Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional What to ask for?

apm221, our 2e ds' situation was different (in terms of challenges and needs), but we were able to successfully advocate for an IEP in elementary school in spite of his high ability and achievement levels, at a school where we received a *lot* of pushback. Here are a few tips based on our experience - they aren't in any particular order, and I don't know that any of them will be helpful for your situation, but fwiw - here they are!

1) I'll second the suggestion of finding a local advocate if you can. Sometimes you are able to find an advocate at no cost - look on the yellow pages at wrightslaw.org to see if there are any groups listed in your state. Even if there isn't a contact # listed for your area/city - if there is a group in your state call them and ask what resources are available locally, or ask if they can help from a distance.

2) It helped us tremendously to have a private diagnosis report stating needs that could be related to classroom/academics. I realize you don't have that yet, but maybe you can think outside the box a bit - would your pediatrician, for instance, be willing to write a letter explaining the impact of your ds' challenges in the classroom?

3) Does your ds have any similar challenges at home or in other group settings? Although it doesn't seem to relate directly to school, it's additional evidence. On one hand, it might simply be illustrating that he always deals with "x" when placed in a situation that "y" occurs (as opposed to his classroom behavior being viewed by the school as oppositional, purposeful, unmotivated etc), or otoh, it might illustrate that he reacts in way "y" when faced with boredom or frustration or lack of challenge - i.e., it's simply more evidence that when placed in a situation that (fill in the blank) occurs, your ds will react with (fill in the blank).

4) The school staff told us over and over again "there is nothing we can do". But there are things they can do - that "nothing we can do" statement means something else - either "we don't see a problem" or "we see a problem but don't understand it" or "we see a problem, we understand it, but we aren't going to do anything about it" are just a few of the most-likely things behind the statement. No matter which meaning is behind it, the way to approach it is the same - arm yourself with knowledge of *what* is behind the behavior (as much as you can), and *you* put together a list of what could be done to help in the classroom and to help him develop life/coping skills. This may sound intimidating or difficult - but it doesn't have to be. Think through the situations you've described to us, write them down, and then brainstorm a solution that you think will work. That's your starting point. Then look at your state's education website - is there any documentation there stating "typical accommodations" (most likely under the SPED section, possibly in a handbook). Might not exist in all states, but it's there in the state I live in. See if any of the "typical" accommodations match ideas you have - if they do, these will be the accommodations that will be (eventually) easy to get. That doesn't mean you don't ask for the other accommodations/remediation/etc your ds needs - but by knowing what is typical you can see if those are thrown out in a meeting to appease you, and if they are, you say "that's a good idea, now let's review these additional needs". When they say "that's not something we've ever done for other students" or whatever, remind the team that you are not meeting to discuss other students' needs, you are meeting to discuss the unique and individual needs of your ds.

5) Don't ever forget the phrase "Free Appropriate Public Education" - you are seeking access to FAPE for your ds. Remind the school staff of that when they stone-wall you.

6) There is a letter that specifically addresses the issue of whether or not IDEA applies to children who are considered "gifted" - I think it's called the Lillie Felton letter - but may not quite have the name correct. You can find it on the wrightslaw website (or if HK is lurking in this thread, I think she has a link - I'm pretty sure I've seen her mention it a few times here :)).

7) Our ds had high IQ and achievement scores (in his case, the achievement scores didn't match IQ across the board due to his disability, but they were still higher than what they needed to be to qualify based on low achievement scores per official school district policy). What did help was having one key test that he clearly didn't perform well on, and it also helped to be able to show the not-so-obvious ways in which his disability subtly impacted the IQ testing and the relationship of IQ to achievement tests. I don't know what that test or report will be for your ds, but try to figure out what specifically might be challenging him and see if you can't get testing or a behavioral survey or whatever that will capture it. An updated eval by your SLP which includes the CELF mentioned above might be a good place to start.

8) You mentioned difficulty with open-ended questions - this may not apply at all to your ds, but fwiw my ds struggled tremendously with this, and the test that captured it for him was the TOWL - there is a part of the TOWL which requires the student to look at a picture and write about it. Write anything at all - and my ds who couldn't answer open-ended questions also couldn't write enough words for his test to be scored. That was, for him, the test result that the school simply couldn't argue with. They *did* try to administer it to him twice and had the same result. They didn't believe that it was due to an actual challenge but thought he was being obstinate, so they picked another portion of another test (a subtest of the PAL) to try to test the same type of challenge but without having to write from an open-ended picture prompt, and once again, he scored very very low.

9) I found that for my 2e kids (I also have a younger dd with a second e) - the WJ-III Test of Cognitive Abilities was more helpful in capturing the degree of a discrepancy when it was a very narrow area of challenge. My ds has an obvious discrepancy that jumps out on the WISC (relatively low PSI subtests), but my dd does not. On the WJ-III, my ds' challenge jumped out as even more obvious (higher ceilings for areas of strength, and one specific subtest that caught the challenge, and on the WJ-III it showed up as a lower percentile (significantly lower) than it did on the WISC. My dd had the WJ-III before the WISC testing, and on her WJ-III there was, again, one single subtest that had a significantly lower score than the others, and it was something that the tester was then able to verify was an issue. It impacts her ability to read, and when she was later evaluated by a reading specialist, most of the testing she had (which would also be the type of testing she received at school) showed up average or above average, but a few specific subtests buried inside of other reading specialist tests showed the same discrepancy (same cause). Later on our dd had the WISC administered and nothing showed up as a discrepancy (at all) on the WISC - there just isn't a subset that grabs that particular ability clearly.

10) My ds' 2nd "e" didn't really appear as anything other than behavioral issues during K-2nd grade - but it was, in fact, an actual challenge that was directly impacting his ability to do his schoolwork. Your ds may simply be bored, or he might have some type of challenge that is making it difficult for him to cope in the classroom. I really *really* wish we had understood his challenges better when he was younger (he was diagnosed at the end of 2nd grade), and truthfully the pieces were there to hint strongly that there was a challenge, but it simply took time and real-world experiences to understand what was happening. It also took a lot of observing, trying things out, and re-thinking things as the elementary school years went by. He was ultimately diagnosed with a second "second e" in later elementary - but we had to get through finding and accommodating for the first e before he could demonstrate enough of his knowledge for us to realize there was still another "e" lurking. You'll also most likely find that during the next few years, as your ds matures, he will start to be able to share with you connections between how he feels and what's going on with school, classroom, etc - and that will help you too in putting together the puzzle pieces.

11) You've heard from the schools "there is nothing preventing him from doing grade appropriate work (evidenced by his high scores on standardized testing)." When this statement comes up, just ignore if you can the comment about "grade level work" and refocus the conversation back on the specific challenges that are preventing him from "COMMUNICATING HIS KNOWLEDGE". Sorry for the caps! - but it's a very important distinction. The school might not be required to educate him beyond their grade-level curriculum, but they are required to allow him to communicate his knowledge.

Last thing - you mentioned "both public and charter schools" - just a small detail, but in most areas, "charter" schools *are* public schools that receive Federal and State funding, so they are covered by the same legal requirements under IDEA and ADAA as your neighborhood public school is.

I hope some of that helps - sorry it's so long! I suspect if we were sitting down together I would have another 9 million things to suggest - some of it not terribly encouraging. It took us several years to get an IEP for ds, and ultimately once we had the IEP it was "weak" and we had to rely on private therapy/tutoring/etc to truly remediate. I hope you'll have better luck in getting what you need for your ds through school.

Best wishes,

polarbear

This is all so helpful - thank you! I am writing down these ideas so I can look up the resources and think through how to implement them.

My son's psychologist has suggested sending some checklists for the teacher because that might help to identify the exact problems in the classroom. We don't see the same things at home, but obviously he doesn't face the same challenges at home.

I will look over the suggested resources. I have tried asking around to see what other kids get and have been told that some schools do offer social skills groups for kids with ASDs. My son (as aeh mentioned) scores under ASD cutoffs but still elevated relative to normative scores. I asked the school if getting him an ASD diagnosis would help, but they said it would make no difference.

I have come to think that his biggest problems are impulse control (i.e., he wants to be well-behaved in class but just can't resist getting up to play even though he tries) and social communication (he takes longer to express things than other kids at school, even though he speaks rapidly at home when comfortable, so other kids start talking over him).

I'm not sure what I could ask for that would help with the impulse control. For communication, he needs someone to take the time to let him express himself if there is a problem - and that seems an easy fix that doesn't often happen (which is why he spent an afternoon in the principal's office by himself after someone else took his lunchbox).

One thing you might also ask around about is - does the charter school you are looking at seem to be willing to offer services to students who qualify or are they resistant (not just to your quest, but to other families). You could as the same of the other non-charter school also. If you're hearing that other schools in the district offer social skills services to children with ASD diagnoses, and you *aren't* seeing or hearing that at the schools you're looking at, that, combined with the things they've told you, is potentially a red flag that you're looking at schools that are not *wanting* to offer services and that may be difficult both to advocate with and to get adequate services and follow-through for them from once you have successfully advocated for them. That doesn't mean it will be impossible, just means it may be a bit of a fight (which you've already run into) plus it may mean that having an advocate to help guide you through the process will be important, if you can find one.

It's also probably worth letting yourself know - if they are making statements that are put out as a means of putting up a brick wall and discouraging you from proceeding further with a request for services (statements such as saying things like a student "can't qualify if they are working at grade level" etc), they may be assuming you are going to be intimidated by the statements and give up without understanding what they legally have to offer, what the legal process is, and what your ds is entitled to under the law. So sometimes things as simple as turning in a written request (see below) or mentioning FAPE etc will get you past this type of brick wall. I can tell you're well on your way to doing this, just mentioned it in case you are discouraged!

Another tactic that I used that worked well for responding to the nonsensical push-back that school staff would say at times was to always follow-up every phone call, every conversation, every meeting, with an email summarizing what I understood was said (emphasis on "I understood") and giving the other party a chance to respond with "that's not what we said". It not only clarifies that what they said (because they really did say it) wasn't appropriate, and it gives you a written record of what they can/are telling you officially at that point in time, that you can refer back to when you need to.


I am not an expert on IEPs, but fwiw, the students who qualify with ASD in our school district are qualified under "OHI" (Otherwise Health Impaired) - and I think you might be able to use that same qualifying "route" even if you don't have an ASD diagnosis. What you'd most likely need is a letter from a medical dr or psych stating the challenges and degree to which they impact your ds. The school will want to do their own evaluation, but if you have a letter from a medical dr and you submit a written request for an eligibility review, the school will have to at least call a team meeting and decide at that team meeting to either proceed with an eligibility review or give you a reason they feel it's not necessary. If they refuse to provide the eligibility review, you have a certain time period to appeal the decision.


I can't really think of anything specific re either at the moment but these are both issues that can be handled through accommodations, plus possibly issues that your ds would benefit from instruction in. I would consider using the example of how he sat in the principal's office as (I'm guessing) a consequence as a reason that he *needs* an IEP or a 504 plan for these situations. The response (on the part of the school) to a challenge needs to be appropriate, not punitive. Nothing is gained from any direction by putting a child in the principal's office all afternoon for a behavior (or other) issue that isn't due to willful bad behavior. First, a child should never be punished for something that they don't know how to do or don't have the control or ability to accomplish. Second, while he is sitting in the principal's office he is missing out on whatever learning is going on in the classroom, which means he's missing out on his FAPE.

In situations like this, it's convenient to have a "label" for the issue because you can state that the school can't punish a child for a behavior related to their disability. Even though your child doesn't have that "label" you can still express concern about the appropriateness of the consequence based on his known challenges, and also keep this as an example of why he needs an IEP/504.

Hope that makes sense!

Best wishes,

polarbear

They didn't leave him in the office all afternoon as a punishment. The sub saw he wouldn't sit (he wanted his lunch box back), the other kids said, "just send him to the principal's office," and she did. The principal wasn't there, so he sat on a bench all afternoon by himself with no one even asking what has happened. It makes me angry just thinking about it. This is the same kid who gets awards for good behavior when he is happy and his needs are met. When I picked him up, we both had to hunt for the lunchbox and finally found it under the cubbies.

The social skills options are in a larger district too far away to be an option. I've talked with someone who consults with school districts about accommodations and she told me there was no hope of getting anything if he's ahead of grade level. I'm not certain she is right, but it does seem like a struggle.

The charter school is very nice, but also very small. There are some good positives, but they just don't have the staff or facilities to provide special education. They do provide much better differentiation than the regular school, so that is helpful.

My daughter is extremely academically advanced and the picture of compliant, teacher's pet behavior. I think she has made them more accommodating of DS than they would be otherwise (which is unfair). I just don't want to leave DS in a negative situation for a too long while I try to work something out.

If I can develop specific ideas for what might help, then that would definitely be a good first step. The schools around here use corporal punishment and I have filed a letter saying they are not allowed, under any circumstances, to paddle my son. I worry that they see him as a troublemaker rather than as a child who is trying hard, though.

apm, we ultimately moved my ds out of public school even though we successfully advocated for an IEP. He went to a small private school that did *not* provide special education. What they did have was a staff that cared about making the right accommodations that would allow ds to be successful - and that made more of a difference than leaving him in public schools with an IEP every would have.

All school situations are different, of course - but fwiw, I wouldn't discount a school just because it was small or because it didn't offer sped services.

Best wishes,

polarbear

That makes sense. If I could just figure out what sorts of things would help, it would be easier to work out who could provide them.

Responding to a few things upthread:

A diagnosis of ASD would immediately make him eligible for at least a 504 under a disability category of autism. You might more easily get a diagnosis of communication disorder, though. Of course, this still requires figuring out what accommodations he needs. Remember that 504s are for major life functions, not necessarily grade-level achievement. If his disability is restricting his access to the major life function of positive peer relationships, then the district could absolutely write a 504 plan addressing social skills, bullying, etc.

An accommodation we frequently include for kids with a different understanding of social interactions is that they should not be subjected to any disciplinary action (such as being sent to the principal's office) without the supportive involvement of their special ed/504 liaison, the adjustment counselor, guidance counselor, therapeutic support person, or school psychologist (usually up to three of these staff are listed, the specific ones depending on who has the closest trusting relationship with the student). This allows a professional with understanding of the disability in question to act as an advocate and interpreter for the child, and a coach to help them get through what is usually a very stressful experience.

And I would agree that the best placement is the one where staff are willing to relate to each child as an individual, and do for them what they need. Ignorance and skill deficits can be remedied by inservicing and coaching. Attitudes and educational ideologies cannot.

These suggestions are very helpful and I'm working my way through them. The charter school is really nice and tries to be flexible. However, they only have a part time special education teacher and counselor who may well not even have certifications in those areas (I'm not sure). So I don't think there would be anyone who could help DS outside of his classroom teacher. At the public school, they do have more resources. I like the charter school and am not trying to be dismissive; they have tried really hard to help DS and I'm just getting discouraged that it's possible.

I talked with DS about these ideas and he really likes the option of a trusted adult he could talk with whenever something was wrong. When he is upset, he won't talk or explain unless someone really takes some time. I'm not sure if the charter school could offer anyone to do it, but the public school surely has someone (even if just the school nurse) who could let him sit quietly and try to explain rather than just going to the principal's office.

Well said! This bears repeating.Therefore I have repeated it.

I agree! But I often wish I could just homeschool.

The charter school has been very accommodating and accepted DS at the very end of the last school year. I have just been worried that they won't be able to handle DS if he has more difficulty as more is expected, and also his best friends are at the public school.

He can go to either this fall and we're running out of time to decide, while I also think it would be wrong to keep moving him). I didn't go into all of this in my first post for simplicity.