Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Aspergers?, ADHD? and gifted?

Completely agree with Suevv and Tigerle.

At age 4, my 2e/pg ds9 was in a special needs pre-k program due to a speech delay and physical/SPD issues until we pulled him and put him in a gifted school at age 5 and 6. Between 4-6, ds was misdiagnosed with Asperger's/PDD and ADHD. He was also in vision therapy and that presented a different picture to specialists too. It wasn't a fun time for us.

With some kids, including my son, the visual system seems to take longer to fully integrate, imo. So that can really muddy the waters and make a child appear to have ADHD.

Ds has been un/homeschooled for three years now and I've seen many improvements slowly over time. There's no magic bullets here, but at least with un/homeschooling a lot of the pressure is gone. It's a least-worst scenario for us.

With school, there are expectations and children are pegged against averages of neurotypicals. First, you've got behavioral, attentional, social, and group expectations. Then, there are tons of other expectations in terms of academic performance, which is pitched to a 'normal' developing child and not a pg one. It's a lot for little ones to navigate, especially when you've got asynchronous development or a 2e kid. If your child is a pg introvert, then it can be even worse and make them feel even more self-conscious and aware of their differences.

THANK YOU everyone for all of your advice. WOW. that helps tremendously...everything seems to make a little more sense now. I keep reminding my husband that we are in the throws of it right now... we are definitely in the trenches. Some days are great, some days are absolutely horrible. It is curious that he presents much like some HG and PG children. I might add that he just turned 4 in Oct also so he is just barely 4...we have a long road ahead of us it sounds like. Fortunately right now he is in a home school/unschooling montessori preschool environment with only a couple of kids of mixed ages and a teacher who believes in him...her twin 10 year olds are gifted and she recognizes the traits that she saw in her boys in him and hasn't seen these traits in any other children. I'm not sure exactly what area he is gifted in, I just know he is highly intelligent. He does like numbers but isn't really writing anything out yet. He figured out how to read before turning 4 but is still just reading short words. He does seem to gravitate towards geography and the world and his teacher said that the other day when he saw a map of the continents he correctly named them all with ease and he had only seen this map once before and that was 2 months ago. Stuff like that...and his memory and attention to detail are extremely advanced. He is very passionate about EVERYTHING. He talks like an adult with mannerisms and everything is a big deal with lots of excitement explaining things. I think this trait will serve him well one day, so that is encouraging to hear about the older kids doing well academically in classroom settings. I plan on keeping him in a montessori atmosphere for as long as we can, even into elementary school if possible...

I do plan on using the assessment as a tool and taking what they say with a grain of salt. Obviously some of these behaviors I feel he will grow out of. If anything, it may help us better understand what traits he has. You're right, he has little pieces of several different disorders. He is not a clear cut aspergers, or clear cut ADHD case etc. His verbal skills have always been advanced and he talked early. His teacher said she has been around kids with both and he doesn't quite fit them although she can see pieces of them at times...I don't want him to get labeled with something when he may in fact be HG or PG and this is his way of coping...but at the same time, I think a diagnosis used the right way may help us realize that there really is something different going on with him...help family understand that it's not our parenting...that is a huge stressor right now.

Did anybody else have difficulty getting family (grandparents, uncles/aunts etc) to understand your child? Did you get blamed a lot for doing something wrong as parents..comments like "you never acted this way as a kid" etc. It's easy for them to point the blame...saying we aren't tough enough with him etc. It's highly unfair and I am finding myself wanting to distance ourselves from them and not allowing them to visit. They commented last time that if he is this out of control they don't think we can come visit them. That is extremely sad for him (and DD) and I hate that they feel that way. When my son was acting particularly ASD...yelling loudly, jumping all around, not letting anyone talk my father said some pretty hurtful things which I know my son understands and I am pretty upset about. I don't think it's emotionally fair to surround him with such negativity but at the same time, don't want to deprive him from going to family functions. Did anybody deal with this, and if so have things gotten better over time with family understanding your child too?

That is interesting about being tired or hungry and the behaviors escalating. I have noticed this. He currently eats gluten free and dairy free because I have linked those to extremes of behavior...almost uncontrollable. If we keep those out of his diet it keeps things a little more under control. Not perfect, but better. He also eats all organic, no GMOs etc...He gets fish oil daily along with a probiotic. We also use an essential oil blend with remarkable results! It seems to mellow him out at preschool...his teacher has noticed a huge difference the days I put it on him....it has been a lifesaver. So all in all, I am hopeful. I think this info will help DH understand him a bit more. Day to day is HARD...I understand him much better than DH. He still feels like he should act and respond like a "normal" child which just doesn't work. It's hard not knowing what you are dealing with and why they act the way they do. I can see my son trying to do the right thing, or being misunderstood because he is doing something that looks like a huge mess that he should know better than to do...but he sees it as exploration and discovery.

Sounds like we are on the right track though...gotta take it day by day and focus on the good. Yesterday was a good day. He was calm, thoughtful and a delight...today may be completely opposite. He could melt down, kick and scream...hit at me etc. At least I know the good days exist and will cherish those and try to get through the bad ones. On the plus side, he always has some witty funny off the wall statement or question for us that is not typical of a 4 year old, so that can be entertaining. He intrigues me and is so complex, it's fun in a way...I just think we need to get past this preschool age so he can better express himself and mature a little bit.

LOL and I laughed at the comment "he will take out a baby who thinks about touching his stuff" because that is sooo my son as well. He can be kind and share things, especially with older kids...but he can also revert to 2 year old behavior and try to tackle a child who bothers him. But then later if that child were hurt he would feel bad for them and get them a band aid and think of all sorts of ways to comfort them. Seems like a disconnect there, but then again at least he does seem to show empathy at times.

My daughter is 10 and diagnosed with ASD (Asperger's). We just got the diagnosis this year. Oh how I wish that it had occurred to me or anyone else for that matter, that DD had autism when she was four. That time was so difficult for me. I thought maybe I would share some of the behaviors that she had at that age. Looking back, it seems clear that she did have autism, but many are still very uneducated about autism and its symptoms. I do a lot of self-blame regarding her delayed diagnosis. There are a lot of things that can be done as early intervention that will allow your son to enter school with minimal difficulty. Without them, you could be looking at years of OT, PT, speech therapy (for pragmatics) and other delays that will keep him from performing his best in school. I would not worry that your son could be wrongly diagnosed, there is a fairly high bar for diagnosis and a physician or psychologist trained in diagnosing ASDs should be able to differentiate his symptoms. I am not saying that kids aren't misdiagnosed, just that it probably doesn't happen that often. Trust your gut at this stage, if you are noticing symptoms, keep a journal and note how often they are happening. That will be extremely helpful to anyone working with your son. DD symptoms at 4:

1. Explosive tantrums (daily)
2. Inability to share or play in group setting, need to control play
3. What the daycare described as "eloping" from classroom when stressed or upset
4. Sensory issues with food, sound, touch (only eating a handful of foods, sensitivity to noise and loud places, not liking to be touched unless it was on her terms)
5. Hyperlexia, DD started talking at 5 months and could speak in full sentences by 12 months. She started reading sight words @ 2 and independently reading books at 3. Most consider this a splinter skill for spectrum kids, but DD is highly gifted fwiw.
6. Motor skill delays, both gross and fine motor. These delays trended throughout elementary school. Don't listen to those that tell you your child will grow out of it! They most likely won't without some assistance. Any speech, language, and motor skill delays will need therapy to correct.
7. Rigid, unyielding personality with inability to transition from activities. I know a lot of PG kids do this. However, this along with many other autism symptoms is a red flag. On its own, it is probably just a function of high IQ.
8. Narrow iterests and focus
9. Constantly interrupting or talking over others. Not necessarily a red flag if it happens only occasionally, but if it is all day, every day, then you can see a pattern of behavior.
10. Echolalia...I had no idea what this was until she was diagnosed. DD would memorize commercials, lines from her favorite movies and t.v. shows and repeat them ad nauseam. I was proud at first that she had such a good memory!
11. Ritually stacking or lining up objects during play. I would not be concerned if you see this once or twice, but consistently doing this is a symptom of autsim.

I would agree with those that said their child was happier and better adjusted after diagnosis. Teachers can be very judging, and some of the symptoms of autism can be interpreted as the behavior of a bratty child. Realizing that these behaviors stem from a disorder will help those around him understand and work to improve his behavior. I wish you luck on your journey!

My daughter had these behaviors from ages 4-6:

1. Explosive tantrums
2. Inability to share or play in group setting, need to control play
3."eloping" from classroom when stressed or upset
4. Sensory issues in the school setting -- sound, over-reaction to touch
5. Early fluent reading

7. Relatively Rigid, unyielding personality

School personnel consistently said Autism Spectrum, various medical professionals consistently said no.

Now at age 8, she has outgrown these issues completely as far as I'm concerned. This year she was given a 2 year grade skip, and she is not having any behavior problems, she is doing all her work, and WOW - she has even made friends! She does report being bored with school and wants to homeschool so she could go at her own pace and learn more... but at least for a few more years we'll keep her at school. She is happy with herself, and her words exactly: "I'm not normal, I'm awesome!"

Those difficult years aged me a lot... IMHO, I really don't think it's possible for anyone to make an accurate prognosis for a 4 year old. I also don't know if anything we did for her made a difference, or if she just "outgrew" the difficult phase. I just know it was really difficult.

Personally, I'd consider any dx given to a young child age under 8 to be provisional and think of it as a mean to get services paid by insurance.

My DD4 shares some of the traits too:

1. Explosive tantrums (though it is infrequent but when it happens, omg)
2. Inability to share with her parents, need to control play almost with everyone
4. Sensory issues with just about everything under age 3; limited to clothes and loud sound at the moment
5. Early reader although she can comprehend what she reads or else she won't read it
7. As she declared a few days ago, "I'm NEVER going to be flexible."
9. "I get to talk FIRST."
11. She used to line everything up and made patterns after patterns at age 2. She no longer does this.

Whenever I list these things down, I feel like I sounds like a mom who is in denial that her child is on the spectrum but honestly, anyone who spends a minute with her would know she is not autistic. I'm not sure if she has ADHD. It runs in my family but so far, although she can be impulsive, she is functioning well within school setting. I'd have to keep an eye out as she gets older and the demand for organizational skills increases.

OP, my DD had extreme sleep problems and everyone thought it was our fault for letting her stay up that late. I eventually stopped trying to explain why we can't have morning playdates or why I look so tired. I don't think most people can relate to what it is like to parent a child with "special" needs.

I'll also chime in and say that I have a child who was a very difficult toddler and preschooler who had some ASD traits. She was informally assessed twice for ASD during other assessments (gross motor delay and auditory processing disorder--she was not sufficiently dleayed for services in gross motor and we apparently were way off with APD suspicions) and both times the professionals said no way. But she is/was rigid, with meltdowns and sensory issues. Slow to play with other children and preferred older kids or adults as a toddler and preschooler. She never had perseverative interests of any kind, though. She too was extremely verbal very young.

Her social skills have improved gradually over the years and she is now a popular 5th grader who functions extremely well in a demanding school...however, she struggles with anxiety, anger issues, and depression.

I think that there are two camps of people: one that says you have ASD if you have ASD traits and one that says that you don't if you don't quite fit every characteristic because you are also gifted. Regardless of which position you take, please don't assume that your child will grow out of his or her issues. If he/she has issues that are affecting you or other people in your family, you need to find a way to improve the situation. Even if you don't accept an ASD diagnosis, find the resources that are available for ASD kids in your area. If your child needs help with social skills, find a social skills group. Your kid can be popular (mine is) even when there are underlying issues.

Totally agree. Addressing problems, giving the child strategies for managing their deal, is very helpful for the short and the long run.

I think this oversimplifies the situation a bit. Many people on this board have had professionals tell them their child has some ASD traits but is not ASD. I have some ASD traits (I have SPD) but I am very confident that I do not have ASD.

I definitely agree that it is unwise to assume any child will grow out of any issue and that issues in the family should be addressed. But I do think it is important to understand that diagnosing ASD and ADD can be difficult with some children. I don't know if the OP's child is in this category or not.

In some cases, a focus on finding a diagnosis for a gray-area child could be counterproductive. I have already spent money and time having my child assessed and finding nothing. I am weary of it and at this point I do not want to spend more money finding nothing because she is savvy and compensates well in a testing environment.

And I think, Ultra, that you've done a lot of strategic thinking about the issues that *are* clearly there, and ways to help her learn and grow and manage them. That seems like the most important thing.

(DH and I are probably each 1/2 to 3/4 of a case of ASD. Not diagnosable, but part of the "broader autism phenotype." I get it.)

A diagnosis is a tool-- as is a therapeutic strategy, a curriculum, and so on. The diagnostic tools we have are so imperfect, and yes, they don't always fit that well. Sometimes you just have to keep teaching skills, treating issues as you find them, and see what emerges.

What I don't consider a good approach is excusing behavior that's disruptive or disordered or distressing on the grounds that the child is gifted. We've BTDT, and it set us back for the long term. I'd rather see the challenges addressed than excused.