Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Basic math is hard but advanced concepts easy???

Not sure where to post this question, if it's even a question? But it does have to do with attention issues, possibly more, so this might be the right place.

DS5.8 has been homeschooled since Thanksgiving (Kindergarten). He has always been a mathy kid, figured out addition and subtraction early on (by the time he was 4) but has stalled once he started public K and even regressed. It took about a month after pulling him out of school to homeschool to get him back where he was and then he just slowly started going forward again. He clearly has issues with attention that we've been seeing over the years (I don't want to say full blown ADD but it's very possible). He has days when he can tell me what 9 + 9 is right off the bat, he will look at the clock and see it's 3:09 and tell me we have to leave in 21 minutes if we need to go somewhere at 3:30, but most days he has trouble telling me what 5 + 6 is. He's been doing Dreambox learning quite seriously the last couple of months and while he didn't like the Kidnergarten section of it and early 1st grade, now that he's hit 2nd grade concepts, he loves it and wants to use it every day. He understands how hundreds work, he's starting to play around with multiplication, he's been able to understand a lot about fractions for a long time now but the basic facts are always an issue. It's like he enters this fog and can't think. So when I saw how frustrated he was with this, I told him USE YOUR FINGERS ... we're homeschooling so I don't care how he gets to the number, practice makes perfect, right? Well, his 10 and my 10 fingers can only get him to a certain point, so I was at Ikea last week and got an Abacus there, gave it to him and he was so excited! He uses it to help him with the 2nd grade math every day. And now I'm getting to my questions ...
Let's say he'll have a problem 157 + 9 = ? ... and I just ONCE showed him how he can add 7 + 9 and go from there to figure out the answer. And he loves to use the abacus to figure out the 7 + 9 when it's his off day and his basic math fact calculator in that brain of his isn't working and he'll give me the answer to the whole problem. Or yesterday, he was comparing which one of the two is bigger ... e.g. N+35+10 and N+45-5 and all he asked me was "Why is there an N?" So I explained it's just like if he had the same number (any number) on both sides and he instantly understood the concept and went with it. Most days I don't even explain anything to him and let him work his way through everything. So, the question is, is it OK to let him use the abacus (or other ways of getting to the basic answers so he can work on the more challenging problems) or do I need to stop what we've been doing and just concentrate on drilling the basics? And is it possible there is some sort of an issue that's causing him to not be able to recall the easy answers but he can still easily apply harder concepts? In a way, we're having similar issue with reading. He can figure out phonetically how to read many words but sight words are a big deal. He just can't seem to recall them at all, with few exceptions. Sometimes I see him looking at easy math and he has that same blank look on his face like he can't see it and it's RIGHT THERE.

I remember when I was little, well, not just little, even now that I'm an adult, I had issues with the basic facts. I was still doing math on my fingers when I was in Math and Science middle school and it never stopped me from being one of the best students. I guess I just learned to compensate. I couldn't remember multiplication tables but was enjoying working with binary numbers as a 7 year old ... and that sort of thing.

Is this going to become an issue? Should I do anything about it or just let it go, knowing he's just a 5 year old kid?

thank you, master of none! Your DD sounds a lot like DS!

I also forgot to mention, he can easily do the math facts when he's being very physically active. The best place for him doing math is in a trampoline. He keeps jumping and giving me correct answers right away, no thinking about it. But once he sits down or is supposed to stay still to do it, it all gets very foggy for him. And like you said, then he gets frustrated and shuts down. He used to love math, than the first trimester of Kindergarten killed it for him and now he's back to loving it as long as he can learn new problems. He even tells me himself when I ask why he's choosing the more challenging problems in Dreambox that the harder problems make him learn more and he wants to learn more. Last month as he was working through 1st grade math in Dreambox, I was wondering if I should be even getting the renewal of the program since we were about to get to the end of the subscription, I was thinking he'd hit his limits really soon, but now he's doing the 2nd grade problems even faster and they seem to make more sense to him than anything before, so I guess we are not reaching his limits just yet?

Well, none of my three kids had issues with basic math and we never did math drills at home so take my opinion with a grain of salt. However, I do think that it is important for you to help your DS maintain at least age/grade appropriate basic math skills so that it will be clear as he ages if he does have a disability in this area and also to avoid loss of opportunities that may require basic math skills.

Having said all that, I also believe that you should not hold your DS back from soaking up new concepts just because his basic math skills are not established as yet. My inclination would be to leave it up to him as far as which concepts he wants to explore and just be available to assist when he requests help. It sounds like your DS has interest in math, which may actually provide incentive and opportunities for him to gain proficiency in basic math.

For what it is worth, with the exception of kids who were heavily drilled (i.e., kumon, etc.) I have never observed a child who wasn't more capable of understanding math concepts than mastery of procedures. It is sort of analogous with listening comprehension versus actual reading comprehension, where it would not be unusual to see a gap of a couple of years or more, especially in the earlier years. I believe this difference partially underlies the philosophy driving the spiraling in elementary mathematics: kids can understand concepts far earlier than they are ready to master the sometimes relatively complicated procedures.

DD is 8 and has a really hard time with math facts. She has ADHD and does a lot better with them when medicated. We worked a lot on fluency. She did Big Brainz which is a PC game and also Xtra math. The school district starts kids on something called My Skills Tutor in first grade to practice the facts. Usually these programs gradually progress the kids so they are just learning a few at a time. Some typing ability is required though, and kids have to have some degree of typing speed with numbers. You could also try flash cards and just do a few at a time. The goal is to have the facts memorized so tedious and time consuming finger-counting is not needed.

I'm just not sure if at all and how much I should worry about it now when his former classmates are just being introduced to addition to 10 and subtraction from up to 6 and for the most part have no idea what any of the math he's doing is all about.

We do mainly unschooling for now so whatever he's learning is his decision. I'm there to help when he asks me to help but most of the time he says "I don't want your help! I want to figure it out on my own!" which is exactly how I was as a kid. I couldn't stand anyone trying to explain things to me. I couldn't remember anything they told me. I had to figure out my own ways.

It certainly doesn't hurt to let it go for another year or so, or you could have him do math facts games if he enjoys them. I don't think I'd push it at this point.

We had a similar experience with math facts, initially, and also used Big Brainz, but they didn't seem to like that until they didn't need it. Competition with other children appeared to help for #1, and competition with self (beat your low score for time required to complete a set number of problems) for #2. I also found that #2 was better with oral responding than written, as fine-motor was not a preferred channel. Now that 1&2 are fluent in all arithmetic facts, they want to play the apps I downloaded years ago for them, as well as the ones I acquired for #3!

It was helpful that we used SM, which, contrary to popular perception, has a fair amount of reinforcement embedded in new skills and concepts, which was perfect for conceptual learners.

The trampoline thing makes me suspect that the issue with math fact automaticity when not active is that he is using most of his mental energy on managing his body, and has little left to retrieve math facts. Executive functions are very closely related to math skills, and if he has to devote most of his EFs to maintaining attention and sitting still, he won't have enough left for math. Jumping on a trampoline is also a large muscle, rhythmic activity, which can be organizing for some kids with EF dysfunctions, such as ADHD. Also, the flood of dopamine that occurs when engaged in a high-stimulus activity can be described as "normalizing" attention, which now frees up the brain to do other things, like retrieve math facts.

Keeping in mind that ADHD or ED are only disorders if they have clinical impact (aka, get in the way of your real life), I would say, let him do math while moving--jumping, swinging, jogging in place, orally most of the time, and on surfaces with good tactile feedback and large writing spaces when written (e.g., chalk on a chalkboard, sidewalk, or driveway; stick or finger in the sandbox). Plus, he is only five years old, so needing to be in constant motion is not exactly unusual!

I would also wait to worry about his reading. If this is still his pattern in another year, then you might have an issue, but I would try hands-on strategies for reading and spelling first, and see if his reading resolves on its own.

Mk13, I am not going to be able to offer any useful suggestions but wanted to let you know that my dd4.5 is similar. She is much better at math facts when she is jumping and twirling at the same time. Also, when solving the math fact is part of solving a bigger, more complex problem, she can do it much faster. It is as if she is then able to pull the data stored in her brain without having to think. So ask her how many apples if she eats 3 apples a day for a week, no problem. Ask her 7 plus 7, takes time. Go figure! At this age, like you mentioned, these kids are ahead of age peers so why bore them with something they have no interest in proving their mastery over. Instead, all I want for now is for her to continue to love math and figure things out. The rest will follow in due course.

My son is also 5 and kind of like this. He's always working out double-digit problems in his head (sometimes multiplying by saying 30+30+30+30 is 120!), but the other day hubby was trying to do missing addend problems with him (in a different language) and DS was frustrating hubby by not getting/knowing it.

This is apparently a common characteristic of visual-spatial learners, which might be something to look into. My son scored in the 99.9th percentile for visual-spatial skills, so I'm pretty sure this is him.

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aeh, so glad to see you posting! You have an insightful perspective that I've appreciated on a few threads. Thank you!

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