Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Grade skipping thoughts

We've ended up with an interesting opportunity out of the blue that's still developing, but I'd like to think this through before I need to really decide.

We undid a homeschool grade skip for our DD for a variety of reasons, placing her back into her age grade although she works roughly 2-3 years ahead across the board.

The details need to be hashed out, but she has been unofficially invited to particapate in the music program in a neighboring district. This district is highly competitive in developing musicians in their band and orchestra and often compete at the state level for their marching band. This is for an instrument she's been playing for only a month or two. This is her second instrument, and we never considered her gifted in music, just able and interested.

She has a few friends at the school because she participates in a club sport. I'm not sure if she would need to be enrolled, but I don't think we'd be interested in it full time, anyhow.

The quandary is that I think she would then officially be grade skipped again making her less competitive on certain tests, competitions, etc. How does it work if a homeschooler takes a B&M school class?

We don't know how gifted she is- when she saw a pysc a few years ago, she ceilinged a couple of subtests, but was also uncooperative and we ran out of time.

I don't want to put her at a disadvantage by having her participate if we get the green light. She loves math, and I don't want to put her in a situation where she'd miss a cut off on a qualifying score to get into camp or something because of her official on-paper grade. She's already on the young end for her age-grade.

Any experience?

If your child is already working 2-3 years ahead across the board, what's the purpose of keeping her in the lower grade?

Otherwise, it seems like a tension between "learning" and "winning." I favor the former.

I can't worry about what ifs for things I have no control over. I only worry about what is right for my child right now. (I won't jeopardize college scholarship status is the one exception).

The thing is if my kid has needs great enough that he needs skipping then he will be competitive in the next grade up too...maybe he won't win but maybe that will be good for him too. I'd rather a well fought loss than a win in a division that isn't a challenge.

When they tested my child for a third grade skip in math he knew 84% of the 3rd grade math. They then gave him the 4th grade math and he knew 75% of that content. If they had given him 5th grade test he probably would have known 65-70 percent of that. Can they say that most of the kids entering 5th grade would have that high a mastery already? He could have done well in 5th grade math.

If your child is competitive one year doesn't matter.

You've received great advice already. I'll just add two things:

1) You may wish to learn all you can on the subject of underachievement, especially:
- how underachievement may develop when there's not a challenge worthy of one's potential,
- brain changes which may occur,
- the difficulty in reversing underachievement.

2) You may wish to become familiar with the concept of developing a growth mindset.

If whole grade acceleration is contemplated at some point in the future, you may wish to be aware of the Iowa Acceleration Scale (IAS) and supporting research.

Not winning. Just the opportunity to compete.

She was grade skipped initially by a professional, and we agonized over undoing it.

I guess what I'm asking is- has anyone missed an opportunity because their grade was too high on paper? I do know of some who lost scholarship money when they undid a grade skip in high school.

We won't be undoing our grade skip...if he needs a gap year or a year to study abroad...we might consider that. But no need to undo.

Leaving aside the question of appropriate grade placement for a moment...before you expend too much energy agonizing, I would confirm that this would actually affect her nominal grade placement. It is by no means unheard of, or even all that unusual, for age-typical students to "play up" in invitation/audition-only sports, music, dance, arts, etc.

It's like the freshman who play on the varsity team. No one thinks it makes them ineligible for competing as ninth graders in other areas, or for playing all four years of high school.

Based on other information you've provided, a grade that is "too high on paper" may be indicative of lack of challenge in one's zone of proximal development. This can lead to onset of a fixed mindset, and underachievement (possibly combined with perfectionism and procrastination). If this occurs, there is a huge loss of opportunity.

Will she only be taking this one class? I am not sure why she'd officially need a grade level if she is homeschooled otherwise. Maybe I am missing something, but aeh's example makes sense to me.

Yes! This is what I'm trying to find out. Sometimes I get better information on a list like this than I can locally.

Okay- I was trying to reply on a mobile device before and wasn't explaining adequately.

Thanks for the varied input.

I see where you think I'm trying to win here. It's really not like that. She's never gotten "first prize" in her life.

Unfortunately, opportunities for bright kids are very thin around here, and I don't want to do something stupid so she doesn't have a chance to even compete later.

There are some concrete examples of where it matters. If I have her take the Explore test, that is by grade. I know of grade-skipped kids who were ineligible for opportunities that would have been available to them if they had taken the test as their age-grade and not their grade-skipped grade. To a lonely kid in rural area, that opportunity could be a life-line.

After she was grade skipped, we discovered among local homeschoolers, at least, there is a lot of "better late than early" people. So the one area where she can compete (4H), she's competing against much older kids who claim to be the same grade. (No math club, science fair, etc available around here.)

When an acquaintance lost some scholarship money, we decided the on paper grade skip was not helpful, when as homeschoolers, were able to challenge her at the appropriate level. It's easier to graduate early than undo a misguided grade skip.

Anyhow, homeschooling, for us, is the gift of time.

She would maybe need to enroll as a part-time student. I know at the High School level she would, but I'm unclear about the rules at the Junior High level. If she enters school, she has a transcript.

I am collecting information at this point.

So, that is why I asked for your experience. Would anyone like to share their experience with a similar situation?

Thanks!

The PROs and CONs of acceleration are a frequently revisited topic. These threads may be of interest:

Effects of Early Grade Acceleration

Grade skipping trade offs

Did you double grade-skip a young child

I read your comments to mean she is being taught at her level at home and that she is 2-3 years above what her age peers are taught in school. As long as she isn't being held back at home, I don't think it matters what number grade you really give her. It sounds like in 4H, club sports, and other things, you feel the appropriate challenge for her is with her age peers. A lot of kids here are advanced in some academic areas but may not be advanced (or may even be behind) in other areas, such as sports.

You probably aren't getting a lot of personal feedback because the answers often are highly location specific. Whether she can just take the extracurricular likely depends on local law in addition to the personalities of the specific teacher and principal involved. Where we live, if a homeschooler is involved in a extracurricular in one school, he or she cannot do a club sport at another. Coaches and teachers are also given wide latitude as to who they want on their teams, so long as the student meets the eligibility requirements of whatever organization runs the competitions.

I think what others are trying to warn you that if you minimize challenges in the short term in order to work toward a long term goal of scholarship funds, prestigious awards, or college admissions, there is a strong possibility that the act of minimizing those challenges may have consequences that could adversely impact those long term goals...

I think most on here would encourage you to focus on the kid you have now and ensuring that he or she is as happy and challenged as possible. (Keep in mind the phrase, "don't borrow worries/trouble" that may never come to pass.). As you are homeschooling, you can meet your child's academic needs. That is great! Whether she needs a higher grade number to compete in a music competition is something you have to answer locally. It does sound like she may have to choose between the club sport and this particular musical opportunity.

The potential awards related to a test such as the Explore are tricky if scholarship funding is essential to attend college or you see it as the only way to reach peers or other resources... For what it is worth, timing is worth considering too. For example, some gifted kids might actually score higher on the SAT as a 7th grader then they would as a 12th grader because intellectually they are more in tune with the math on the SAT (or other sections) at the earlier age, so putting it off doesn't help them. Another example, a friend of mine took the MCAT his first year as an undergraduate and did really well. He was happy to use those scores applying to medical school as a senior and said openly he may not have done as well putting it off until others traditionally take it, because he was closer to the material. (Or at least he may have had to study taking it later...)

For what it's worth, here are my two cents... She has been playing this instrument for 2 months. I would not change the academic and club sport situation that seems to be working well for what might just be a passing fancy. I would encourage her to continue with the instrument and revisit next year. If she loves the instrument enough to compete next year, then she will only be more competitive due to the practice time and you will know she is doing it because she wants to and not because it is new or she wants to please an authority figure. The coach should be just as happy to have her the next year. Also, highly competitive extracurricular activities require major time commitments from both the student and family, I am hesitant to commit to that time load without a clear passion from the student...

We did a grade skip while my daughter was in school and then undid it as we started homeschooling even though she is 2-3 years ahead in actual work. She won't go back to a regular school until high school and high school has a lot more flexibility when it comes to the classes where she can test out, AP classes, and dual enrollment. We intend for her to start dual enrollment with a local university in 10th grade.

Club sport competes by age, so that is unaffected. When she hits high school that changes.

She's extremely proud of a second place she got last year in one event, on one day, though.

I really am only concerned about her missing a cut off with say, a 7th grade SAT for xyz opportunity because she's actually a 6th grader by age.

I'm not worried about her winning ANYTHING, but we are running out of academic challenge and peer stuff locally, and I don't want opportunities, such as camps with entrance requirements to be off the table because of a paper placement.

Thanks!

I totally understand where you are coming from. DS10 is a young 5th grader who will be homeschooling next year. The school he is in now has recommended that we grade skip him and make him a homeschooled 7th grader next year. Like you, I knew that no matter his grade on paper, I could meet him with appropriate challenge. And like you, I wanted to make sure that he didn't lose valuable resources like camps, etc... because of the grade-skip. I reached out to the programs we were interested in and just asked. Since these are programs that cater to gifted kids, it was not an unusual question for them. Some have not responded yet but our most valuable resource (a program through Vanderbilt that we travel for since there is so little here) has assured us that he could participate at his grade-skipped level or he could participate at his age-grade level. Sometimes it's just worth asking.

One pitfalls I consider is that a lot of talent searches score by grade not age.

This is probably done because the enrichment activities are also grouped by grade. This favors red shirted kids but means that skipped kids will potentially competing with kids at least 2 years older. For competitive enrichment classes one needs to be sure that skipping will not hurt their performance relative to their grade peers thereby denying them access to activities that they would have more than amply qualified for if scored by age alone - that is, just left in their 'age grade'.

For a child on the cusp of that level of acheivement/LOG I probably would not skip.

Thank-you Gina and madeinuk. We haven't done the talent searches yet, and she is just getting old enough for some of the camps and programs that might meet her needs. We will not move forward with anything at this point that could potentially jeopardize putting those in place, because I really don't know how close to the cusp she is.

I totally get this. Our ds skipped 6th grade. He looked amazing on paper before. Now, he's still good, but not near the top. It's a tradeoff. For us, we were afraid of the consequences of keeping him in a grade that didn't challenge him. He was also a perfectionist. Skipping gave him the opportunity to work through all that. He still gets high grades in school, but doesn't test near the top anymore. It's okay. Part of it is developmental. We assume he'll catch up and then soar again.

Kudos to you for keeping track of each activity and whether the admission criteria is age-based or grade-based. Also be aware this can change over time. When the requirements (age/grade) look like your daughter's participation might not be allowed, you may wish to advocate for her inclusion. The only rule I've found to be inflexible was age 16 for medical/hospital based activities (shadowing, volunteering, programs). While many kids are high school juniors at age 16, some gifted kids may be matriculated college students at age 16.

When advocating for inclusion, sometimes simply posing the question may be enough to receive an affirmative response.

Other times, you may wish to sell the idea by stating what your daughter has done as preparatory work, her ability to work well with younger/older kids, and how she may need or benefit from the activity. Her preparatory work may be books she's read, experiments conducted (even ones found in books or online), research (even online research and compilation of links about a topic), related arts/crafts, puzzles, models she's built from scratch or from kits, inventions and "crazy" ideas, essays... anything to demonstrate interest and ability to focus on the topic. To make this type of advocacy an easy task, you may wish to maintain a dated list of her activities/interests, including a portfolio or scrapbook of pictures, and a reading list.

It is great if your daughter works with you on maintaining the reading list and taking pictures of things she's pleased with to add to her portfolio. At some point she can also write the brief advocacy essay, just a few sentences or a paragraph about her interest in the topic and ability to work well with younger/older kids.

That is a valid concern for not skipping. My DD skipped K and she took SCAT in 2nd grade (which is 4th grade level test at 6 yrs old). She did well but not 95 percentile like she might get if she takes it when she turns 7. When she took EXPLORE in 4th grade at 8, her percentile shot up to DYS level. She is in public school and without skipping, she will be extremely bored and who knows what would have happened. Right now, she is 10 (almost 11) in 6th grade and doing Algebra I and probably skipped some LA next year. She is engaged and challenged adequately.

And she will be counted as a 7th grader next year even though she will be doing Geometry and probably 8th or 9th grade LA.

It is hard to get 660 on SAT Math (DYS level) if you have not done Geometry. In Middle and High School, you don't need to stay in one grade level. Subject acceleration is easier because you go to a different class for each period. The only obstacle is when some classes are only offered in HS and you are still in MS.

Home Schooling gives you a lot of leeway. Try to balance between grade level and getting properly challenged. Good Luck!

I understand what you're saying about summer camps, etc.

This is an area where just what level of giftedness (LOG) you're dealing with helps to inform decision-making, often a lot.

We actually would have been much, much better off with DD being a Xth grader (placed in a +3 acceleration) a lot sooner, because camp and activity opportunities weren't appropriate at the lower (age-based) levels.

But that would have been quite different if she had been moderately gifted, I suspect.

We also weren't all that interested in talent search or DYS qualifying scores. I mean, as it happened, at 12 and 13, she had those kinds of scores, but they wouldn't have counted for many talent searches because she wasn't a 7th grader at the time, if that makes any sense-- she was a high school student.


I guess what I'm saying is, looking at the child you know and love-- the one that you have right now, in front of you-- and the one that you're at least 90% confident you'll have in a year or two-- what does that solution space look like for your family? Lots of things go into that. Personality, LOG, family SES, rural/urban home, geographical location, local programs (and who's running them!!), etc.

DD wanted desperately at 8yo to participate in the local uni's "G&T" summer camp offerings. She was at that time a 6th grader, doing extremely well in school, had test scores to back her inclusion in the program, etc. They refused, and wanted to place her by AGE instead-- which would have left her doing craftsy projects with MG 3rd-4th graders, and doing the kinds of things that she would have been engaged by when she was five and six years old. She was the right GRADE to get to do chemistry and rocketry lab experiences... but they wouldn't let her do it because of her chronological age. She was utterly disgusted, and signed up for a robotics camp instead-- which turned out to be a great experience (wider age range, and she was with students 4-6y older, but it was MUCH better, GT branding or not).

It was incredibly frustrating, that experience. Looking back, while they SAID that they placed by on-paper grade placement, clearly they didn't-- not really.


I guess what I'm saying is that it's a trade-off, and even when you think you're getting it right, you're still going to run into situations where it is bafflingly "wrong" for reasons that make no sense at all.

I agree with HowlerKarma. My kid really dislikes pretty much all camps that are age based. They are all far far too easy. So that would not factor into the situation for us. If doing the grade skip helped put my kid into a music program that was very much desired, we would do it.

The one kind of campy/class thing that has worked is when they allow grades 1-4 (for example) grouped together and then we do that in grade 1 or maybe 2. Then there is enough difficulty of material to be of interest. Art classes seem to be less age based in our area too.

I'm with HK and howdy on the issue with academic camps. We tried a "TAG" summer camp and it was a failure: there was one group for entering 3-5th graders and another for entering 6th-8th. She was going into 5th by age and I lobbied hard to let her into the higher level group. But despite having middle school level classes, they wouldn't budge and the week was wasted from a learning standpoint (she was literally doing labs that she's just done in her biology class in school). I did buttonhole the director on the final presentation day and let her know my issue. DD now has an exemption in her file that lets her take higher level classes (only barring any insurance issues, which a few locations or classes do have -- mostly medical ones).

On the other hand, DD looks forward to a completely non-academic summer camp every year and is happy to blend in with her age group and just relax and have fun. But they don't pretend to be teaching the kids anything except low ropes or how to canoe.

She does the totally non-academic-sing-bad songs, swim and get dirty camp every summer- and loves it, even though she's outside all the time at home.

There are no GT programs/ camps/ clubs/ schools within 2 hours+ of us.

She has asked for something academic in the future (says she likes her friends but want to find a tribe of math and science kids) I probably could narrow down a few of the most likely (affordable?) camps and see what the requirements are before I'm making decisions on the fly.

Thanks for all the great input.

The LOG thing is why I am such a fan of the IOWA Acceleration Scale because it sets a very high bar to jump.

In my DDs case, we felt that if she could clear that bar then we should proceed but if not we would not.

A key differentiator (no pun intended) with high LOG kids is their rate of learning. It isn't that they are just ahead, i.e, exposed to concepts earlier via a high SES home (we are anything but hoity toity) environment as much as the fact that they can absorb, learn and synthesize at a much faster pace at a much deeper and broader level too.

My DD started the 4th grade a year behind (zero experience) in Spanish and now she is at the top of that class, for instance.

As an aside, the asynchronous development of a child liek this can give you whiplash - my DD would finish her pre-Algebra homework and then go and watch Treasure Buddies (if there is another more puerile puppy based show I don't want to know about it).

One day my older son and younger son were sitting on the couch talking about square roots, exponents, and various other math topics (younger son in 4th grade) as any good geeky siblings do. And with a few well thought out questions from the younger and the back and forth discussion I went in and broke it up because it was apparent that if they continued they would just about cover all of 6th grade math and he had just skipped 3rd grade...had to put a stop to math conversations. My younger son just learned way too fast from casual conversations.