Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy giftedness and agreeable kids

Hi, I'm new to the board. I searched around to see if there was any writing on this topic already but didn't see any...feel free to point me to other threads or articles if you think any resonate.

DD is about to turn 7, first grade, public school. She hasn't been identified as gifted by her school or teachers, and while perhaps she isn't, it seems likely to me. I'm not sure of the exact meaning/scores of G/HG/PG but I myself am quite gifted, as is her dad, and she does show some indicators. She does math for fun on the weekends, and we ran out of web stuff to do, so I bought her a workbook for that--that's one example of how she seems gifted. We wrote a kids' book together and now we're making a website so she can showcase photographs of her rock collection...just stuff like that, that she comes up with on her own, and I just facilitate.

The school recently sent home a generic pamphlet on the gifted program and there was a checklist of traits which was adapted from these:

http://www.ode.state.or.us/teachlearn/specialty/tag/r5brightchild.pdf

The thing that strikes me is how personality-dependent some of these are. My DD is a very well-behaved and sensitive child: agreeable sometimes to a fault. For example, we moved her out of a classroom first semester of first grade because the teacher's very authoritarian style was too much for her. This lady's classroom management was godawful, and DD was bothered by much of how she treated the other kids (publicly threatening them with failing the grade, etc.--really terrible stuff), but in the face of this she became obsessed with making her own behavior perfect so she could help the class get their pajama party behavior reward--so much so that all her weekly goals centered around having perfect behavior and none around academics. She's much happier in her new class and actually talks about learning now!

Anyway, she doesn't like to hurt/upset anyone and is really bothered by anyone being angry with her. I don't ever really discipline her in regular ways, like time out or revoking privileges, because she's just way too sensitive. All I have to do is talk to her--remind her that how she is behaving is hurtful or unfair toward someone else and she stops, usually after crying. And this has been the case since 3-4. Because she is such a people-pleaser, trying to ferret out if she is bored in school is well-nigh impossible. I know she's reading at home at a higher level than they have her reading at school, but I sense immediately when I ask how school is, if it's challenging, that she's trying to figure out how I want her to feel--that if I want her to be bored, she'd say she's bored; if I want her to be happy with it, she'd say she's happy. So I mostly don't ask about school other than to say "what are you learning in school? how is everything going?"--and go from there.

I'm not even sure exactly where I'm going with this post except that a lot of the way some gifted kids seem to stand out--being bored, acting out, expressing a lot of displeasure, being defiant--is just not her personality. I'm not sure she'd be readily identified even if she were pretty gifted because her M.O. seems to be to be a good class citizen, work hard, and help people.

She has a great attitude, is a great kid, outgoing, funny, gentle, and exceptionally empathetic. I worry that she seems to have a lot of perfectionistic tendencies but so did I, in different ways, so I get it. Whether she is gifted or not, of course, in some sense doesn't matter, but if she is I don't want her overlooked. I guess I just wonder if these gifted lists are skewed toward malcontents? Squeaky wheel gets the grease kind of thing? I was more of a squeaky wheel myself... :-)

I wouldn't describe my DD9 as particularly empathetic, but otherwise, your child sounds very familiar.

One good way to get the information you're looking for is something you're already doing: asking questions in a way that doesn't require your DD to make a value judgement, just relate the facts, like "What did you do in school today?", rather than, "How did you like school today?" Over time, your DD will start to express her judgements along with them.

Apart from that, we found two markers that were very helpful in letting us know that there were major problems with DD in regards to school fit, so it might be helpful to look out for similar signs in your own DD:

- Major behavior changes at home. DD began having meltdowns over spilled milk (yes, literally). Any minor setback was blown out of proportion. DD started calling herself stupid. It escalated to her exploding as soon as she got off the school bus, and hitting her head against the wall.

- Hearing the teachers describe a child we did not recognize as our own. DD was described as compliant and polite (which we recognized), and also shy, quiet, and friendless (which was an alien child). It is true that DD is standoffish in first encounters, but sometime within the first few months she should have warmed up to someone, at which point she reveals her loud and goofy side.

I have two bright kiddos. While I have communicated to the school about each of them, I have ABSOLUTELY felt the need to advocate even more so for my DC whose personality is more like your DC's.

DS5 is quiet, but gets along well with his peers. He BLENDS and is compliant. I worry about a teacher not having any CLUE about what he already knows and how quickly he learns, so (so far) I communicate for him. This works well so far with the right teacher. I prefer to communicate objective measures, but this can be challenging when your DC is young and has not taken many tests or assessments. Communicating what books your DD is reading, or the types of math they enjoy could be one way to communicate where your DD is at in her learning.

My other DC is quite extroverted and outspoken. She doesn't try to blend and it is harder to "miss" her because of her personality. I guess she's a "squeaky wheel."

"Bright children" do not all have the same personalities - I am living with two examples of that.

My DD has a distinctly bimodal profile this way-- adults that she respects and doesn't know well-- she is VERY much like the OP describes. Perfect to a fault, and she is very-- so very-- good at determining what adults are expecting from her, and then delivering it.

On the other hand, authoritarian authority figures who are covering up their own insecurities or inadequacies? Oohhhhhh... well, when she is good, she is very very good, and when she is bad... OH MY.

Anyway. I digress.

Feel free to PM me if you like-- I have some experience with both the current and historical state of affairs re: GT ed in your state.


Let's just say that it varies tremendously locally-- and if you're in one of four or five districts statewide, you're in luck (kind of) and if not, well... not so much. State mandate, yes (with caveats-- there's not much 'differentiation' since that part of things isn't really spelled out) and there's no funding for any of it in any event.

DS is very compliant and pretty much always acts happy. I wouldn't say he's particularly sensitive, just extremely laid back. His last teacher used this as justification for not giving him work at the right level. She thought I was a tiger mom because I said he was bored. DS went to school and acted happy even though he was bored, so she thought I was crazy. She didn't care about his test scores or the fact that he could learn much faster than what she was teaching. All she saw was that he was a "happy" kid and therefore there was no need to do anything different. I told him that he HAS to advocate for himself. That I can't do it all for him. I do think that, like your DD, he also didn't want to offend her or make her mad, so he just didn't say anything. It was easier not to and to just go along with whatever she wanted him to do.

I was a very agreeable kid, as far as school goes -- and about half and half on that chart. I have one kid who is PG and anything but agreeable, and one who is very agreeable (school-wise) and still undetermined as to G.

My DD tries to be a people pleaser and is to a point but when she is done complying she is DONE:). She is HG to PG depending on the measure and likes to please adults but her stubbornness does get the better of her at times!

Welcome! Hoagies' Gifted Education Page may be of interest, especially Highly, Exceptionally, and Profoundly and What is Highly Gifted? Exceptionally Gifted? Profoundly Gifted? And What Does It Mean?

While the cut scores vary by test instrument,
Profoundly > Exceptionally > Highly > Moderately gifted.

HG+ is an informal, unofficial umbrella term for Highly gifted and above. It would include Highly, Exceptionally, Profoundly gifted.

In other words they don't have standardized meanings.

Your daughter sounds a lot like me when I was a kid and my people-pleasing perfectionist tendencies have held me back in more ways than I can count. To the extent that the people pleasing is an offshoot of perfectionism, I'd suggest reading up on the evils of perfectionism and doing what you can to nip it in the bud. The book Freeing Our Families from Perfectionism is one good place to start.

While articles such as The Parenting and Education of Gifted Students by Jan Davidson Ph.D. are positive and informative regarding gifted traits and identification of the gifted, it is mentioned that "unchallenged bright students are at risk for frustration, depression, underachievement, and often give up on school as a place of learning" and that they may exhibit "an inability to concentrate on a task that is not intellectually challenging, including repetitious ideas or material presented in small pieces."

These traits are not describing malcontents, but are raising awareness of the unfortunate impacts of a learning environment which does not "fit". This information helps alert parents and teachers to signs and symptoms, and also offers suggestions on providing a stimulating, challenging, supportive learning environment.

Two more books which seem to understand very well and which many find supportive are What To Do When Good Enough Isn't Good Enough and Perfectionism: What's Bad About Being Too Good. While insightful, these are written gently for kids, in a style that is fun and engaging. Some parents pre-read books before giving them to their children, others prefer to read/discuss together with their children.

FWIW, your description of your daughter reminded me of this old Linda Silverman article about gifted girls being chameleons at school
http://www.jeffcogifted.org/images/jagc/pdfs/where_have_all_the_girls_gone.pdf

I was thinking maybe you could also have a friend or family member question your DD independently as well. A lot of children may also be parent pleasers and say what you want to hear. With others they be more forthcoming about their feelings and actual experiences as they are not taking your feelings into account. Sometimes pretend or puppet play can do this too, even if you're there, a lot of children will talk to the puppet and say their true feelings.

I was sitting here scratching my head, like, "How does she know what state I live in? There's gifted, and there's psychic..." HA! I assume you may think I live in Oregon but I don't. That's just the website where I found the list the school sent home. I'm in VA. :-)

I really appreciate all the replies. This is FANTASTIC. The recommendations on perfectionism seem really apt. I agree people-pleasing can hold people back. I'm a people-pleaser, too, to an extent, but I think DD got it on both sides, and she's more mellow than I am.


I also just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean "malcontents" disparagingly or anything. I just know as a kid I came home and told my parents, flat out, that school was boring because "they won't let me learn." That kind of thing made me easy to spot, giftedness-wise.

I agree, just because someone is acting happy at school doesn't mean she shouldn't be taught to her level. Not only the dissatisfied kids deserve a challenge...

This site needs a "like" button. :-)

I don't have personal experience either way, but I've certainly read of plenty of cases where precisely the opposite happens.

Ahhhh!

Wow, though-- not a good sign when other states are relying on (ahem) "Mississippi-o-the-north" for GT resources.

Sorry, but that is what locals to this coast call K through 12 education out here. For a lot of very good reasons, I might add. There is a smart cohort of kids in the system, but wowie, does that system ever fail them in myriad ways, while patting itself on the back that they're doing a great job. Well-- no. Actually, given the budget they work with, OR should look like MA. And boy, howdy it sure doesn't-- in any respect whatsoever (other than the distribution of white-collar parents and the basic demographics of families). A quick comparison to WA (which should look identical for a host of reasons) reveals just how hideous public education has become in Oregon over the past fifteen years. There are major structural problems, and most of them translate into problems for the classrooms, too. GT is one of the hardest-hit domains, sadly.

What I know of YOUR state, on the other hand, is all second-hand and while not nearly "rosy" it isn't quite as bleak as the picture in OR.

Oh...this comment intrigues me. Do tell!?

Again, not my direct experience, but from reading threads on this forum and elsewhere, I gather that in some schools, children who obediently do all the boring busywork correctly are favored (for access to advanced work) over those who refuse because it's to easy, or who made mistakes due to frustration/boredom. They are not given the chance to demonstrate more advanced skills, but instead must demonstrate compliance with non-advanced tasks. Another problem is that lack of exemplorary classroom conduct may disqualify one for access to advanced work. Instead, the imperfect classroom conduct is focussed on as a problem to be resolved before academics are considered.

This type of gifted child always makes everyone proud, has a strong inner sense of ethics and morals, but may have to make time up later in life figuring out what they really want.

Maybe it won't happen, but it is likely they will find that to follow their intuition they have to divert from what family and friends are saying to do.

When you are young it lines up to follow what family and friends are saying to do and it almost feels like an obligation to do so.

When you become an adult, have your own place, start a career, take a partner, have a child, whatever, then the gifted person realizes that their path comes from their intuition about things. (Yes, this might just be for those with strong Myers-Briggs intuition like INFP people in those studies.)

All of a sudden there are new obligations to spouses, bosses, children, society, etc. Their world really opens up, so spend time with them when they are young! They might be up in the air on an airplane once they are adults.

This perfectly captures what happened for DS' entire first grade year. In addition, these mistakes and non-compliance were held up as evidence that DS was unlikely to be gifted, since "we've had gifted children and they are always the ones finding something productive to do." (DS was finding his version of productivity, entertaining his classmates with his comedic routines. The teachers were not amused.) He later tested at the PG level.

And also something I fought against for years when I was on the gifted screening committee in my old district; teachers consistently referred kids with IQs in the 110s who were personable, compliant, and worked quickly, and routinely overlooked a few kids with CogAT and ITBS scores in the 130s across the board. Oh, and they underreferred students of color and linguistic minorities, too.

I think one of the problems is that a lot of teachers refer children who are like themselves, or an idealized picture of themselves at that age.

ConnectingDots could have been describing my DD's year with her math teacher (her Language Arts teacher seems to understand her, at least). The math teacher actually wanted to put her in the slow-moving group because she didn't comply with a lot of this teacher's requirements about type of paper, position of name, date, and staple, and so on. Refused to believe me when I tried to explain that DD is gifted.

Aeh, what you wrote is interesting. I stumbled across and old article in the NY Times about gifted programs in New York, and one of the commenters said the basically same thing: that gifted minority students get overlooked (have just tried and failed to find that comment in a field of 176 of them ). That's very disturbing.

DD7 made her very first complaint to her teacher today! I'm partly proud and surprised, partly apprehensive and not at all surprised. Very complex reactions as you can see, lol!
DD loves school, is happy to comply, loves following rules, loves the routines, the friendships, works hard, engages fully and is super polite - but if she's anything like her brother, this will start to go sour by about age 9-10. I can see it coming. Right now she's a teacher's dream. In a few years, very few of them will understand her. A couple of them will LOVE everything she says and is. The rest will think she's off-topic, odd-ball, unfocused, too difficult.
Her teacher this year (the year starts in February here) is awesome and completely took her complaint on board and is doing his best against the school policy of "if we give her xyz now, we'll run out of things to teach her." With a less-interested teacher things will go sour faster.
Luckily this time, fingers-crossed, we're forewarned and forearmed. Last time we had noooo idea what had hit us

Not all children react that way. Some, especially girls, just fade into the class. Think about it - the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the child with behavioural issues gets the testing. Those kids are malcontents because of their IQ, but having a high IQ does not always make you a malcontent.

Of course, these kids (often girls) don't ever learn to work or struggle or overcome adversity, which is a problem in later life, but in school they don't make themselves obvious. I can't tell you how many sweet, gentle calm high IQ kids I know who were tested because a sibling was having issues at school.

Yes, a thousand times. This is very true. And a very big problem later in life.

The Merriam-Webster definition of malcontent is "a person who is always or often unhappy or angry about something".

This definition may describe a person with a generally negative view who seeks to find fault with whatever is at hand in many circumstances. This may contrast sharply with a person frustrated with an issue, such as a poor fit with a learning environment: rebelliousness triggered by being steeped in repetition of material already mastered.

Lists of possible observable identifying characteristics of the gifted are only meant to help broaden one's thinking from the narrow, stereotypical, and historical view of "teacher's pet" as being gifted; Such lists were not intended to preclude "teacher's pet", compliant, or agreeable children from being identified as gifted.

There are differing cultural norms (and different adages such as "the nail that sticks out will get hammered down" and "tall poppy syndrome"). The wikipedia page about the adage "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" describes these briefly.

This was my DD. She tried very hard to conform to her teachers' expectations of her, even going so far as to pretend not to know things she'd mastered years before.

Luckily, she has very squeaky parents.

This is true. Many gifted kiddos, including identified kiddos, hide their gifts and talents. There are threads discussing this. It is not necessarily an identification issue. Rather, it may be students seeking social acceptance and inclusion. This may be an unfortunate side-effect of a society seeking ever greater educational, academic, and intellectual conformity/uniformity rather than valuing unique, creative, diverse intellectual positions.

Prior to lists of common behavioral characteristics of gifted children being created, misbehaving children may not have often been tested for giftedness. The lists raised awareness. Is it your observation and experience that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction... that only children with behavior issues are being tested?

When you say this, what definition of "malcontent" are you working with?

It is not just girls that fit this profile... even though DS is only 3.5, we already seen signs that he will fade into the perceived age level behavior and disguise the full extent of his capacities. Every single teacher/coach always told us how he fits so well regardless if the room is full of boys or girls, and how girls love how calm and mellow he is. We had one teacher mention to us that if you did not pay attention, you would not notice how smart he was because he is so well behaved and blends in so well (and I don't think she even realized the full extent of his mental capacity). We were so surprised that even at 3, we would see this fading into the background (and major signs of boredom that the teacher had not noticed since he was very subtle in how he handled his boredom behind the teacher's back) - we are definitely keeping a close eye on his younger sister too, but I have a feeling she will be the squeaky wheel.

So we are already trying to learn all about the options we have and dealing with the fact that even at this young age, we have to keep a close eye on daycare/preschool and make sure they are where they belong, and not stick strictly to the traditional age groups mindset.

To speak in terms which do not send a mixed message, interested parents may wish to use words like "advocacy", "self-advocacy", "raising awareness", and "making needs known". These terms are positive and show that we back the efforts of other parents and children to speak up regarding appropriate curriculum placement and pacing for students who need or may benefit from advanced academics.

Meanwhile terms like "squeaky wheel" and "malcontent" may be seen as negative labels and send a message of disapproval... a message which seems to value hiding one's gifts and talents.

Thanks, everyone, for all the feedback. It was crucial in persuading me that I really ought to go talk to the teacher and just bring up some things I had noticed. One, DD is reading at a higher level at home than at school--teacher said this is very normal, actually (?), but that she can't bump all the kids up who are reading higher-level books because of inappropriate content.

Her answer didn't actually make much sense, because DD isn't even in the highest group in her class, so she could be bumped...but I think the teacher thinks she's placed correctly, and maybe she is. It's the end of the year, anyway, so I am more thinking ahead for next year. Her school-identified reading level is N but she has read both Lemony Snicket and Diary of a Wimpy Kid, one of which is like V or something--I can't quite remember. That seems odd to me, that's 8 levels, but teacher said kids will read ahead if they are motivated by the content. Does this sound true? That's a LOT ahead.

We also asked how she is with math and the teacher said "Great." She noted that there are some kids who finish the worksheets faster and are really good at then helping their classmates who didn't get the concepts as quickly, and DD is generally one of these "helpers." She also said she doesn't worry about DD being placed anywhere, in any class, "because she fits in everywhere, she just fits right in with anyone, and she's always helping the people who are struggling."

I think she meant it as a compliment but I found it depressing. If she's really finishing so fast, shouldn't she get a chance to move ahead to more advanced work instead of having to tutor other kids? DD even came home concerned one day that a partner in math class "wasn't getting any of the problems right; I helped her and by the fourth worksheet she was getting SOME right, but I don't think she really understands fractions." I asked DD how many she herself got right on the worksheets and she said all of them, on all the worksheets. So she just spent the entire class helping this girl, then feeling concerned that she couldn't help her more? That sounds kind of kooky to me.

So I mentioned to the teacher that DD would like more work in math when she finishes early, and that she does it for fun on the weekends, so the teacher mentioned giving her more packets, but I doubt anything will come of that, really, since DD is also "happy to help," and I think DD "helping" helps the teacher more than DD doing more advanced work.

I didn't ask about the gifted program specifically because after these answers I thought it was implied that she felt DD was appropriately placed. It's almost the end of the year and they won't consider nominations again anyway until September. I am having a really hard time advocating here because we already had her moved out of one class for emotional reasons, and this class has gone much better, so I want to let things lie a bit here at the end of the year.

One strategy her dad (who is way worse at being assertive than I am, and I am not very good) has mentioned is possibly just having her privately tested over the summer, then if the results indicate giftedness, we have more to bring to the table than our observations, which I felt were easily explained away in the conference I described here. We both feel steamrolled in situations with authority figures and find it easier to proceed with hard evidence. What do you guys think of that option?

I didn't honestly feel comfortable saying much about my DD's abilities until I had some objective evidence (standardized test scores). She seemed very bright to me, but I didn't think my "gut feeling" would mean much to the school, so for the most part, I didn't bother. You, too, may feel more comfortable advocating for your DD once you have some test scores in hand. The nice thing about private testing is that you can have it done, and then decide whether you wish to share it with the school.

BTW, my "compliant blender" is DS. DD, actually, is neither er, particularly compliant, nor does she always care to blend. I could EASILY see DS being missed by a teacher because he is quiet and usually well-behaved. So yes, it is not just the girls who are like this.

That teacher is toxic.

Exactly why dd is being tested - she'll work to the expected level to keep the teacher happy

You mean the teacher I described? Can you say more about that? She was infinitely preferable to the first teacher we dealt with this year

She sounds a lot like my son. I didn't think he fit the profile of a gifted kid (in the emotional sense) so I didn't pursue testing till he started insisting on doing harder math at school. He is definitely gifted! We live in a school district where you have to be at the 99% to get into the gifted program and I would say the majority of the kids are exceptionally mature. Personally I think the desire/intensity to learn is a better indicator (at least it was in our case).

I updated in the Testing forum--we're going to have her privately tested with the WISC-IV test in a few weeks. Interestingly, I requested her CogAT scores and they're pretty average (the school indicated this was a screening and not a full test).

I read the explanation and don't think it applies. She wasn't anywhere near getting all the questions right. That said, I know nothing about how the test was administered, what kinds of questions it contained, or anything that might have been going on that day to affect her performance. Picture analogies were 12/16, number analogies were 9/16, and figure matrices were 11/16. Overall age percentile is 62nd, grade percentile is 50th. No idea. We will just see how she does on the WISC-IV, but yeah, with results like that, I can't fault the school for not identifying her for subsequent testing.

Yes, kids read at a lower level at school because they're not just decoding and being carried along by the excitement of the story. In reading groups they're being asked hard questions, analysing the text, remembering small details, reading between the lines, inferring things about the character's motivations, etc. You'd find that easier to do on a John Grisham book than on Chaucer because the low level book (most mass market fiction is about 6th grade level) needs no concentration to decode. Because these kids are just learning how to use their higher order thinking skills on text it helps to have a comparatively easy book to practice on.

Yogawordmom... we had a similar issue with school. My DS is in K and they had him assessed at reading on a 2nd grade level. This was the highest group. They insisted he was reading at second grade even though at home he's devouring books at a much higher reading level. We had him tested and he's reading at an almost 6th grade level, and comprehension was just as high.

The reading level question is an interesting one. I am really not sure of DD's reading level, or even that such a thing can be definitively known--but her fluency is 190 WCPM and that is about 50th percentile for 8th graders. (Grade level expectation was 53.) Her guided reading level, according to them, is Q--4th grade. All of that seems to suggest she may benefit from differentiated reading instruction, though I am not sure how uncommon she is for her particular class/school.

Fluency is a proxy for reading comprehension, and a surprisingly good one, considering that they are not really the same skill, but still only a proxy. What it actually measures is decoding fluency. Where decoding skills pretty much level off late in middle school, an 8th grade level wpm just says she's achieved mastery in decoding. (This assumes she was reading 8th grade difficulty level text, BTW.) There are much better standardized measures of reading comprehension, if one wants to put the time and expense into it (the TORC-4 comes to mind), though none as efficient for school/class-wide screening as a one-minute reading fluency probe.

The key word in that last sentence is "comparatively." Where this process falls down for gifted early readers is that the reading level becomes "shockingly" or "insultingly" easy given their ability levels. If the reading is far below their level, you lose their interest, and they miss out on those tiny details that they're asked to regurgitate in order to demonstrate what they term, at that level, "comprehension."

Also, the questions in early elementary are often stupid, obvious questions. For example, a sample text might read:

"The old man decided to go outside. He put on his pants. He put on his shoes. He put on his hat."

And a "comprehension question" might read: "Why did the old man put on his hat?"

The expected answer is, "because he decided to go outside." But it's a stupid question, because this is not the '40s, and people don't always wear a hat outdoors anymore. So a gifted reader naturally concludes that the text did not give a proper reason why he wore a hat, and tries to guess, based on the little context given. Hmmm... we know he's old. "Because he's bald?"

The answer is marked wrong, and the teacher then reports the child is the one with comprehension problem, rather than the other way around.

Or they totally shut down any attempts to teach from too-easy material.

Even now, my DS2.7 is brilliantly noncompliant (and quite understandably so!) if someone patronizes him with text like, "A fat fox sat next to a dog on the red mat." It might be roughly the appropriate decoding level for him, but he despises the lack of meaningful content and will openly mock whoever is "testing" him (ahem...MIL!) or just stare blankly into space. The person might then revert to testing him on phonics and letter names, thinking he didn't know how to read, which would send him running around the room making up jibberish sounds in contempt. Add to that the fact that he often mouths or whispers his reading and it creates a situation where not identifying his ability is highly likely. I imagine older kids might also go underground when unchallenged, or portray a much lower mastery than their actual ability if they are even somewhat perfectionistic.

To a person testing DS who doesn't know him, he'd look like a kid who hasn't even grasped the alphabet, but if they just gave him something at a similar level to the text above, but with more meaning like, "Mad banners, bad manners", he'd read it and then dissect the joke.

DS6's kindergarten teacher says he is the only kid who she has ever caught trying to sandbag her before-school-starts proficiency testing. He claimed not to know the names of half the letters in the alphabet, then started reading to her fluently.

Dude has nicely encapsulated precisely why I am beyond proud of my DD's work ethic in earning A's through high school curriculum, which was most definitely in this kind of category.



The problems created by a too-sophisticated grasp of beyond-context, implied, or connotative meaning are really refractory to solutions other than substantive differentiation. The larger problem is often convincing average-intelligence educators that this is a REAL phenomenon at all. They seem to really believe that the "smartest" kids will not "misread" questions this way.

And my son would look at that question. Conclude that the text didn't give a proper answer and write nothing and get a zero. The teacher would then wonder if the child is being defiant, refusing to do homework, or when this happens for an entire assignment and so he doesn't turn it in, he is not organized and needs "study skills".

Are you saying it is very likely that if she has mastered decoding she also has high comprehension, or not really? She can easily read/pronounce words, nearly all of them, really. But that doesn't mean she knows what they mean.

Statistically, the population that has mastered fluent decoding is likely to be higher in comprehension than the population that has not (seems obvious!). So in a screening situation, wcpm is an efficient means of identifying a first cut of students who may need support in either reading decoding or reading comprehension. There is a better correlation between fluency and comprehension than face validity would suggest, but it is not perfect. There are definitely kids who can decode excellently, but not comprehend (hyperlexic), and those who can comprehend, but decode very slowly (many compensated dyslexics).

So I'm saying that, on a population level, yes, if she has mastered decoding, she is likely to have high comprehension, but on an individual level, no, this is not a guarantee that she actually has strong comprehension.

Probably just confused you even more...sorry!

I guess I'm just saying that the value of your reading test results is highly dependent on the instruments that were used, and the ones you've listed are either weak predictors of classroom reading comprehension achievement for a specific student, or it is unclear what the instrument is, and thus how much weight to put on it.

And if your child's decoding level is too hush you will be told they have comprehension problems as a matter of course.

i agree that most classrooms suck, but even in a non-insultingly easy classroom the comparative difference between where they read for pleasure and where they can analyse the text holds true. I don't know if it's just because of age/maturity or because of length of reading experience, but I was utterly convinced when the argument was presented to me. It definitely fit with what I saw in my kids as very early readers. There was a big difference for my kids in how much brain power they had to use on decoding in the first six months of fluent reading compared to after they really really took off. They wouldn't have had the spare processing power to remember and really think about the text if they'd been studying instead of just reading How to Train Your Dragon at that stage.

Hush=high?--sorry, on an iPad, responding to puffin but can't seem to use the quote feature.

Sorry having autocorrect and tiredness issues.

We did the private testing and she tested high average, not gifted. I'm coming back here to post because I thought maybe some of you might have some ideas of where I can go to get support for this. I know this may sound strange, but I have not associated with anyone not gifted in my adult life, and all of my friends have gifted kids--seriously--and I want to make sure that I am informed on how to advocate for her in the educational system we are in. Also somewhat worried about making sure she feels ok inside her family, since her parents and step siblings are all gifted. Maybe this difference just isn't a big deal but I'd feel better having a network of similarly-situated people to talk to. Any ideas?