Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional coming down from the ledge

You all helped so much when I was ready to commit myself to the psych ward re: DS horrible year in 6th grade. Still no report, still no diagnosis, still haven't managed to have interview with NP to answer additional developmental questions.

But what a difference a couple of weeks makes! He is happy again! I see my boy again and it warms my heart and makes me want to homeschool (he will not hear of it).

I was sorting through old memorabilia today trying to declutter--and found a stack of kindergarten/1st grade assignments and saw it through such a different lens. In the "old days," when he responded to a writing prompt in extremely literal ways--it seemed cute, silly, and a little clever. Nobody thinks that stuff is cute any more when one is 12 and has developed an acerbic personality. Sigh.

Here is what I have decided. Regardless of what NP finally decides upon, this kid of mine has some definite social communication deficits, is a rigid thinker, and all-around hard to understand because he is so verbal (and yet says so little, really). I also believe there is some sort of problem with written expression but I don't understand that one completely. His writing does not "match" his intellect.So I will approach this from that angle, regardless.

Besides these neuro-atypical thingamabobs, I have realized something else about DS. He really has no interest in doing any sort of work, sustained effort, practice, etc., except when it is something he's decided upon or is masterminding. Even his beloved euphonium has laid untouched so far. I don't think he cares much at all about actually learning the instrument and excelling--he just likes playing in the band and enjoys playing music "in the moment" but not as a discipline.

I have no idea whether the better idea is to push him and make him learn a work ethic, or to resign myself to having an underachieving, free-spirited, but *happy* child, for now. I will not do what I did this last year--he either has to get with the program or he can leave the program. It can't be all on me.

Has anyone ever decided just to let their child march to whatever drumbeat seems to be easiest? I am really enjoying easy right now.

No, we haven't decided to do that--- but, OH, how much I can identify with the yearning to do just that.

Just know this:


it DOES pay off eventually.

Our solution was that when DD signs on for something, she's COMMITTED to seeing it through (for however long the commitment lasts, or however long parents deem it worthwhile-- we're not inflexible about it, but she'd otherwise be a total dilettante).

Piano and learning to drive are the two things that were much more OUR notion than hers, at least after the initial buzz wore off. She knows that we have rational reasons for insisting on those things (and we do).

We also talk openly about work ethic, and determination, motivation, and resilience.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but DD is awfully stubborn and man, does she ever have a temper when crossed. Her dad and I have the fortitude to patiently wait out her tantrums, but it isn't always easy.

It does help, thank you. I became so exhausted and overwhelmed with it all. My son doesn't really have a bad temper but he is SO passively-resistant that it came down to what felt like threats (and that is not my preferred MO--ha!) I guess they weren't exactly threats, but statements of reality: if you want to stay in this program, you have to do the work. This would usually get his attention, but it felt like such a heavy toll to pay.

I have no way of knowing, really, what drives his passivity. There were so many variables--medication issues, MS transition, puberty, depression. I do know that I do not especially want him to live in my (metaphorical) basement in adulthood, reading *everything* about his current interest, drawing, and asking bizarre philosophical questions at each crack of dawn...

This is a hard, hard job. I have privately nicknamed him Bartleby the Scrivener because he "prefers not to" on just about everything, unless it's been outlined, mind-mapped, explained to his satisfaction, and then enforced *perfectly* in a way that convinces him without causing him to decompensate.

I really do want the EASY button, but it does not exist.

This just might make the basis of a book someday... or some song lyrics... if he keeps a journal or portfolio of his ideas.

He may need to find something which internally motivates him, and can be monetized. Have you considered introducing him to basic budgeting... whether with an allowance... or a household budget... and possibly the types of jobs identified by the bureau of labor statistics along with salary info... or a similar presentation of majors and careers from college board?

Middle school is not too early to begin thinking, planning, preparing for one's future, according to books such as What High Schools Don't Tell You... and It's the Student... not the college, and college admissions counselors such as this one.

Glad to hear that you see your son is happier now that school is over. I've been there myself.

I've tried taking a bit of a middle ground since my DS16 had problems in 6th grade. We backed off in 7th & 8th grade quite a bit except for math. And I've made sure he isn't over scheduled and that includes homework load.

I've let SUMMERS be summer. DS goes to CAMP in the wilderness. It is the one thing in the year that makes him truly HAPPY. Tried a writing camp last summer and that backfired. He is supposed to do AP homework and study for the SAT later this summer but that is only after he is back from camp.

I've cut down expectations in English & Social Studies but not in Math & Science. Next year as a junior my DS will not be taking the crazy AP load that most of the other kids who were with him in his 6th grade class will be. (One mom described the schedule her daughter was taking 5 AP classes, 3rd year language & band.) This is not ideal because he is a very advanced reader but at this stage my goal is to get him through high school, emotionally intact and with a GPA respectable enough to attend a university good enough to challenge him.

blue: I am thinking that is the approach that will work best for DS in high school. I don't really think IB is going to be a good route for him (that's the track, typically, for kids in his program). He is not a high energy kid and fatigues easily, doesn't like a lot of busy-ness (unlike DD, who craves more, more, more).

So now we have to get through 7-8. Next year he gets to take two electives that will be exciting for him. Maybe just a little maturity will help? I've never been a boy going through puberty and not sure how it affects boys, emotionally.

I know his future is important but the now is pretty important, too--nobody knows what the future holds, anyhow. Balance sounds like a good approach.

He has a job this summer in a law firm--really my friend is doing a favor, but he's excited about beginning. We have had a lot of talks about how it's important to find a career that plays to strengths--and that while he does have to work on his organization skills, etc., he doesn't have to pursue something that is heavily paperwork, administratively oriented. He has a strong entrepreneurial streak and is very creative. And, oddly, despite his poor social awareness in school--is very good at "formal" social skills--gregarious, good manners, etc. It's almost like he will be much better when he can be a real grown-up, socially. I don't think he knows how to be a kid.

He is definitely going to need an administrative assistant. And a highly organized wife.

Eco, I'm going to write from the perspective of parenting my DS-- may or may not fit yours.


His passivity is not IMO a personality quirk but part of the neurologically atypical stuff.

We have trouble with:
--initiation (hard to start)

--not seeing the steps that lead to success clearly (being able to think ahead/organize/anticipate)

--not being able to organize the steps (much much easier to do what's comfortable than learn unfamiliar steps; worse in situations that have high stakes)

These are all EF issues very common to people who have ASD or ADHD.


I would try not to dwell on the long term future (and its possible specters). Rather, I like a 3-5 year planning horizon.

Look at the next few years, and decide what skills are missing that are needed within that horizon. Pick one, work on that. Let the rest be easy until that's mastered. Then pick another.

Our process is to decide what behavior we want to see, support that behavior so he knows what it's supposed to look like, and then gradually fade the support.


YES.


Yep. We cannot (still, age 12) say "clean your room." We have to break it into sub-tasks. (Pick up laundry and put it in the basket; all books back on shelves.) By teaching and reinforcing the sub-tasks you can work toward independence in a manageable way, with fewer freakouts.

We certainly cannot say "study for your final." We have to build a plan that divides this into reasonable subtasks, and then help him stick with it.

BUT I can say that we are seeing huge improvement with this kind of support. I am very pleased with this process so far.

I guess what it boils down to is a middle road (like Bluemagic said)-- not letting him get away with "rather not" but also supporting him in trying to do stuff so that it doesn't result in personal crisis.

I will also say that demonstrations about stress in new situations are not inherently to be avoided-- rather, they're a sign that you're somewhere at the top of the ZPD. Don't dial all the way back so that there are no freakouts-- support through the freakout toward the desired result instead.

This may, in some cases, be medical.

Excellent! You may wish to coach him to
- keep a private log or journal of his daily duties (as one would typically need to do for an internship),
- write a weekly essay on something which he has learned,
- research action verbs (such as this list from about.com),
- polish his descriptions (to a form one would typically use to present themselves on their resume or curriculum vitae (CV)),
- proactively purchase a journal or notebook, ring binder, project box, file, or some other means of organizing/containing/keeping his work.

Some may say that a focus on remediation is, at age 12, a more solid plan than establishing requirements for future supports and accommodations for his career and marriage.

Same issues here with DD11. Combined with anxiety, this can easily create an "I would prefer not to" situation.

My DD does not yet have a diagnosis, but I have found this website helpful with approaches to schoolwork: http://www.additudemag.com/

We chose to send DD to the less challenging magnet middle school for the sake of everyone's mental health. The difficulty level is not the issue; organization and amount of busywork is. I am coming to see that her "other" issues may mean that compromises will be made. That is okay. Not all the way to easiest. But easier.

FWIW, sometimes I think that we are trying to do is just stuff that most children need to be taught anyway but aren't. I mean, some kids are naturally really motivated and organized, but not THAT many.

Yes, yes, and yes. All of the above. One of the trickiest parts of this is that it might as well be a case of the blind leading the blind. I have done ALL of my learning without knowing how to do these things--and choosing subject areas in which sudden bursts of intellectual energy were effective. Good thing, too, because that was the only tool I had. It has greatly limited my career success. I hated teaching because of the heavy organizational load and never feeling like I had it together--this despite getting a lot of feedback about being quite talented at working with the children. I learn like my son: through obsession and osmosis. It is hard to teach a skill one does not posses herself. Like my son, I do much better when I am not required to multitask.


This made me LOL. I think (hope?) that I am not quite as catastrophic a thinker as I appear to be when I write. I will say this: there is no doubt that much of my panicky thinking is driven by my eldest son's situation (mental illness). And *he* was quite an exceptional student all the way through high school, who required no support at home--self-motivated and driven. Clearly, this is something that needs to be worked on with my own therapist.


Here is the pickle: my gut feeling is that if DS could just get a handle on the social behaviors, the rest of it would not be so difficult. For one, I think the teachers expect gifted students to be a bit flaky, organizationally. Secondly, I think they would be more tolerant and supportive of the EF stuff if they liked him. That was certainly the case in elementary school. The reason I say it's a pickle is because the most off-putting behaviors seem to only occur in the context of the classroom, when he is with his peers. Of course, I do correct him at home when he is blunt and insensitive--but it doesn't happen as often here, and I am far less likely to take offense. Not sure how to help him generalize "perspective taking."


This is how we do room-cleaning here, too. When I have the gumption. A lot of our home life involves my doing everything, just because there is so much to do and I don't have time to do it right. A DS "freakout" is nearly always withdrawal and avoidance. He doesn't melt down often--he goes internal, scowls, and ignores.

Okay, this has me rolling! You are arguing against an arranged marriage? hee hee

I like your ideas about doing some journaling type things re: being law clerk. I think for him it would be best to let him use photos and Presi type things. I can't imagine his being willing to essay about it--although he might, if I offered to type. He does NOT like expository writing one bit (but does enjoy creative writing) and the main objective in this "internship" is for him to experience some success in the presence of adults who really enjoy his company. That, and I can't wait to see him in his little lawyer outfit: he is very excited about a white button-down and a red tie. It was his first response to the proposal.

Yeah, we have anxiety in spades around here and I agree that is a huge component of it. I think when DS has to do something he doesn't enjoy and feels like drudgery, he becomes overwhelmed with anxiety. When he loves what he is doing, he is kind of a "jump and the net will appear" kind of person in his approach. It works with his personal projects but not with homework.

Ultimately, this was the deciding factor when I chose not to bail out of his program. ALL of the problems he was having were problems he will have at any middle school and were not related to the material being too difficult. He may have been somewhat stressed by having to (finally) learn something at school, and that may have been a piece of the puzzle. It was not the biggest one. He told me that he could not bear to go back to "regular school" because this was the first time he wasn't bored in class. I had some trouble with his getting poor grades--but have realized that is my issue. It is probably better to get Bs and Cs while actually learning than to skate through with As because it requires effort. I admit, though, I would prefer the As. His goal for next year is to improve to As and Bs and if he can get himself together, that is certainly possible.

Dh has 3 brothers and 2 parents and I think every single one of them has ADHD to some extent. First time I went to Dh's house, there was a motorcycle parked in the living room. All of them are extremely passive and laid back. The parents obviously care about their kids but have a very hands off approach, with "happieness" being the goal. Let's just say that of the 4 kids, one of them was living with them til he was practically 30. The other 3 got married young to wives who took control and whipped them into shape to the degree that that is possible. The one who lived there til almost 30? The wife was there too for the first few months of their marriage, and now they are in their mid-thirties, would like to start a family, but cannot because they are in low wage jobs. BIL was in college for years but kept flunking or dropping classes and finally dropped out. He tried again recently, same thing happened, apparently. He doesn't stick with anything. So in his case, the hands-off laid back approach did not work. He never got his act together. He has a gifted level IQ, was a national merit scholar (or semi-finalisit?), and never got a degree.

Also....right now your DS is at an age where you can force him to do things, but in another few years that may not necessarily be possible. So I would start now. I wouldn't go over the top and make him miserable or stressed, but find some balance. We are dealing with the same thing. DD really wants to keep taking piano lessons but the practice is like pulling teeth. She wants to be in an advanced math group but then doesn't want to do the homework. Same with DS. I don't want to be "pushy" but don't want them to to turn into sloppy, lazy adults either.

Well, yes. Apples, trees. If the kid had organized parents, he would probably be an organizing type. We are the same-- we organize what we must and many things slide.

However, you have learned some coping skills over the years that put you ahead of him regardless of the genetic inheritance. In a given situation (especially when you are about to do something for him) I like to ask myself-- what would it be useful for him to learn here? And then figure out and teach that useful thing.

It is increasingly important to my sanity that all family members be responsible for their own deals. We must all grow up. Even if it is gradual.


I was joking. Because most of us parents of kids like your DS have that precise image in their heads.

But I'm also serious about the time horizon. This stuff gets done if you work on it. Truly.


I am so glad you have therapeutic help in place, because this level of worry and care does wear a parent down. Good for you.


I do a lot of explaining. "When you say X, I think Y, and I get upset. If you would please say it this way, I wouldn't get my feelings hurt." "When you said X, it made teacher Q angry because she thought B...."

Over time, this does seem to take. He doesn't have the x-ray vision, but he can learn through instruction and practice, with debriefing as needed.

I think it's not a pickle-- it's just that you have now set a priority for what to work on first. All good.


I would treat that the same way as an externalizing freakout, though. Scowling/ignoring/rudeness is disallowed (because disrespectful). You are allowed to feel however you feel on the inside, but on the outside, you have to respect the person who is giving the instructions and follow them (if the person is in a role that demands it-- parent, teacher-- or if safety or morals are at stake).

We are fairly insistent parents, of the "fake it till you make it" school. You do not have to enjoy cleaning your room, but you have to do it when asked, without overt disrespect... over time, as the skill is mastered and becomes less of a big deal, the disrespect goes away anyhow.

Absolutely! The ideas of supporting him at home to build journaling/vocabulary/essay around this experience are to:
- leverage something he likes and is interested in to strengthen reflection and written expression skills (not to make the work burdensome or drain the fun out of what he is interested in)
- reflect on his internal experience of what he is interested in, about the internship
- become aware of what triggers a change, if at some point he may appear to lose interest in the internship (for example: social dilemma, sense of things piling up, boredom with repetition, too much (or too little) structure)
- if all goes well, have this positive experience to refer to, when he may, in future academic settings, be required to reflect and give written expression to his ideas and experiences.

Possibly he may have a penchant for dressing the part... playing a part... trying new roles... acting... has he participated in theatre experiences? Or might he like to?

Myself, I would not force the writing during the summer if he hates to write. If social skills are priority 1, I'd put my focus there, with lots of practice opportunity, debriefings where relevant, and just generally conversation about what's going on in these new experiences.

If I tried any kind of journaling plan with my DS12, it would devolve into a great deal of aggravation for all parties.

If your DS is willing, then go for it. But if not, and it's not priority one at this point, pick your battles.

The writing process includes a lot of cognitive function before the pencil is set to paper. Address the language and social skills issues, as these are a lot of what I see you mentioning with regards to his writing skill. Get the language skills in place independent of writing, and then work to translate.

DS and I will be working on "writing" this summer, but no words will go onto the page. It will be through working on flexible thinking, clarifying meaning and sequencing of thoughts. We'll do this mostly with Story Cubes and reading together.

We tried a writing class for my son last summer that didn't work out. He has similar writing problems as OP. We ended up requiring DS (15 at the time) to journal every day. He wasn't happy but I insisted. Rules were he needed to write at least a page. Could be about anything but writing the same lines over & over didn't count. I wasn't going to read it, no one was going to grade or evaluate it but he did need to SHOW it to me so I could see he was doing something. It did get easier with time but we did abandon it when schools started and I'm not sure how much it helped.

With a kid this age, it takes his buy-in, as well as a very clear understanding of what problems are to be worked on and how. We work on goals over the summer (we work on goals all the time, it feels like), but we try to make those goals harmonize with DS's projects and plans rather than making them an extra time commitment.

If writing is a problem area, I'd want to make sure it gets into the IEP as a priority during the school year (with lots of detail about what the present level of achievement is for different kinds of writing, and what skills are missing). Often taking family out of the equation of writing instruction helps.

I wouldn't attack writing while you are also prioritizing working on social perception, and while he's probably going to be working to accept new diagnostic information about himself. He will need some time to just be, and not to be pushed to remediate his deficits all at once. Nobody likes feeling like they are someone's project.

indigo--although it would seem like he might be a good candidate for acting, that has been a giant non-starter with DS. He and his sister like to write plays and record them, but when I tried to put him in an enrichment class (young elementary age) he had one of his very first "freak outs" and refused to ever go back because it was so noisy and chaotic that it upset (REALLY upset) him. One of the things his teacher was up in arms about this year is that he "refused" to do the "movement breaks" (dancing/singing stuff" with the rest of the class. I don't think it was defiance as much as freak-out, though.

I don't think he is conceptualizing the summer job as play-acting. He is really seeing himself as a young man with a job, and the shirt/tie is a status symbol.

Really the only things I can think of that do *totally* freak him out are related to noisy environments, natural disasters, alarms, stinging insects, and public humiliation.

Re: writing. Nobody has ever said this is a problem for him, academically, and I think he does okay when it's in class (and he is on stimulant med). At the end of the year, though, there was an asinine "cursive essay" he had to write and it was painful to watch him stare down that paper for literal hours. He can't write in cursive with any sort of ease--it was torturous. (And they don't even teach kids cursive any more, so wasn't sure of the point.) I have noticed his writing doesn't come close to his conversational ability--it's stilted, repetitive, and immature.

I wouldn't dream of making him write over the summer. I realize this is probably not mainstream but I will not actually "force" him to do anything, ever. I use more of a when you do X, then you may Y, and don't allow electronics if he does not comply (really the only thing that influences him). We have a pretty close relationship and once I've explained something to him (and its importance), I can usually gain cooperation. I have a lot of trouble understanding the importance of a lot of things, myself, so this is probably informing my approach.

I sure would like it if the NP would call me back...

Agreed. Introducing these concepts does not mean to imply "forcing."