Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Questioning the need for pre-algebra; thoughts?

DD9 is going to be starting 6th grade in ten days. Her new school seems flexible, and I'm hoping to get her into an algebra placement.

I've already actually done a lot of algebra with her (3 chapters of a rigorous text before the spelling bee took over), and my stuff is likely to be more rigorous than what the school uses. They use Khan Academy instruction and a teacher; I use an older algebra book (Brown & Dolciani) supplemented with ideas from Wu's Common Core book for teachers. We go over the stuff the teachers do when we use that book: proofs involving variables, that sort of thing.

I'm not convinced that pre-algebra is a good option for a HG+ child with math talent. I've looked at pre-algebra books and curricula (starting in 9th grade when my friends were enrolled in it), and the course has always struck me as being algebra-lite, with repetition of the same stuff in algebra 1.

Does anyone have

1) thoughts on ideas about the suitability of skipping pre-algebra
2) thoughts on how best to advocate?

Thanks.

I agree that pre-algebra is an unnecessary step. In my school district you can test out of the class. If it's a good step for your daughter it's hard for me to tell. I don't remember does your DD goes to a private school or public school? Is Algebra already taught at her school? If she is already scheduled to take pre-Algebra at 9 yrs then the probably have an idea already that she is HG and it might just take talking to them about her best placement.

1) My #1 did not take a pre-algebra course at all, going directly from 3/4 year of 7th grade math to algebra I (Pearson/Prentice Hall Common Core). (Moved from 6th to 7th grade math mid-year.) I, OTOH, seem to recall that I did a year of semi-independent pre-algebra, and then skipped algebra I altogether, to go to alg II/trig. I have the impression that none of my siblings took an actual alg I class, either. From which N=tiny, I conclude that a reasonably math-minded individual can pick up enough alg I from either pre-algebra or alg I to successfully transition into trigonometry & geometry.

2) Does the school have end-of-course assessments for pre-algebra and algebra I? Unit/chapter tests for same? Perhaps you could request that they do some placement testing using their own curriculum.

What with all the algebra concepts filtering down even to the kindergarten level these days, it's past time for people to start questioning the necessity of pre-algebra. Back in the day, it functioned as the first introduction to the concept of symbolic substitution, rather than always numbers. That's a difficult conceptual leap for most students.

It would probably be better for a great many students if we just taught them from the beginning that numbers are also just symbols, but whatever.

Hi Val,

I think the need/decision to take/skip Pre-Algebra is really curriculum/school district dependent. So much of elementary school math circles around and repeats itself these days that it drives me nuts And my kids nuts too But after having looked at how to subject-accelerate two of my kids now in math, I've found that you really just have to look at what is offered/taught on a case-by-case basis. My ds, for instance, jumped into and had to take Pre-Algebra, and that was ok - he didn't repeat anything substantial at all the in his Algebra course. Now that I'm looking at my dd's situation, every single darned piece of course curricula I've looked at from 5th grade "normal" level through Algebra looks almost the same - it's nuts!

Soooo.. I'm no help at all re whether or not to skip Pre-Algebra. In your case, if I were you, I'd trust my gut feeling because you've worked closely with your dd and you're familiar with the curriculum at the school she's going into (I think - don't you have an older child that went there?)

How would you advocate for it? Use anything and everything you have that shows what she's already mastered in math. There is also an "Algebra Readiness" test that I think is widely available in most school districts, so you could request she take that - or you could request that the school pre-test her on the Pre-Algebra topics. If you've looked over the curriculum and the topics really do look similar between each course, I think she'll be a-ok with skipping. You can always provide support at home when she hits something she missed by not taking Pre-Algebra.

Best wishes,

polarbear

It should be fine to skip prealg. You, Val, just need to monitor and detect if your DD9 is not undestanding something as well as you'd like, and work to strengthen that. You can also look at a list of typical prealg topics and quiz her to make sure she's got it all.

I didn't go through the US system, so I'm only now getting familiar with what's in these courses. I find it interesting when people say you can skip prealgebra or precalculus, or they say they didn't have such classes when they were in school. But somehow AoPS finds enough content to write a 608 page prealgebra book and a 528 page precalculus book (and to slip an algebra 3 class in between alg 2 and precalculus). Perhaps AoPS courses are a mile wide and a mile deep, while some school courses are an inch wide and an inch deep.

My DD10 (entering 6th) is skipping pre-algebra, too. But she had to take Grade 7, 8 and Algebra readiness tests to show them her mastery of pre-algebra. Algebra 1 is HS credit course and they wanted evidence that the student complete regular 8th grade level Math before allowing Algebra 1.

I would guess that California or the school will have similar conditions prior to allowing the student to skip (especially to HS credit course).

Thanks for the replies. They're all helpful.

Yes, they're going to test her. I've been looking at algebra readiness tests and will have my DD try one later. I suspect that this school is the kind of place that will let her move ahead if she does well on the test. The problem will be to try to anticipate what they're going to ask. I can't really do that, so I suspect we'll just spend a hour-ish a day practicing this stuff next week. I don't want to see her placed in a class that's too easy for her (which will, in turn, make algebra mostly too easy) because she misses ten questions on material she forgot over the summer and could re-learn in 20 minutes.


I think that a lot of schools have come to see pre-algebra as a prerequisite to algebra 1. There also seems to be a significant fear of "learning gaps." I find all this to be unfortunate for the giftie crowd. I suspect that moving slowly and filling gaps is important for many kids. However, IMO, gifted kids can thrive when they have gaps that they have to fill (because they finally encounter something requiring that they learn new things and then assemble ideas).

Not sure, what it implies, but I couldn't wrap my head around exactly what pre-algebra is. I found this document at the Santa Fe Schools website that gives a neat alignment to common core with degrees of emphasis per subject area.

http://www.sfps.info/documentcenter/view/6764

Looking through, I'd have more concern with translating terminology than mathematical basis. Things like "constant of proportionality" or "decimal expansion" that are represented by other terms in older texts. I also notice some geometry concepts like congruence that were introduced after algebra when I was in school.

DD did pre-algebra as independent study over the summer prior to enrollment in algebra as a 7th grader. She's never had any trouble at all, and believe me, we definitely treated the material rather desultorily during that summer; I basically had her run through the homework helper end-of-chapter tests on Pearson's website, and she got 90% or better on all of them, so I called that good.

You could have your DD take the AoPS Algebra I diagnostic for a quick check. I'm sure it's more difficult than what the schools would offer. They also have prealgebra vidoes you can look at to see if there's anything you think she needs to review first.

Alcumus prealgebra would also probably be tougher than what schools would expect.

I like that AoPS test; thanks! The questions are similar to what I've been seeing, but a bit harder and more focused.

The suitability of skipping Pre-algebra is heavily dependent on your school's curriculum and teacher. I would not let my kids skip any course from Pre-Algebra on up but the scale may in fact tilt the other way at your DD's school. For DS, the Pre-Algebra course established a strong foundation in Geometry and Trigonometry, his relatively weaker areas since he is not a visual spatial kid. Even though elementary algebra and elementary geometry are incorporated starting with 1st grade, it was reassuring to see that DS can handle real Geometry and Trigonometry. On the other hand, it may be characterized as Geometry-lite and Trigonometry-lite and arguably will be repeated later in Geometry and Trigonometry. So it comes down to your philosophy - do you think that it is beneficial or harmful for kids to see/practice concepts that they have already seen in a previous course. I tend to answer somewhat beneficial for my own kids, who often learn too fast and may sometimes run the risk of forgetting concepts/procedures that they covered in a flash.

By the way, I had DS take the AOPS Are You Ready? test for Algebra. The results showed that DS was ready although we ultimately elected to only accelerate to Pre-Algebra for a number of other reasons including the Geometry/spatial issues.

On the other hand, I question the vigor of a course that uses Khan Academy as instruction unless the teacher will develop/introduce her own instructional material as well. While I think Khan Academy is wonderful as a supplement and it's free, it is gear toward the "every man" and not gear toward gifted at all. If the Pre-Algebra course is low level and only cover "algebra-lite" topics (as indicated by some of the other posters' curriculum) or your DD is strong with visual spatial tasks, then it may make sense to skip Pre-algebra.

Since this is a new school, the best way to advocate is to have her ace their readiness and end of course tests. I would provide outside testing only if you think that it is necessary to unlock the door to their readiness and end of course tests.

Yes, this is exactly my problem with it. KA is their primary teaching source, with the teacher supplementing when kids have questions.

I go for rigor at home and teach a lot of conceptual stuff. Khan (and ALEKS, which my son got stuck with last year) are pretty straightforward. If she was going to a school that used AoPS-like pre-algebra, I don't think I'd be leaning this way. But given the options, skipping algebra-lite with a lot of supplementation from me seems best.