GT teacher we were "poo-poo"'d [can't think of a better word] into "just lets see how he does next year, after all he's a July birthday. But yes, I do realize EVERYTHING gets more response in writing. Sadly, my husband and I would have to AGREE on giving him the test before pressing the school.
I have attended TAGT Parent & Teacher conference but have not joined. I use their website, Hoagies - constantly, and do a lot of searching Texas State law. I'm undecided on the usefulness of the organization. I'm not yet "into" legislation advocacy or lobbying [BTDT for Cancer Research, need a break!] and it seems to be TAGT's focus. Still, I'm aware of them and enjoyed meeting the other parents. I've also found a local GT Parent Support Group though not in my school district. Still NOT in my school district maybe the most helpful to avoid that "parent-rivalry" cr@p that goes on.

Thanks. I'll need that "explanation" to convince my husband to do it sooner rather than later.

It has and it worked for 2nd grade, but I've been told that in 3rd grade "all they do" is prepare them for TAKS (our stupid state testing invented by the lovely GWB). For the "normal" dyslexics (is that offensive? I'm sorry don't have another word right now) they need help READING the questions on the TAKS so they accurately demonstrate their knowledge. My daughter can read just fine. When they get to the written portion - 4th grade - then she might need help.
Perhaps I'll make a sign that says "They are responsible for their education" and post it on my front door so I see it every time I walk out the door to go talk to the school (less than 100 yards away. I LIVE inside the school zone!:))

Going to that TAGT Conference really helped me "get over that" mistake part. They'd ALL BTDT and then talked about being known in the entire school as "that mom" but then knowing they'd done the right thing when their 10 year old was at the University being mentored in astro-physics. I try to forgive us and move on. Funny or sadly or unfairly, it helps that I am small in stature, quiet in voice, and am known as somewhat of a shy but reliable parent volunteer (I volunteer in the library because a tight classroom full of noisy kids gives me panic attacks). So when I approach people they make assumptions on the strength of my "spine" so to speak. I can certainly play the innocent wallflower to my benefit in ways a 6' woman with a commanding presence could not. Still, often I must say and write 10 times to another "more commanding" parents 5. A squeeky, sweet wheel instead of a loud thundering pounding.
Again, will have to print out your reply and post it to my husband's forehead. I know in alot of ways he means well. He doesn't want to add to my burden (you'll see what I mean later). He also doesn't want to pressure his kids to be super geniuses. I keep telling him that HE isn't they just ARE, it's in their being, their genes. We probably both had/have it too. Mine for one was beat out of me by conformity, the race for grades, and slavery to playing the system. His was sent underground by boredom and a stubborn refusal to "play the system."

I digress (I do it alot, especially when I'm "like this")

Fortunately my older sister (10 years older) has boys staggered between my kids - 10 and 6. The oldest has the most trouble, ADHD, depression, difficulty reading in younger grades, but terribly advanced at math and science. Her youngest is gifted but so far doesn't show signs of LD. We can lean on each other, though we live in different states. We've created a pact not to let MOM know the details of their intelligence to avoid any "family issues". I do feel blessed.

I've read:
*Born to Rebel
*Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline
*The Wonder of Boys (only 1/2 way through)
*How to Raise the Strong-Willed Child (I think that's it, I borrowed it from a friend.)
Everytime I go to the bookstore or scan Amazon I see more and more books that would help. Will add yours to the list of potential contenders.

We've come along way now that we've come to understand his need for COMPLETE order. We have "to-do" lists posted in the bathroom, in his room, on the fridge. I don't know if its that he can't remember what to do next, but more that he LOVES doing things 100% correctly. If there's no check list to "indicate" success, he gets scattered, frustrated, and ornery.

It makes a whole lot more sense than you probably even meant for it to. As I mentioned above (my husband not wanting to add to my burden and how I'm feeling "right now"), I was diagnosed bipolar a year ago. Oddly enough it's a wonderful relief to finally be getting help and to see the light at the end of the tunnel in possibly becoming the person I remember I was capable of being. (Ok, THAT was confusing).

Anyway, 1. I'm currently in a hypomanic phrase, thus the wandering subject matter, VERY long posts and wordy phrases. When I switch over to slightly depressed I'll give one word answers. 2. My children were, quite literally, IGNORED for two months a year go right before my breakdown and diagnosis. (Which only proves more their intelligence as they thrived despite me! It's probably why he taught himself to read at 3 years and 10 months... purse boredom!) So I have misplaced guilt there too. 3.In addition, I'm OCD and it usually expresses itself most during hypomaic phases. I'm productive, wordy, but yes ultimately EXTREMELY PERFECTIONIST to the point of wasting hours and days.

This is my personal struggle and cross to bear. I am just now learning to accept it as fact, get OVER it and "start to show by example that how a[an][imperfect] person can possibly live in a wonderful but imperfect world." Sometime I hope will ultimately help my kids cope (as I was not taught to cope) with their strengths, weaknesses, and the world's responses to them.

I do TRULY TRULY appreciate your heartfelt and sincere reply. Status hasn't changed much right now, except that we've been sending them to camps and grandma's to get away from TV. Also with my new hypomanic phase (was depressed until mid-July), we've got projects lined up (making solar system, human DNA model, art "creations", etc.) When I swing back, they get a bit more time with Discovery Channel, History Channel, Animal Planet, Dirty Jobs, Zooboomafoo, and Scooby Doo. Since we don't even OWN a video game machine, I'm lifting a bit of guilt off my shoulders that way too.
-Jen R

Hi Jen,
((hugs))
OK, so you are facing some extra burdens. You are learning to forgive yourself, and you are growing and changing. To me, that is "playing the hand you were dealt" which is about the best we humans can aspire to. ((high five))

So, Right under "They are responsible for their education" put another sign that says, "In this family, we play the hand we were dealt." Actually I would post the first somewhere where the kids (who are now reading, darn it) can't see as they are growning into being responsible for their own learning, and I don't want to let them off the hook. Maybe the bathroom mirror? Or somewhere near where you sleep, or wait for sleep at night?

It's great that you have figured out your son's need for order, and provided him with checklists. I like Flylady.org for inspiration in keeping an orderly environment. I have found that an orderly home improves everyone's behavior and mood.

Here's another book for the wish list: Misdiagnosis And Dual Diagnoses Of Gifted Children And Adults: ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger's, Depression, And Other Disorders by James T. Webb, Edward R. Amend, Nadia E. Webb, Jean Goerss, Paul Beljan, F. Richard Olenchak, and Sharon Lind
Physicians, psychologist, and counselors are unaware of characteristics of gifted children and adults that mimic pathological diagnoses. Six nationally prominent health care professionals describe ways parents and professionals can distinguish between gifted behaviors and pathological behaviors...


Have you read this article? http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/light_up_the_world.htm

You said:
Originally Posted By: Trinity
Request an IEP, again in physical hard copy, if that hasn't happend yet.

It has and it worked for 2nd grade, but I've been told that in 3rd grade "all they do" is prepare them for TAKS (our stupid state testing invented by the lovely GWB). For the "normal" dyslexics (is that offensive? I'm sorry don't have another word right now) they need help READING the questions on the TAKS so they accurately demonstrate their knowledge. My daughter can read just fine. When they get to the written portion - 4th grade - then she might need help.

I'm glad 2nd grade went well. As for 3rd, I believe that that is where the term "individualised" come in to play. I know that you believe this also, and I pray that your quiet sweet wheel will be enough to keep asking pertenient questions until the school remembers that they know this also. Maybe we should all be reading Plato for Scocratic tips on the are of asking questions.

As to getting DH on board with the testing and gradeskipping...well, I'm assuming that your district wouldn't do anything nowabout the gradeskipping, so focus on testing. I think it's time to explain to your DH that testing your DS will protect you from stress and isolation and protect DS from the dangers of pushing too hard or not pushing enough. Nothing like getting the right data when one is formulating an action plan to decrease stress. I would reccomend putting your argument in writing, and let a trusted friend look it over first so that it's logical, organized, and kind.

He is also going to need to do some reading to take the burden off of you trying to communicate the information to him. Here is the basic minimum that he needs to read to really get with you and not leave you struggling alone:

Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual: A Guide for Whole-Grade Acceleration (K-8) 2nd Edition
by Nicholas Colangelo
New: $21.75

Re-Forming Gifted Education: How Parents and Teachers Can Match the Program to the Child
by Karen B. Rogers
New: $21.75 33

A Nation Deceived: How Schools Hold Back America�s Brightest Students The Templeton National Report on Acceleration (free, download from this link!)
Acceleration is a powerful educational ally, but it�s a strategy that requires participation of parents as well as sensitivity to individual needs and circumstances. For that reason, this report is designed not only to persuade readers of the value of acceleration, but also to help schools administer acceleration programs effectively...

It may sound like alot, but Reforming Gifted Ed is more a manual, with lots of charts, to be used as a reference book. Also the Iowa Scale Manual, is mostly pictures, but an invaluable reference book, which although it says Acceleration right in the title, really focuses on all kinds of accomidation. The meat of the matter is Nation Decieved, and the best place to start. Full of logical facts and figures.


Be Well, Be Strong, and Enjoy!
Love and More Love,
Trinity

Hi,
I'm almost in tears here (wouldn't be the first time)! Maybe someone can help. I guess I should have signed up for this forum LONG ago. I have a son who will be in the 6th grade next year. He was identified as gifted in third grade. It was about the end of second grade when I started noticing lack of motivation. From that time on I have been in constant contact with my school regarding his situation.
There really isn't much they would do, because in our district if your child doesn't perform/test 2 grades levels below his current grade they don't qualify for "Special Ed" (there's probably a different name for it end of the spectrum).
In third grade, my son WAS put into the "gifted program" offered at his school. This was an after school program (ie, for an underachiever especially, MORE WORK!!!) They studied conservation, environment etc. He didn't enjoy it. I have discussed "differentiation" and "clustering" at "Gifted Meetings"
with the district (which do absolutely nothing, I think they have them only to make it LOOK like something is being done for our gifted students).
Finally, last year they did a full spectrum of testing (I was told by an outside professional that they were "good, quality tests"). He of course did average to above average on all of the tests (except for one). So once again this confirmed his lack of need for help. (according to the school).
He wasn't turning in "quality work in writing (ELA)" so there was a plan put into place to pull him out DURING class send him to the "learning center" (which of course has a stigma, especially for kids)and put him with a "tutor" to assist in this area (although I was mostly concerned about the fact that he CAN'T memorize his times tables!) He started seeing the tutor, she told me that he was an "excellent writer". She said "he writes better than most 5th graders" I was aware of this..he CAN do it, he just WON'T do it.
So now I have a son who is EXTREMELY unmotivated. He HATES everything about school. How am I supposed to get him into an "accelerated" program where he will be excited about learning
when he won't perform even the LOW level work he is currently assigned. I want to put him into some type of program that will meet his needs. I'm afraid he will only see this as "more work".
I have read pretty much EVERY book out there on this, underachievement, gifted, misdiagnosis, learning styles, brain research on how boys learn vs how girls etc. (I'm sure I haven't read them ALL..but an awful lot!) I need a starting point. Obviously the things I've tried in the past aren't working.
It's killing me to see my son fail. Not for me, but for him. He seems SO unhappy, he has extremely low self esteem, he NEVER tries anything new, and he gives up on everything. I believe this is because of the fact that he has never REALLY been successful at anything! (Due to the fact that he has never been challenged in school, I believe he has never felt true success, the rewards of working hard and achieving a goal.)
Can anyone help me with where to turn for an education for my son. Help with motivation. etc?
Sorry to write so much, it's hard to explain this situation with few words.

Holly,
I�m sorry that you are so distressed right now. My son is slightly more motivated in school, but I see how fragile that is. Meaningless and subjective work drains energy and drive!

I discuss the fact that his current situation is a means to an end. For us this means getting into a high school that has high criteria for admittance. He is currently going into sixth also. Actually, I am hopeful that sixth grade will be better than previous grades. It seems that the work is actually more meaningful and the teachers are very bright.

My advice is to validate what he already understands. A majority of what is required at school has very little to do with education and quite a bit to do with learning to shut up and color. The goal is to hang in there until he gets to a level where the learning is important. He has to play the game to advance to the next level.

I believe that giftedness in combination with idealism is a liability for our nation�s smartest children. Maybe if he knows you understand, he will find renewed drive.

Help! my son is 10 yrs old and been tested gifted since the 3rd grade. Our shcool although helpful but not effective. He has become so bored with school that he has become emotionly withdrawn from class."He wants to study Greek history" He has formed is own opininons about politics. We have been told that he reads and understands at a 8th grade level.
Sadly I am confused at the fact that when given the chance to go to a gifted school, he did everything in his power not to pass the admissions test so that he could stay with his friends.
I am afraid that due to my lack of knowlege on how to raise a gifted child that he might fall thru the cracks.
I sort of stunmbled on this web site and pretty impressed thus far hopefuly point me in the right direction.

thankyou

To Both Holly and Eric,
My advice is to find something that they do love, something that will create a spark of enthusiasm. That thing may not be school and it may never be school. I come from a family of highly gifted people who hated school, but went on to be successful as farmers, fisherman, sailors, pilots, and leaders in the community. They invent stuff in their basements that other people copy. They are happy adults. The thing that they have in common was that, even though, they hated and resented school, there was something that they did love. In most of their cases, they learned best by doing rather than watching or listening. They suffered through school, but came home and took apart engines or built model airplanes. There are other kids who love art, music, sports, studying subjects not taught in depth in school. There are kids who join ham radio clubs and others who join the society for creative anachronism.

I would encourage you to put getting them to like school on hold (if you have tried everything and its not working) and find something else in their life that might ignite a spark or love of learning and exploration. Make sure there is at least one thing that makes them tick that they have time and resources to explore--that will keep them sane. At least that what has worked for my brothers, father, and uncles.

Hi Eric and Holly,

first I love acs's advice about finding and nurturing that which they do love.

second, you don't say what level of gifted they are. Are they PG, as defined by the YSP enterance scores? It is worth it to find out if they are Ruf II or Ruf level IV! It makes a big difference. See:

Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind by Deborah L. Ruf
Using gifted children as examples, Ruf illustrates five levels of giftedness, which parents will be able to estimate in their child by comparing developmental milestones...

or you can start with a web version at educationaloptions.com

http://www.educationaloptions.com/raising_gifted_children.htm


For example, Eric, if your son is offered a gifted school that caters to Level II, but he is Level IV, he is going to only have more busywork, that requires more time, but doesn't give him the "raw meat" of learning that he needs.

I would also reccomend finding a psychologist who can administer the SM-V, and has lots of experience with Gifed, or Highly Gifted kids, and can advise you. If you child is Ruf Level II there may be some local folks who can do this for you, if Ruf Level III or higher, then prepare to travel. There has been so little recognition of the difference that levels of gifteness make, and there is so much.

BTW - My son did't teach himself to read, and learned in first grade, and is still at least Ruf Level III, and in the Davidson YSP program...it was the quality of deep inquiry into the nature of life that should have tiped me off, but didn't.

Holly, it sounds like you like books, here's what I'm reading now: http://www.sylviarimm.com/uii.html

Why Bright Kids Get Poor Grades--and What You Can Do About It

By Dr. Sylvia Rimm

Special online price
SR-400S - 425 Pages - Paperback - $13.50

Guidebook-Underachievement Syndrome: Causes and Cures
(Not Pictured)

By Sylvia Rimm, Ph.D., Michael Cornale, M.S., Roland Manos, Ph.D., and
Jeanne Behrend, Ph.D.

Special online price
SR-101S - 373 Pages - Paperback - $13.50

I haven't finished it yet, but so far I like it. It cautions against too much sympathy.


Holly, you said -
How am I supposed to get him into an "accelerated" program where he will be excited about learning
when he won't perform even the LOW level work he is currently assigned. I want to put him into some type of program that will meet his needs. I'm afraid he will only see this as "more work".

This is the key to why many parents choose homeschooling. One thing I hear on the YSP lists is the "Goldilocks Problem." This materal is too easy, so I can't/won't consentrate on it - but that materal is too hard, plus I'm not used to working hard, so this alarms me, Where is "just right?"

My DS10 is going through this with his trombone at the moment. Minus the "not used to working hard," because last summer I switched him to a private school with a grade skip - into middle school - OUCH. I do agree that middle school is better than elementary school, because the teachers may be more "specialized" into their subject materials, the flexable schedual may allow independent study or single subject acceleration. Or not....

In the big picture, if your child is highly gifted, than the only way for them not to be underachieving is 1) grade skip, or 2) homeschool or 3) a tutor that comes to the school and teaches during "independent study time." If your child is more normally gifted, then afterschool or summer-time, might be enough if they can find that special love in the non-academic world.

There is Underachievement, where your oversensitive heart aches at the sheer waste, but they get A's and B's and can wait it out, with a strong parent-child relationship, and then there is Underachievement where they get D's and C's and phone calls from the police! Remember that there isn't any agreed definition of either gifted or underachievment. Keep looking, here and IRL, try to discover your own unappreciated gifts so you can model being a learner to your children, gifted conferences may help. Apply to Davidson YSP is your boys scores met the criterion. think about talent search summer camps for next summer, whatever else you do.

Best Wishes,
Trinity