Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Reading Group Determined By Writing Ability?

Last year (2nd grade ) DD tested on Winter map in reading at 99% but because of a lack of challenging instruction and a bad testing environment ended the year at 92% with no growth.

This year (3rd grade) she tested in the fall at 96% (after reading over the summer and making full growth for last year) but in class was placed in the lowest reading group with a text several hundred Lexile below her NWEA assessed level because of "writing issues".

She is in a group with children who are barely fluent in English and most of the time is spent decoding text for them and explaining basic grammar. She feels she is learning nothing in the group and it's basically a repeat of work done in earlier grades.

The level is below her DRA from last year, below NWEA's recommendations, yet the teacher insists she is placed correctly.

Compared to her friends in her classroom she is a horrible writer. I have seen it myself. But at this stage in her development, she is not able to provide full analysis to the teacher's liking (and on the level of her friends) in order for the teacher to allow her to read at a higher level (even though they all read the same high level of books outside of school). DD is not a writer. And when she writes, she is a slow writer as well.

She is supposed to be in high ability reading this year but has not read anything in her class even at a 4th grade level due to the writing issues.

My impression of guided reading is that students are there to focus on the text and comprehension strategies of text and not focusing on writing. I see the 2 as completely different skillsets. Why should one's reading level be dependent upon writing skill? MAP does not test for this correlation.

Her teacher insists that DD's lower writing skills will not allow her to participate in the higher reading groups in a meaningful way. She refers to the students in the higher group as being able to complete the work at a "faster pace" than my DD could.

I would like advice on how to tackle this problem. DD has stated that she feels she is not "ready" to write. I feel this as well. She can hobble along but she generally detests writing. I feel it will take her some time to develop just as her father (he did not write well until 7th grade).

If there is no way out, I see basically another year wasted in class with no reading instruction taking place (DD helping out the Japanese kids who "can't read" according to her) a subsequent fall in MAP scores and another summer of playing catchup.

I would appreciate any advice on how to handle this problem as the teacher seems reticent to DD changing to a higher group until she is writing accordingly which I don't see happening for some time.

Personally, I would address the writing/analytic/critical thinking about the text and being able to write about it skills.

If the comprehension is there (and I would check this for myself with my child) then I would work on whatever the block was between comprehension and being able to articulate that understanding in written form.

Once comfortable that any gaps/blocks had been addressed and I was confident that she would be able to demonstrate the reqired mastery, I would go back to the
school and insist that the reassess her reading/writing skills.

If that didn't work I would scrimp and save to get private testing conducted and escalate with the school/school district to get things changed with objectively gathered evidence of mastery in hand.

If all the above hit walls I would find an online class for my kid and ignore whatever feedback the 'teacher' provided vis-a-vis progress in the classroom and move on...

YMMV

ditto mon. This is also how I have taught my #2 for many years: spelling at the lowest level, writing a level up, reading at a higher level, and read-aloud/scribe for all other subjects, so they could be at DC's reasoning level. Kids with dysgraphic/dyslexic profiles often need to have all of their academic subjects decoupled, even more than for the usual GT asynchrony.

It will be important to figure out if there is a 2e involved in your DC's situation.

This was DD's profile for many years, too. As far as we've been able to tell, her written expression isn't the result of anything in particular save her asynchronous development (well, okay-- possible connective tissue disorder limiting hand stability for WRITING).

Her writing is PROGRESSING nicely, but is still about on par with "about what the bright 18yo is capable of" which makes it appear to be an area of "weakness" relative to the rest of her profile as a student/individual. Her reading skills are well beyond that and have been more or less static for at least 4-5y.

Language arts was a nightmare during elementary, and even worse (if anything) during middle school.

The reading levels were years and years below her needs, and the writing level was... well, at times it was a complete struggle, and at the same time, the motivation to write didn't exist, either-- because, see, the reading selections weren't compelling or on-level for her.

It was maddening.

Keyboarding skills definitely helped. Additional afterschooling in reading helped. It was strategic on our part to frame Language Arts instruction as "writing" class. Because that was the purpose of that course.

So I want to reassure you that in an EG/PG child, it's possible that with keyboarding introduced into the picture, this is still just asynchronous development and not something 2e.

As time has gone on, the gap has closed as literacy skills become about other ideas, and not about "reading" or "writing" in particular.

ita with mon!

polarbear

So, if a kid had two broken arms would she send them back to pre-school? The teacher's reasoning/method is distorted; defying the school's placement tools? In addition to above suggestions, I would want to have an informal discussion with the special education coordinator at the school. That would at least establish the texture of things at the school to know where your fight lies.

DS8 has the same profile, but our school and teachers have consistently worked to remove barriers. Almost too much, in that we are now trying to get help for his handwriting.

By all means try out the suggestions above but I'd add that reading progresses via practice. As long as your daughter is reading appropriate amounts and at interesting levels outside school then I wouldn't worry as much about the year being wasted from a learning perspective with reading. I especially wouldn't get caught up in agonizing over lexile scores and 90+% RIT percentiles.

I accidentally erased a longer reply, so this will be quick, but my bottom line was that you need to have her tested for an expressive language disorder. My son had some fine motor issues, but learning to type (which he did) wouldn't have solved his writing issues. He needed a lot of specialized help, but putting him in a low reading group would have just made him feel awful, be bored, and lose interest. He had an IEP from 3rd grade (when it was diagnosed) through 7th, for speech and expressive language (he had one previously, but not for expressive language) and although his writing has improved, it has never reached the level of his reading. This summer, as he was doing the summer work for his freshman honors English and AP World History classes, it was painful to watch him writing (soooo slow, and at times really struggling to make his point), BUT - even if he struggles a bit with the writing aspect, I know he is in the right level classes. This is a kid who already has a 34 in ACT reading, so I know he can do it, he just can't always express it. He would be bored out of his mind in a regular-level history or English.
I think it's ridiculous for the teacher to place her in a reading group based on her writing. If this is something your school will do going forward, I'd definitely look into testing her for expressive language issues or fine motor issues, and I'd also look into out-of-level testing so you can show just how advanced she is with reading and advocate for her to be put into a group at the right level.
BTW, my son was always, always in the highest reading group/gifted classes, and his writing didn't hinder guided reading in any way - if there was group writing, he wasn't usually chosen to do it :)- but he did just fine.

Thank you everyone for your replies. My DH and I have differing opinions on the writing issue. He feels it is not as big of a deal as I feel it is. I notice all the time that DD has alot of misspellings of common sight words when she is writing. She does make sentences but it's the forgetfulness of spelling, capitalization, punctuation at this age level that bothers me. When she writes fast it gets worse. We go over it again and again yet she always forgets. Overall, she can make sentences and write paragraphs but without seeing the level of the class, I can't tell if she is doing that great. Her thoughts make sense to me when we talk about texts. I have always felt she understands what's going on. I was glad to see she did meet her growth targets after summer (even though she couldn't get above the score she had before).

However, my greater concern when we brought the issue up to DD's teacher is her latest response:

In high ability classrooms, we don’t just work on a vertical jump in reading, but focusing on reading at a deeper level. So, while we might be reading a novel that is a little lower than our current reading level, we are working on discussing and questioning at a higher, deeper level

This sends up a red flag for me as we had the "deeper understanding" talk with DD's last teacher when she said she wouldn't be able to do division and DD had to stay on low math.

She also says little lower. The novel is 4 levels lower than DD's ability level. Whoever heard of reading at a significantly lower level in order to gain a better understanding? DD says the questions are all easy (like Master of None stated - like what are the character's names, where are they at, etc. - low level). DD said there was no difficult discussion and she is not learning anything. One boy in the group doesn't even speak English that well. There can't be any difficult discussion with him there. Also, she admits the book is below DD's level but says she is committed to the text until November.

How can she say DD is reading at a higher level and she has placed her at a higher level, but at this time she needs to be in the lowest reading group to gain "deeper understanding"? And that is her answer to providing high ability services? I'm very frustrated.

I would try the approach that you are concerned that, while YES, there is a significant gap between your DD's reading and writing skill set-- if she is trying to WRITE at her readiness level about literature that far below her readiness level in reading--

she may not be motivated to improve her writing skills as a means of communicating her ideas about what she is reading.

If nothing else, pushing the writing demands up a bit may force identification of a problem sooner, and in any event, it will send the message to your child that writing IS for communication of authentic ideas, not just regurgitation of comprehension at a basic level.

I don't know but I know what it feels like to do maths witha group about 10 levels below you. It is stressful and I was an adult being paid to be there.

I think I would try and get testing and independant comprehension testing. If you have proof their is comprehension just not writing it would be easier to argue. If you have proof of comprehension and a 2e diagnosis then she should get accomodations.

Unfortunately it sounds like normal craziness in schools.

I can't really help but I can tell you that your daughter isn't alone. I am going through this with my son in High School. His reading ability is very high but his current writing level has forced him out of the honors classes. He is very frustrated at the books they are reading in his current English Class, and by the level of discussions in the class.

What I am currently doing is getting him a tutor to work on his writing, and we are hoping to get a few accommodations out of the school based on the testing we had done this summer.

I used to help my son's teacher when they had reading groups. This was in 1 grade (may be 3 grade is different), but they did not write anything during that time. They read aloud, talked, discussed the book, answered questions, but writing was done at home.
However, when the teacher did reading assessment, there was some brief writing involved. So, if your DD now is, for instance, at level 28, this means she passed the test at this level, right? Then she was able to write whatever she was supposed to write at this level, or the assessment differs at your school?.

We actually did try this in our second e-mail with the teacher stating how the low level could be exacerbating the problem to which she responded that at this time she is committed to the book and will not re-evaluate until mid-November.

I am embarrassed to say but the book is "See You Later, Alligator" in the Time Warp Trio series. It's been listed as a gifted reader book for 5 and 6 year olds and the class is spending 5 WEEKS on it. It's exactly like Magic Treehouse which DD read long ago. At home she just finished Harry Potter #4 and wants me to get back to the library for #5 this week. And this is for "high ability" reading.

Porosenok96 - Yes, they use DRA2 for assessment and the teacher has her at level 40 (level R). I have always been somewhat skeptical of this assessment because of it's subjectivity and how it never aligns with MAP. The group that is actually reading the book DD wants to read is at DRA 50. This book is DD's lexile level (hence her interest)but I am still investigating what DRA50 involves. Her MAP Lexile is 771-921. Most R books are in the 600's and low 700's. I know there has been discussion of the usefulness of Lexiles but I still like to see them and the related books.

I have thought about asking to sit in on the reading group to verify DD's statement that it is incredibly easy and filled with language-challenged readers (while the teacher says there are no problems in her e-mail to us). But this may be a nuclear option for the rest of the year. Typically I have found when a parent verifies what's happening, the teacher has found it more difficult to "wobble" as DH calls it.

We have conferences coming up in a few weeks and maybe it's best to wait until a face to face to really drive the message home. Perhaps finding out the DRA50 level and what it involves may be more of a bargaining point?

I would go for testing but DH does not want to. He feels it is not an issue and is wanting to wait until the next book choice to see if she makes an improvement.

My DS is also in third grade. He is also being penalized for handwriting via both a penmanship grade AND his papers being marked down when they are illegible. I feel he's being penalized twice and intend to speak to the teacher about it at conferences. When he writes by hand, he does exactly what you mentioned your DD doing.


Last year, it wasn't a problem but with his move to an HG class and third grade, the writing requirements have increased significantly. When he writes on the computer, it's no problem. I know because I just enjoyed a weekend of watching him write a seven page (double-spaced, 14 pt font) paper wherein he expressed his ideas clearly and self-corrected his punctuation, grammar, capitalization, and spelling. His fav thing right now is spell and grammar check; he will deliberately misspell something just so he can correct it. ;-)

So this child, who can clearly write, can NOT clearly write by hand. Even I struggle to read his handwriting sometimes and he has to focus to make it neat. We are waiting on the school psychologist to get back to me as I want to have him evaluated.

Sadly, I have no advice on how to talk to the teacher as I am terrible at advocating. We are fortunate to be in a school district where they identify and support gifted students; without that, I would definitely have to have him tested outside and then have some kind of accommodations written.

Must be See You Later, Gladiator, right? I don't think this book is so bad for third grade. It isn't high-level reading, but I have read the series and would say they're a bit more sophisticated than Magic Treehouse in approach and vocab. It's not vastly far off of your child's tested reading level if that is in the 700s. My opinions may be unpopular, but I'm not sure I'd fight this one to the death if you see other language-based weaknesses. Now, if there are really kids in her group who can't read that's anothe rmatter, but if they literally cannot read they shouldn't be in a group with this book, which is on or slightly above grade level for third. (As I say, I remember the series and it's sophisticated in a way that MTH is not.)

According to this chart
http://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/
level 40 corresponds to the beginning of 4 grade. How is it possible for non-English speaking students to be on a such high level (unless your teacher doesn't follow her assessments and assigns levels by some different criteria)? If these kids actually passed the test at level 40, there is no way they can barely read, they must be advanced readers for their age/grade.
Did your DD actually pass the DRA test for level 50, or she just wants to be there because books are more interesting?

I agree with your DH - teacher definitely will not be happy. But you can ask the teacher to show you your DD's latest DRA test, and you don't have to wait until the conference. Did they have DRA testing this school year, or the teacher uses results from the end of the last year?

I'm going to look at this from a little bit of a different direction - rather than focusing on the reading level, I'm curious about her writing.


It sounds like they are working on analysis of text rather than just reading comprehension in the reading groups in this class, and the students are expected to illustrate their knowledge through writing. If the challenge with writing is limited to handwriting ability, I'd request that your dd be allowed to keyboard and then see if there is an improvement noted by the teacher, and if so, allow her to move up to a group that's an overall better fit. OTOH, if the challenge is with getting her thoughts out in writing (expression, not handwriting), then I'd listen and think through the teacher's point of view on her placement. It's quite possible she's placed where she needs to be based on writing - and that *might* be an appropriate way to place her based on what the classroom/curriculum goal is.


Even though she's in the "lowest" group in the classroom, she's in a gifted classroom (I think). I'd try not to think of "lowest" as horribly low, it's just a lower group relative to a classroom full of high ability students.


I have a tough time making sense of this, given the DRA level of "See You Later Gladiator". I would definitely want to observe and see if this is true - if it is, then you need to advocate for a change for your dd. I'd be careful about one thing though - it's possible that the ESL students (English as Second Language) may need to ask some questions for clarification of words or grammar - but at the same time they might be able to fully comprehend and provide analysis at the same level as your dd is. I'd try to avoid focusing on the ESL kids unless you observe and see the entire reading discussion is spent on low-level help. If it's just asking a question here or there about a word meaning, I'd try to help my dd see it in a positive light - the teacher is helping those students access their curriculum. Not knowing an English word doesn't necessarily mean they are at a lower-level reading ability. This is in some ways, exactly what you are hoping the teacher will do for your dd - not hold her back in her reading group because of her challenges with expressing herself in writing.


I'd talk to the teacher to clarify what the learning objective really is, and then share that with your dd and between the two of you talk through how your dd thinks she's already mastered that objective, what work can she show that illustrates mastery etc. Then have a conversation between the three of you (you, dd, teacher) to discuss whether or not it's really all a repeat for dd and should she move up.


Reading and writing are going to become more and more intertwined as your child progresses in school. Although they may seem like two totally unrelated skills, they are, in fact closely integrated throughout many subjects in school. Not just language arts, but science, social studies, etc - students are asked to listen to lectures, watch videos, read books/etc and then relate what they understand and what they've learned through writing. If your dd has a relative weakness in written expression this is a *really* good time in her school career to be working on it - and that might mean focusing on text that is easier than she is capable of reading in order to simplify the writing process to the level she's working at. Throwing her into an advanced reading group where she can't keep up with the writing isn't going to help develop her writing skills. OTOH, she is also not going to (in real life) lose any of her word decoding skills etc - so she's not going to be moving backwards in the level of books she's capable of reading for pleasure. What I've seen with my children (irregardless of level of giftedness, and once they are past the basic step of learning how to recognize letters/words), is that reading makes them better readers - as long as they are reading they are improving their skills. So if she's reading lower level books during class, but she's still reading challenging books for fun, she's going to progress.


Since this is what your teacher has observed, rather than approaching this in a confrontational way and pushing for the higher level reading group, I'd ask the teachers for specific ways you can help work with your dd to improve her writing skills. Ask what her goals are re writing, and what will enable your dd to catch up enough to be moved to the upper level reading groups.


I'd probably delve into this more with dd - why doesn't she feel "ready" to write? Do you have any ideas what's holding her back? Have you tried letting her keyboard and does that make writing easier for her? Is she able to answer questions verbally that she can't with writing? I might ask the teacher to have your dd give oral responses rather than written in her reading group for a few class periods just to see if her answers are noticeably more in-depth and improved. I really do think this is an important piece of data - it will help you understand if it's handwriting that's holding her back or if it's how to organize thoughts/etc relative to the types of questions being asked about the books. If it's handwriting, give her a keyboard and request that she be moved up. If it's organizing/generating thoughts etc - work on that and leave her where she is for now until you see she's truly ready to move up.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I completely agree with what polarbear has said here. DS8 has to write sentences about his MATH problems. It's no longer acceptable to just solve the problem; the child must also explain WHY their answer is reasonable or correct.

If she's got handwriting issues or difficulties with grammar and writing, now is the perfect time to get that help she needs.

I am going to go under the assumption that her writing issues are analytical writing rather than handwriting. (It can get very confusing, I find a lot of people confuse the two.) I disagree with your husband. I think if she is struggling with this task now, you should look into it and talk with the teacher and address the issue sooner than later.

My DS15 has just been diagnosed with written language expressive problems and anxiety when writing. He will completely freeze and write NOTHING for an essay. This is a HUGE problem in High School. We didn't really notice anything till 6th grade and in hindsight this was one of the big issues then. He was an early reader and still reads years grades above grade level. He does well on the tests on the books but will write nothing for the essays, and well writing is 60% of the grade. This is somewhat anxiety and somewhat not enough time and somewhat apathy at this point. He often just doesn't have opinions because he thinks the whole question is just stupid.

So my advice is to look into this now and don't wait until she gets older. Your daughter probably doesn't have the same situation as my son but as I've found on this board is not unusual for gifted kids reading level and expressive writing level to be out of sync. Analyzing is a book is a very different skill than re-telling and answering questions about the plot.

As to what your daughter teacher said: "In high ability classrooms, we don’t just work on a vertical jump in reading, but focusing on reading at a deeper level. So, while we might be reading a novel that is a little lower than our current reading level, we are working on discussing and questioning at a higher, deeper level" This sounds totally reasonable to me. My older daughter had a Language Processing LD and really struggled with both reading & writing so I have worked with this issue before. (I just never saw it in my son because when he writes so much better than her when he has an opinion.) One thing I learned from the people who were helping my daughter is that when working on critical analysis and writing they it is best to not be simultaneously working on stretching their reading skills. They want the reading to be comfortable. The problem is having the reading level comfortable and interesting to talk about.

While I can imagine your daughter is probably bored at taking 6 weeks to read a Time Warp Trio book. It may not be the wrong reading level for teaching this task. They are a harder reading level than Magic Tree House books. I will always have a soft spot for this series as we have a connection to one of the illustrators for the series but I'm not sure these books are the best for this task. The gifted son my class was in 4th-6th had a reading assignment that I quickly realized couldn't be done with a lot of the more "popular" early readers. Because a lot of those books aren't really good literature with complex plot structure and character growth. We found it best to chose books of the Newbery medal list. I can't imagine analyzing a Time Warp Trio book like it was The Grapes of Wrath. Perhaps you should ask the teacher why she choose this particular book?

Which is a bit silly because there are well established mathmatical protocols for explaining how and why you did something. They don't include writing sentence and paragraphs.

Preaching to the choir, my friend. DS8 had a test problem last year that amounted to "Which of the following numbers is an even number and why?"

DS:
"14, because it is an even number."

The "correct" answer:
"14, because the four in the ones place is an even number."

You can't even make up this stuff. I had to ask why the correct answer was acceptable but his was not, and it was all about knowing that four was an even number.

We're mathy peeps and DS does it in his head, so it is particularly annoying to him to have to write a sentence explaining stuff he just knows. Also annoying: timed math facts; deadly slow processing speed (21%) makes that a whole other nightmare. Thank heavens this year's teacher doesn't do that!

ITA with polarbear.

I finally looked up what "ITA" means. ITA also with polarbear. Polarbear - what awesome, sensible advice!