Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments School Decision Time

Pud (almost 7) just finished 1st grade at our public school. He has been identified by them as gifted and they have a 1 1/2 hour a week pullout program for enrichment. They do not have acceleration, either full grade or subject (well, they'd have to do full grade if we really fought for it but it is against district policy). We had a really bad year in 1st grade trying to get them to give him accelerated work (or at least skip the stuff he already knew). He recently took the End of Second Grade ITBS and scored 97th Percentile, GE= 4:7. I'm looking at these school options (with comments):

1) Second grade at public school - Principal has agreed to pretest him in math and reading and let him do what she calls rubrics, crossword puzzles with math terms, "number searches", drawing a house and measuring sides, writing about math items. All of that depends on the teacher, which they won't reveal to me until a week before school starts. School offers acceleration in math in 5th grade. I dealt with the Vice Principal all last year and never got anwhere. She will take the principal's place in January. They will continue to do Saxon phonics. The GT pullout program will study Egypt.

2) Private school (SCA) - they did the ITBS and suggest putting him in 4th grade (a 2 year skip). DH opposed to this because of age and maturity level; not sure if he is mature enough for 4th grade content. We have discussed putting him in 3rd there and moving him to 4th mid-year. SCA meets 2 1/2 hours a day 4 days a week and does not have music, PE, recess, or art. Parents provide that. It is expensive. This would give us time to do extra projects and activities at home. SCA director thinks he could conceivably (?) be ready for college by 12 or 13 (eek). They don't have much wiggle room with a short day, so there's not in-depth coverage. It would cover the fundamentals, though.

3) Home School - This would probably meet his academic needs. DH opposed to this completely citing structure, discipline, and sanity. Pud and I have done some this summer and it would be very hard as we are both stubborn and strong willed. I can foresee many power struggles. It would also be hard with an only child as he has no "built-in" playmates.

I've looked into transferring to another school in the district (NO), buying into a nearby school district that has a better GT program (but they won't test him until he is enrolled and I don't want to enroll him unless he qualifies; she told me his CoGat scores wouldn't be enough to qualify him; he'd have to take the Nagliere?) (NO was their answer), Montessori, and religious schools. I didn't get a warm fuzzy about the Montessori. The religious schools close by are too religious. There are two religious schools farther from us but they are way, way expensive and would involve about 4 hours a day of drive time. I've looked at another private school but it only goes to 4th grade and then we'd be doing this all over again.
Questions I am considering: What is your long term goal for Pud? Do I want him to be going to college at age 16 or 17? Skipping grades starts down a path that will lead to this. Will he be emotionally mature enough for that? Will he "get burned out" from the pressure of performing and "growing up" too fast?

Do I just want him to be challenged and happy in school? What will it take for that to happen? Could enrichment in grade level satisfy the issue of being challenged while allowing social development with same age peers? Would advancement cause social/emotional issues? What about playtime?

By the way, I did the IAS and he scored a 55, which indicates "good candidate for acceleration". Interpersonal skills subtotal was his lowest. And, I did it without any input from the school or teacher.

Thoughts, opinions, questions, ideas? Sorry this got so long. I've got to make a decision soon. I'm leaning toward 3rd grade at SCA and considering it "building a foundation" while we build structures "off site" (sorry, construction terms) to add once we are certain of a solid foundation.

I think 3rd grade at the private school sounds like the best option because it sounds like they really "get" him there. I wouldn't worry about college, yet. If he finishes high school early he can take classes at a nearby college and transfer to a university of his choosing when he is a little older.

There are other options to fill some time and build maturity such as study abroad exchange programs where he would live with a family and attend a high school in a foreign language.

I would play it by ear, just go with what looks like the best option right now. These kids change so fast it's hard to plan too far ahead.

Cathy

Wow. That is a hard decision. I'm pretty new to all this, too, but I would like to ask some questions. What did your son think of first grade? You said it was a bad year for getting any accelerated work, but did he enjoy going to first grade? Did he have friends and enjoy it socially? We did a mid-year grade skip this year from second to third and the decision was easier because he was miserable in second grade socially (as well as being bored). Part of the Iowa Acceleration Scale is asking the child what he or she wants to do. I was just curious what your son's decision would be.

The private school sounds like they are willing to work with a gifted kid and let him find where he is comfortable academically (and presumably socially). It sounds a bit more flexible. Have you tried going over the head of your public school principle? We just had a meeting with our school district's curriculum director and found her to be much more understanding of HG+ kids and their needs. Our public school gave us a single grade skip and pull-out classes (which are less than desirable!), but never really seems to "get" our son or his needs. The curriculum director immediately began speaking about asynchronous development in highly gifted kids and made suggestions about additional subject acceleration in science and compacting in math. I don't think we would have gotten that without going up the food chain a bit. You might find that if other schools in your district have a history of accelerating gifted kids, then you can use that as a setting a precedent (even if it is not in your actual school).

I hope some of this helps. If it is any comfort to you, my son did much, much better after a one year grade skip in the middle of the year. He will now graduate from high school at age 16, provided there are no additional whole grade skips. The problem is that he learns so quickly that he mastered all of the material in third grade before the year was out. <sigh> Unfortunately, there are no easy answers when school groups kids based on age and not ability.

Each kid is different and you kind of have to listen to your gut instincts on what you think is best. You know your son better than anyone else, and you are the best person to decide where he should be. Trust yourself.

Yes, I agree with Cathy: cross the college bridge when you come to it. Pud could always take college-level classes online or at a small college until he's a bit older, or take a gap year (or more) to travel or work at an internship. As many HG+ kids have trouble deciding what to be when they grow up, such options can be really good ones for some kids!

I'd recommend that you worry about what works for Pud now, not way down the line.

I have a few questions about homeschooling as an option. I know it's going to sound like I'm doing the hard-sell, so I'll apologize in advance. I promise that's not my intention. It's just that since homeschooling solved for us a lot of the very problems you mention, I have questions for you about your take on it.

What have you struggled over with him this summer? Can you explain what's gone wrong so that maybe we can see if homeschool is really just a bad fit for you and Pud (it could be!) or if there's something else going on? How are you doing the homeschooling this summer? What's your approach? Is it possible this is a conflict between the way you're teaching and his personality type rather than homeschooling in general? Is he resisting because school is out and he wants to play? (I'm getting some of that myself, actually.)

Why is your DH worried about structure and discipline? Unless you're a lax parent now, you probably won't be as a homeschooler. And not every kid needs a highly structured learning environment. Maybe Pud does--in which case, you'd need to provide that, obviously. But for our part, we're pretty laid back, and DS7 has done fine with it. Discipline is actually a lot less of a problem than it was when he was in a lousy school fit and a kid with a bad attitude. What's the source of concern there?

One key: before we decided to HS, I discussed the prospect with him and what would be expected of him, and I got his buy-in. This meant that he had to promise to do the work I assigned to him--or at least discuss any problems rationally and respectfully with me--as I was promising the state that we would educate him appropriately. I told him that if I couldn't do that, then he would have to go back to the public school. We had a bad day here or there, but he generally cooperated very nicely with me. When we had problems, it was almost always a sign that the material I was giving him wasn't where he needed it to be. I don't think he ever just rebelled for the sake of a power struggle. Of course, he did NOT want to go back to the bad fit of public school, so he was pretty highly motivated to cooperate...and naturally my kid may be very, very different from your kid. I realize that my experience may not translate at all to yours, but I think it's worth considering at least.

Another point: DS7 does not spend a whole lot more time on all his homeschool work than he spent on his boring, too-easy homework from the school. Getting him to finish that homework was like pulling teeth, and we fought about it all the time! But in homeschooling, you can follow the child's lead a lot more. Yes, there are some things they just have to do. But not as many as you might think because you have a lot more room to follow the lead of a strong-willed child than you get in a classroom. Seriously, I can't even express how much LESS of a struggle we have over schoolwork now than we used to have! I'm wondering what's causing your struggles--???

As for the sanity: are there any good homeschool groups in your area? Or would you have to go it alone? How about Scout troops or sports teams? Any kids in the neighborhood who might be available to play after school? There are kids out there if you know where to find them. I'd start with the homeschool groups. Personally, without a good group, I wouldn't be homeschooling myself. They're gold!

Finally, do you have child care? That's my other sanity saver. I couldn't do this without a couple of good, reliable sitters!

My vote would depend on your answers to these questions (if you choose to answer--you certainly don't have to!).

But I think it's safe to say that public school seems to me to be the worst choice, no matter what. Either homeschooling or private school sounds a lot better.

I hope you get good help!

We are in a very similar position, with DS just finishing first and needing at least a 2 year skip to be meaningful. If homeschool is just not seeming like the way to go right now, I would say definitely try the partial home school option with the skip to 3rd! Any school that offers you a 2 year skip off the bat sounds worth a try. Just for the record we are likely homeschooling in the fall (we're about 90% decided on that - our pretend summer homeschooling is going quite well even though we aren't doing a whole lot).

The college at such a young age thing seems really scary for us too and we are just going to cross those bridges as we get there. Kriston is right - there are always other things you can do to burn up a couple years. I don't see DS going to live at school until at least 17. And we have a number of good schools within 20 miles of us, so he has lots of options locally. We don't have any options similar to your part time/GT option, and if I had a similar option I might give it a try for a year and see how it goes. My son is socially very comfortable at age level (really does well with kids of all ages it seems), so it's not really clear that a 2+ year skip would be great and 1 wouldn't be enough to put a dent in the problem.

Anyway - best of luck with these decisions! Keep us posted!

I too say worry about the college later and look what you want for him right now. If it's challenging environment then it looks like you either need to go with a grade skip or homeschool. The skip to the 3rd grade sounds like a good idea, like Dottie says you still want to have your child in the top 10% of his new class. You can always move him to the 4th later on.

What does DS think about it? Does he want to go back? Does he have friends in school he would miss? What does he think about the other school? Would he like to have more time for himself?

Kriston has a good point about summer and the kids wanting and needing a break.

Good luck with your decision.

A retired GIFTED teacher says:

"I would definitely not put him in 4th grade or let him skip a grade. Challenging him is the problem, not accelerating. Even gifted students need a good solid foundation. The teacher can give him other work, if he pre-tests out of the subject. a 97 % does not necessarily mean "true gifted." 97% is the cut off for being tested in <SD>. There are other criteria. He will be tested in 2nd grade this year in <SD> and see if he makes the gifted program. If he does he will be challenged there.
I would think about sending him to 2nd grade, but letting the staff there know his gifts. Social skills are important for gifted children also."

Granted, all she knows about my child is that he scored 97 %tile on the End of 2nd grade ITBS.

HS: I don't understand my husband's objections to HS. My issue with it is that Pud would rather just read what he wants to read and do ALEKS on the computer than actually do what I tell him to do. For example, he takes piano lessons. He won't practice, no matter how much we reward, discipline, punish, encourage, motivate. He just decides he IS NOT going to do it. I did join a HS group and they have lots of activities. Pud doesn't know what he wants. No child care set up yet - unless I put him in a daycare, I haven't found an answer to that yet. I'm not sure what's causing our struggles now, either, Kriston. We set some goals for the summer - mostly things he wants to learn, with 2 things I threw in there that I know he needs to keep up with (like writing and math facts). But, one of his goals is to learn division. I taught him the basic "it means how many times will x go into y" or "how many 4s does it take to make 12". He got that quickly and did 1 1/2 pages or problems. He now refuses to do any more problems. So, maybe we've met the goal and maybe we haven't. Maybe that's part of the problem - defining what the goals actually mean.

As for last year, he made one friend, who, unfortunately, moved to Utah just after school was out. He hasn't even mentioned any of the other kids from school. He had an okay year - it was really hard for me. The teacher was totally resistant to making any changes. I saw that he was not being challenged. He said he liked school but it was a battle every morning to get him dressed and there. He would fall apart frequently at home. Well behaved everywhere but at home (which I saw as a sign of struggling at school to be a "first grader" with "first grade answers"). He says he'd like to HS because it wouldn't be so boring as getting dressed and getting to school every day. He'd like the grade skip because he'd learn new things. When I told him he had done well enough on the test to skip, he sang "I'm good, yeah, I'm good" (which lead to a discussion about arrogance).

I'm not worried so much about college per se, just thinking what long term ramifications are of skipping. It just seems scary. I also don't know how I'll pay for private school.

I have not gone above the principal yet. That was my next step but I couldn't get a meeting before school was out and now everyone is gone for the summer. They won't be back until Aug 11. If I go that route, which I still plan to do regardless of my choice, I don't see anything happening in time to help Pud for fall. It seems unfair to make him sit through 2nd grade (the first half of which is a review of 1st grade) while I meet with the muckety-mucks and try to get changes made.

I guess the way I am looking at it is that I feel too much pressure right now to make a good choice about HS or about advocating through the school district. Putting him in 3rd at the private seems like a decent short term solution while I figure out what to do next. That might mean working with DH to educate him more about what HS is. That might just mean letting things go for the summer (I'm out of town all next week and then we're all gone 2 weeks in August. Unfortunately, SCA starts before we get back from our trip (Pud will be with grandparents so they can take him to school) and the public school starts the Monday after we get back. I feel like I have to make a decision quickly, but maybe I don't. I don't know by when SCA needs a commitment. I guess we could just wait and do something at the last minute, even if that meant he didn't start either school on time.

All in all, I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. I keep telling myself to just let it go but it doesn't seem to be working. Thanks, all, for your comments and for "listening". Maybe I should just let SCA know that I think we'll be doing 3rd grade there and not make a commitment yet. I don't know. I'm very stressed about it and didn't realize how much until I typed this post.

{{{{Hugs}}}} for the stress! I've BTDT, and it's horrible. I'm so sorry you're going through it. Do remember that you're looking for the least-worst option, not perfection. Don't let your own fears of making a mistake make you crazy. If you're doing something for your son, if you're trying your best to do what he needs, then that's enough. Don't wind yourself up trying to be perfect or not make a mistake. Not only is it impossible, it's not necessary. You will make mistakes. All parents do. Just do your best and remember that nothing is irreversible. There may be a cost to reversing a decision, but you can change your mind if what you choose isn't working.

It will be okay!

FYI on the GT teacher: many teachers--GT teachers included--oppose grade skips unconditionally. Have you read "A Nation Deceived"? It's worth a look so that you get the other side of the story, a side backed with research instead of nothing but urban legend and fear. (For example, social skills often IMPROVE in grade-skipped children, since they are placed with kids who are more like true peers rather than age-only peers.) I don't think grade skips are for every HG+ child, but I wouldn't accept that teacher's view as correct either. She sounds like she has an agenda, and it isn't necessarily one that's in Pud's best interests!

You can get a copy of the report for free here: http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/

BTW, the teacher's comment about acceleration vs. challenging is nonsensical, I think. It says to me that she doesn't really understand HG+ kids. Kids who learn things the first time they see them often need both challenge and acceleration, and sometimes they get the challenge through the acceleration.

As for the homeschooling problems: first and foremost, is Pud buying into HSing? Does he want to HS?

I'm thinking it might be time for a heart-to-heart talk with him about his education. If he wants to do Aleks and read what he wants, then there are other things that must be done, too, at least at some point. It's just part of getting an education.

Now, I hesitate to suggest this because I got beaten over the head with it when I was trying to figure out how to make homeschooling work for us, and it annoyed me...but in your case, I think it's possible that you might need to deschool for a bit. What I mean is, if all he wants to do is Aleks and reading, then maybe that's okay for a while. Eventually you'll have to reintroduce the other things he needs to learn, but he doesn't have to get them right now. And if he was bored and frustrated with school last year, then maybe he needs some time to follow his interests and not be dictated to about learning at all. The idea is that once the pressure is off, eventually he'll get his curiosity back about other subjects, and then you can pursue that curiosity with him.

Another thought (for you to accept or ignore as you like): maybe the goal-setting you're doing is the problem.

When we started HSing, I asked DS7, "What do you want to learn?" He listed a bunch of things, and then I did my best to fit our approach to those topics into the traditional school subjects so that they "counted." But as far as he was concerned, he was just doing what he asked to do. As a result, he was very cooperative! Since he learns things so fast, I didn't really worry about mastery. I mean, he's 7. So what if he hasn't totally mastered geometry when we're through with it? He's had exposure to something new and he loves the learning. He'll get more geometry later. The beauty of the spiral structure of virtually all the curriculum out there, not to mention our entire educational system, is that it's fine if they get what they can now and keep moving, because you know they'll get it again later if they need it. That's doubly true of HSing, where you can review or redo whenever you need to, totally following your child's lead.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe you're having trouble and getting rebellion from Pud because you're stressed about HSing and making it harder and more restrictive than it has to be because you're afraid you'll do a bad job. Maybe his rebellion is telling you that you're trying too hard to teach him instead of letting him learn.

(And I can say this because I just had a similar freak-out moment of my own when I got wound up about goals and not doing enough. Lorel pulled me back from my own personal ledge! )

So, what about pulling back on the requirements and goals and just seeing what he accomplishes on his own for a while? I think you might be surprised at what he does.

Just limit his TV and gaming time. That's the one thing that almost all HSers agree on when deschooling! They have to have the time and space to get bored so that they'll come back to learning on their own terms.

As for the piano: does he want to take piano? Has he taken piano before this summer, or is it new?

Hang in there. Keep talking. You'll figure it all out.

As an outsider... I think you just spelled out your husband's objections to HS. Just reading about your struggles with Pud and putting myself in your husbands shoes, I'm thinking, "I don't want my wife going through this stress."

As for what the retired Gifted teacher said, well, use your own judgement on that one. We have a friend who just retired a couple years ago from being an elementary school principal. When we talked to him about GS starting to excel in 1st/2nd grades he said, "Let him be a big fish in a small pond". When he saw GS8 reading Jr High novels last fall, he was a bit taken aback. For the record though, acceleration is not a good choice (yet!) for our GS8.

Squirt wrote:
"But, one of his goals is to learn division. I taught him the basic "it means how many times will x go into y" or "how many 4s does it take to make 12". He got that quickly and did 1 1/2 pages or problems. He now refuses to do any more problems. So, maybe we've met the goal and maybe we haven't. Maybe that's part of the problem - defining what the goals actually mean."

I see the same thing with my DS8. I call him the Concept Kid. He'll start figuring something out, learn it superficially, and is ready to move on. He doesn't want to put in the work to become proficient at it. This alarms me, perhaps unnecessarily. My thinking is generalizing this to when other things become harder - will he always give up and look for the next easy thing to do? Is this a result of lack of challenge? Is this typical 8yr old boy behavior and I'm making too much of it?

Something I read about HSing really struck me. For people who say they can't HS b/c of XYZ, some of those reasons are actually parenting difficulties...which in actuality, need to be dealt with regardless if the kid is in school or not. I think those difficulties can be more hidden b/c the kid is in school all day so there is reduced interaction between parent and child. But some of the difficulties I have w/ my son over getting school-type work done, I see it w/ chores, hygiene, etc ... it's not specific to school work.

Well, what constitutes "proficient"? I would argue that if he understands the concept and can do 1.5 pages of problems (or even a lot less than that, frankly!), he IS proficient at division!

I guess I see some of this as being a problem with us moms. Obviously you want to see a child do enough problems to show that he does, actually, understand what he's doing. But with an HG+ kid, that might not require very many problems.

You know, I had a heck of a time figuring out which level to start DS7 at in Singapore Math because he was teaching himself how to do the problems just from reading them on the placement test. So I ended up starting too low in the books, I think, because I was afraid that even though he passed the test, he didn't really "know" it. Well, the fact is, if he can teach himself to do it by reading the problems, it's probably too simple for him and he can pick up whatever he needs to know as he goes along. I think a big part of the math issues we had a the start of the year were because I was demanding too much drill on problems that were not conceptually challenging enough for DS7. I'm hoping you can learn from my mistake, as I'm trying to do.

ND kids, even MG kids, need so much more practice than these kids do, especially on arithmetic, which is pretty low-concept. Especially if you're homeschooling and can review whenever review is needed, I really don't think you have to worry so much about proficiency or have to drill very much at that basic level with kids this young. Very frequently, they just get it fast!

Please note that I'm not saying no drill ever. But in this context, I think that if a kid can do a whole bunch of division problems the first time out of the gate, he gets division. And maybe rather than fretting about whether he's doing enough work, maybe we should be taking it as a sign that he understands and we can move on.

P.S. You snuck that last post in on me, but I agree. One thing about homeschooling is that it throws parenting problems into much starker relief. Happily, it also gives you more opportunities to solve those problems.

I must say this is where Montessori worked really great for us. We taught him the concepts over the dinner and they eventually made him do the practice in school

I too am not really sure where to start with Singapore Math. We will probably spend first few months filling up gaps and skipping over the rest of the material.

What I mean by proficient is say for example: He can 56-18 veerryy slowly mentally..... if he just did a few mental problems per day, he could do it more quickly and efficiently. But since he can do it, he's done with it. I try to make most things fun, but sometimes it's just quicker and easier if he'd just do it so we can move on to something else.

Also, even though our district uses Everyday Math which is supposed to be big on mental math and alternative strategies, his teacher drilled the standard algorithm. So whereas he used to see 56-18, way back when he was 6, and think 56-10-6-2, he does the standard trading algorithm mentally but he can't hold all the numbers in his head. I was taught the standard algorithms and always thought I was poor at mental math. Since doing Singapore Math and Rightstart, I'm so much better at mental math!

I have a post in my head to write up about Math, PS, HS, pushing, ASing (Afterschooling) but we're off to the lake to throw rocks so I'll try to get it written up tonight.

Of course, for homeschoolers with HG+ kids, those "legal" proficiency requirements are pretty useless. I mean, the requirements for math and reading for 1st grade were--to DS7 and to me with my skewed-high view--almost pointless.

So maybe I should just expect DS7 to be proficient at a higher grade level, right?

Well, does a 6yo (with a working memory that's not all that spectacular) really have to know his times tables as fast as an ND 10yo? I voted no this year, even though his other math skills were around the 9-10yo level. When he's 10, he will be required to be as speedy with his math recall as a 10yo. (And I suspect he'll get there well before then on his own.)

I guess what I'm saying is that some things you go with grade-level proficiency and some with age-level, I think. This is, to me, one of the great beauties of homeschooling. To some extent, we parents get to decide what constitues proficiency, within certain limits.

But that flexible definition does make determining proficiency more complicated. In fact, at a homeschooling meeting for parents of HG+ kids that I recently attended, there was a rather interesting discussion about how we know if we're doing enough. Some were really worried that they were allowing their kids to underachieve.

I confess, when it comes to proficiencies, I tend to go with the "what's required for his age" level, and then we look for fun things that will challenge him and nurture his love of learning. I totally understand the fear that this approach would be encouraging DS7 to underachieve. I dabble in the fear myself from time to time. But it's hard for me to think that we're not doing enough when he's covering multiple years' worth of material in only a few months and loving it! I mean, if he's happy, he's learning, he's progressing, and he's making more than a year's worth of progress in a year's worth of time, I feel like we're doing just fine.

To me, if there's no joy in the work, then DS7's proficiency at something doesn't really matter. At 10 or 12 or so, I suspect I'll get more worried about filling in gaps. But he's 7! He's 3+ years ahead in pretty much all subjects! How many gaps could there be, really!?! Ya' know?

Sorry, Dottie! We crossposted, so you made the point I made about your post. I hate it when that happens!

Squirt,

In your position, I think I would let him read and do Aleks over the summer and then start 3rd at the private school in the fall.

The retired GT teacher doesn't know Pud. The school that tested him thinks he should skip. Pud wants to skip. Those are huge arguments in favor of skipping which are not negated by the GT teacher's opinion. You already tried letting the teacher challenge him. Didn't work. If your school's gifted program is like ours, don't hold your breath hoping for challenge there.

I understand your feelings of trepidation--just look back a few months to see how I wrestled with DS' skip. The skip has worked beautifully for DS so far. I'm sure it's not a permanent solution, but it's good for now.

Cathy

Thanks everyone. I'm going to send him to private school in 3rd grade and see how it goes. Although I think HS might be a better answer sometime down the road, this works for now. It's hard to look at something "just for today" and not consider it a long term answer. Money might also dictate at some point that we HS.

I think you might also be right about deschooling. The school year was stressful on all of us. I think I took it the hardest because I was the one trying to get things accelerated for him while also trying to support the teacher.

Thanks for all the support and all the different perspectives.

Glad to help, and I'm glad you reached a decision that will work for you.

I think the trying to decide is the worst part!

I hope it works out well. Keep us posted

I am glad you made your decision. If you are like me you probably spent 90% of your time thinking about it. It's hard to consider all the options especially when there is no clear winner. I think 3rd grade in the private school sounds like a good option.

Good luck

Congratulations on making a decision. And I totally agree, it is painful making these decisions for the short term. But I've come to realize that is what parenting a GT kid is all about!

Congrats on the decision, that has to feel good. I'm glad you are having a good summer and wish DS well in the new school. Is it crazy to think that this school rollercoaster thing will start back up in about 6 weeks(for us anyway)?

Didn't summer vacation just start, like, yesterday?!?!?!?

Is that all? 6 weeks? Sheesh!

Just two thoughts on the division question.

(1) Devise a test, if he passes, great. But
make it timed and difficult.

(2) If you really think he needs more work at
division, introduce higher concepts that require
division. For example (a) modular arithmetic,
(b) polynomial division, or (c) division with
fractions/exponents. That ought to be conceptual
enough for anyone :), and if he gets polynomial
division, he gets division. Though I'd do
modular arithmetic first.

I like that idea, thanks for posting! I am not intuitive at math, it's not my strength, though both DD's seem to have interest and talent in that area. DD8 seems proficient at long division. I've given her fractions and geometry to work on, but once she's mastered multiplication and division of fractions, wasn't really sure what to get into next. She is already bored(maybe bored not the right choice, tired, she just doesn't like it all anymore) of mult. and div.
I think I'll skip the timed test, but will look into your suggestions.
This board is so great for picking up ideas!
I know a lot of posters go higher up in concept and jump around. I'm just not that comfortable. I have had her gain a solid level then go to the next. Boring and laborious! I just don't have a comfort level and am afraid to make a mistake in helping her develop math talent. I think we will look into a tutor soon.

OH incogneato - are you my long lost sister? I'm having the exact same issues w/ DS. I've always been a year behind him with math. I took someone's advice not to teach him math b/c he'd be bored in school - well he was bored anyway, and i've spent years trying to play catch up. I'm just looking at math curriculum today. The next level up - he is conceptually already through more than half of it and we haven't even started. And there are many, many concepts in Level E (two levels up) that he is ready for or needs in his everyday life.

Glad that helped, and sorry to confuse your child's gender, I got mixed up in various people's discussions. Another thing to consider is thinking about the long division algorithm as a computational thinking exercise. Have your child write out the algorithm abstractly with variables instead of numbers and then see if you can solve problems with it when you plug in numbers like a computer program. Or if you're up to it actually write a computer program together that does long division only using simpler operations. But it is tricky to do this sort of thing if you don't have a strong math background, so some help might be handy here. I'm a cs prof, so I'm always interested in ways to get students understanding computational concepts earlier in
life...

All of these things will help cement concepts and increase abstract thought, which is fun, but there *is* some benefit to drilling in stupid, boring problems (mainly speed). It might be useful to teach a bit of a science lesson on how the brain works. If your daughter understands how practicing division problems (and practicing other skills) builds faster pathways between the neurons in her brain, so that she can do the problems without as much conscious thought, she might be more receptive to that kind of learning.

Hey, all, I'm just back from a week in Wyoming. It is beautiful there! I'm catching up on some of these posts and am wondering what Modular Arithmetic is? Curious, could you write out an example of what you mean by "long division algorithm as a computational thinking exercise"?

By the way, I'm feeling pretty good about the decision to go with the private school. Now to just sort out some details and scheduling issues (and money, of course!).

Here's an article about modular arithmetic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_arithmetic

You can also think of it in terms of remainders. For example,

5 = 2 mod 3 because 5/3=1 remainder 2.

Welcome back, squirt!

I think of time as the easy, English-major-friendly example of mod: the 24 hour clock is a sort of mod system. We don't say 23:00 (unless we're in the military), we say 11:00. 23:00 = 11:00 mod 12.

Does that help?

Now I know why I went into Immunology......

I have no idea what you mean, said the English major...

I switched my major from biology to math because I don't like memorizing stuff.

Interesting...I don't like memory stuff either but I went into Immunology. I guess it depends on the field.

Well, for what's it's worth, I was a Computer Science major with a Math Minor!!

I approach this question by moving on when my eldest understands the concept and can do a small series of problems without any help from me. I typically make increase the difficulty of the problems in the series. This helps catch little things, like place value in long division or remembering sign issues when moving numbers across the equals sign.

Then I'll give him a few of the same types of problems a week later. Can he still do them? If yes, great. If not, I go over them with him, which usually involves relatively quick reminders (but not always).

Then I'll do a review after maybe 2 weeks, and so it goes, with the time periods increasing.


Val

Agreed, Val. Review is different than drill, and review is important!

Exactly. You said that very nicely.

What I'm not wild about are the exercises where the kids have to do 100 "multiplication facts (6*7)" or "division facts (72/9)" every day in 4th/5th grade. How do kids stomach that stuff? I feel so sorry for them. Why can't they just memorize 6*7 etc. through applications in other areas, like long division or multuplying fractions?

Val

Two thoughts.

First, I pray a time comes that every summer families in our shoes look forward to school like "normal" people and fret over where to buy school supplies. It is sad that the families of such gifted kids cannot just "go" to school and get an emotionally safe and academically challenging. It would be nice to think - MAN remember 5 or 10 years ago when ever year was a fight or a painful decision of which imperfect option.

Second, here is my thought about the retired gt teacher... There is a page some where in Ruf's Losing Our Minds that describes a story when a mom expressed her child's ability to the teacher. but the teacher didn't get it or believe it. she later apologized to the family. Sometimes I wonder if we are overly concerned (I say this not having entered a public school yet) - and other times I think people just don't get it. You feel like saying 'hey you know that kid that was on the news for graduating college at 14' ... why can't you believe it doesn't just happen in a nameless town ... it could be standing and staring at your belly button right now.