Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments How many is too many when it comes to AP?

One of the AP scholars in our state was honored recently for taking 16 AP courses and earning a top score on each exam. 16 just seems mind boggling to me. I went to a top high school in the 1980's and the top students generally only took several AP courses and there were certainly way less than 10 courses total available.

How many is too many?

How many is too many? Too many is when a student is stressed out rather than stretched out. The really important thing with AP classes is that the student become accustomed to being challenged so they don't get hit like an axe between the eyes when they go to college. The secondary benefit is, if the test score is high enough, college credits transferred. Keep your eye on college prep though rather than the credits. I remember my eldest getting a D+ in AP calc. but a 4 on the test when he was a Soph. in HS. He learned how to work hard in that class and that was the most important think he learned in all of HS.

I would think that chronic insomnia or panic attacks would be excellent indications of this.

I'll agree that it's pretty good to get things like this out of the way early.

I don't think I start collecting D+'s until my junior/senior year of college.

Granted, I think I slept through AP calculus and got the highest grade in the class, so it all depends on when you hit some sort of wall.

For me, I *think* it was differential equations that first hit me hard, but I could be wrong.

The State AP Scholar is for one male and one female in each state with the best combo of number of AP tests taken & average score. There are always a few kids that go crazy with APs, so I can see a handful of kids taking 16 APs.

Our HS offers 22 AP courses. Eldest took five AP courses and five AP Tests (though for one AP test she did not take the course, another she took the course but not the test). DH laughed when the College Board sent her an AP Scholar with Distinction certificate - he thinks stuff like that should be reserved for truly exceptional students.

I think five APs is okay and probably the average for good students in our district. My 10th grader is taking one AP test this year and will take four next year. Probably will take another three or four senior year for a total of eight or nine tests, though she is more serious with academics than DD18.

My DD should have started taking AP classes a lot sooner than her junior year. Well. I mean, she effectively skipped 10th grade, but still-- we'd have been a lot better off (er-- or she would, anyway) if she'd been taking the higher level classes (beyond "honors") to begin with as a freshman.

She'll graduate having taken 5 of them and aced them all-- but without having taken the exams for any of them because she simply doesn't care about racking up college credits for the work. We agree completely-- now, she's taking a couple that overlap as dual enrollment coursework at a local community college, actually, three total, I think.

Anyway. Individual students, individual answer. If DD could have, I'd have been tickled for her to have taken 8-12 AP classes through high school. I think that would have been a much better fit for her, myself-- but she really only had the opportunity to take 6 or 7, max, if only because that's all that is offered regularly.

A friend's son took over 16 AP exams, a few years back. He won a national prestigious award. His mother didn't want him to take as many AP classes as he did, it was all student driven. What the kid did not do was take 16 AP classes. Ones does not NEED to take a class to take the AP exam, and a number of them he just studies for the test. The kid loved it, he went to Cal Tech and is very happy there.

That said it is fairly normal these days for top honors kids at my sons High School to take 8-10 AP classes/exams. Starting with AP US in sophomore year. And then during the junior/senior year taking almost nothing but AP's. Top students typically take two English AP exams, US History, AP Government (semester), AP Economics (semester), AP Calculus and either AP Stats or AP Computer Science. At least 2 of AP Biology, AP Chemistry and AP Physics. And possibly one or more of AP World History, AP Music Theory, AP Psychology, or AP Art History depending on interest.

It's a different world out there in High School. The 8-10 above seem to many too me, and I already know my son won't be taking hat many. But I do expect that he will at least take 4, and probably more.

And the answer is YES the kids are extremely stressed out. Many of these kids are doing nothing but studying. Two of my best friends have high school juniors, and neither of them will have a life until AP exams are over in May. Some take the class without taking the exam particularly in senior year where the tests aren't needed for college apps, and the school they are going to limits the number of AP credits they transfer anyway.

Any n where n >0 given how they are dumbed down busywork apparently designed to suck out any remaining intellectual curiousity and consume a teenager's every breathing moment.

Study and just take the exam is what I'll be telling my DD

All I can offer is our direct experience, which suggests that the AP version of the class is often better designed and more coherent than the other options available, at least without going outside of the high school, I mean.

Hardly the level of busywork described by madeinuk... and (again, IME) not exactly "half the pace" of the real college class, either. At least not all of them. Maybe some of them are like that, I don't know-- but the thing is, colleges sometimes offer a "one term" class in just 9 weeks, if they're on quarters, whereas other institutions might offer the same course over sixteen weeks. Nobody seems to think that the latter is "not college level" because it comes at a slightly slower pace.

Honestly, I'm not getting where the hate vibe is coming from here... Puzzles me, since AP may not be perfect... but still, it's a lot better than a lot what ELSE is available during high school.

Yes, the volume is a lot. But honestly... it's the only thing that has taught my DD any kind of work ethic at all-- she doesn't dare get TOO far behind in an AP class, and let me assure everyone that she feels no compunction there otherwise. (oy)


What I don't understand is why colleges will offer credit for the exams. I mean, there's already CLEP, so what the heck is AP for??


DD is definitely not "stressed out" by the workload-- it feels FINE to her. More than fine, in fact. She is the one that insisted on adding a third AP class this term-- late, no less. It was apparently because she was bored and wanted the GPA bump from the weighted course.

I'm not sure that taking 16 AP classes is the same thing as taking 16 AP tests. All four years of my high school English classes were called AP English, but there was only one test. I would have had the same approach for math if I hadn't dropped Calculus senior year... I'd have only taken the one AP test for Calc, though I'd have had three straight years of AP math classes (9th grade Geometry was called Honors). That's 7 of your 16 right there. For school districts that split Calc into 2 classes, you could get half the requirement in only two subjects you were going to be taking anyway.

The next tier down was called College Prep in my school district. The CP kids did waaaaaayyyy more hours of homework than I did.

To answer that you really need to understand the history of the AP exams. (See the AP exam web site.) Originally, AP tests were exams that the college board created to test if a student mastered college level material. And a list of what information the students would be tested on. Individual schools were left to implement this as they see fit. As the years have gone on the college board has included material in how to design an AP course. And these tests have included more and more information. There originally wasn't any rule as to how a high school implemented the class, although that has changed.

AP tests have a flaw that they don't really equal specific college classes, partly because not all colleges implement these subjects in the same way. They are in the middle of re-writing the curriculum to many of the popular test for various reasons. Supposedly they have had the help of U.S. colleges & universities in working on these changes. This is the first year for the new AP Biology Test, and next year the first year for the AP U.S. History test for example. The reasons for this are that many of them were a mile wide and an inch deep. Take US History for example that is supposed to cover the entire 400+ years of US History.

In addition not all universities accept all AP's as credit, some expect that you will have taken them just to get accepted. It is not a perfect system. I am anxious to see how the new changes affect the AP tests.

Edited to add: In order to get college credit one has to take the AP EXAM and get a 3,4, or 5 on it. This is ONE exam, not multiple exams all year. College classes usually have at least 2 if not 3 exams. One year of AP is supposed to be equivalent to one semester at college, but that varies depending on subject and university.

Many of the tests used to be a mile wide and an inch deep. (Supposedly many of these in the process of a rewrite.) This means instead of studying a subject at depth like one should at a college level, kids were simply memorizing huge amounts of data just in case it was on the test. This is the first year of the AP Biology test and the students no longer have to study the "organ" of the day.

While out school district only offers about 8 total AP courses, the local community college is directly across the street from the high school and the school district simply pays for students to take desired classes there when they've exhausted the curriculum of a given subject matter. I've found I very much like that arrangement as it requires students to better prepare themselves, providing their own transportation, finding parking, additional scheduling conflicts, time management, becoming accustomed to unfamiliar professors and students.....sound more like college?

Sounds like a good solution to me.

But, at my school AP classes give one a +1 grade for the GPA and a community college class doesn't. If you are playing the admission to university game, an A in the AP class helps the GPA and the community college class doesn't.

Agree with BlueMagic. That is the same situation that my DD found herself in this year. She was given the option of doing mostly college courses this year, and chose to take AP which are dual enrollment instead, simply because of the weighted GPA.

Evidently the local college thinks that there is nothing wrong with the AP coursework, though-- they were happy to give 2 quarters' worth of credit for the English and the math both.

For some AP courses/exams, there isn't a "college equivalent" course. AP Physics B is like that. The coverage is simply too much-- no ONE YEAR course at the college level covers all of what is in it. Yes, it's possible to cram an inch deep and a mile wide and get by on the exam, but truthfully, DD and her best friend both actually learned the material that well. She didn't bother taking the AP exam, but he easily rocked a 5.

So that's where I'm coming from when I say that actually, these classes CAN be a really great fit for an HG+ student, since they move at a pace and over SO much material that nobody else can keep up with it. But it's a pace that is probably as close to "ideal" as a kid like mine is going to get, short of college. So especially for young accelerants in particular, AP is a pretty sweet thing, I'd say-- less demand on still-developing EF (unlike a college course) and less damage long term if they make mistakes (more assignments, and let's face it, high school isn't college in terms of transcripts).

That vetting done by College Board may have hurt some very high quality AP coursework, but at the same time, I think it also means that ANY student who takes an AP class is at least assured of some minimal standard that passes muster. TEACHERS have to be 'certified' in the subject by College Board, as well. This is particularly important, IMO, in Math and Science.

I tend to agree. Because the College Board approves courses by looking at the syllabus, it is rather like judging a book by its cover. The actual course curriculum and content does not necessarily meet any criteria for quality, depth, rigor, or relevance. The College Board website pages for AP provide a list of recommended text books, facilitating self-study.

When a student self-studies or homeschools in preparation for an AP exam, families may be on their own for getting the student scheduled to sit for the AP exam. If a parent creates a transcript for the self-study course, and when a student refers to their self-study, they may not call it an "AP" course as that designation may only come from College Board; rather they may call it prep for AP exam.

Students may also take CLEP exams to earn college credit at some colleges/universities.

I see the AP classes being dumbed down to make them more accessible as the notion that only strong students need apply appears to be an anathema these days. I can only see it getting worse by the time that my DD takes them in six years or so. I am more inclined to put the energy in IB classes instead.

These will likely be far more useful when DD is applying to European universities - I have just about given up on US ones. I would be fine paying full tuition if I were genuinely supporting excellent students from home environments with limited means but that's isn't what I see.

Painting with a broad brushing know but I see the standards being applied differently by race which flies in the face of everything I was brought up to believe - that all should be treated on their merits alone. Frankly, I think that it is insulting and degrading for these students to expect less from them.

A student who is on the fence regarding taking an additional AP course and exam can look at the schedule of AP exam dates (I assume they are published well in advance), since students do worse on AP exams taken close together:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w18436
The Impact of Time Between Cognitive Tasks on Performance: Evidence from Advanced Placement Exams
Ian Fillmore, Devin G. Pope
NBER Working Paper No. 18436
Issued in October 2012

In many education and work environments, economic agents must perform several mental tasks in a short period of time. As with physical fatigue, it is likely that cognitive fatigue can occur and affect performance if a series of mental tasks are scheduled close together. In this paper, we identify the impact of time between cognitive tasks on performance in a particular context: the taking of Advanced Placement (AP) exams by high-school students. We exploit the fact that AP exam dates change from year to year, so that students who take two subject exams in one year may have a different number of days between the exams than students who take the same two exams in a different year. We find strong evidence that a shorter amount of time between exams is associated with lower scores, particularly on the second exam. Our estimates suggest that students who take exams with 10 days of separation are 8% more likely to pass both exams than students who take the same two exams with only 1 day of separation.

I understand what you're saying and yes, if you're playing a game of class rank and GPA, then I suppose you'd be majorly concerned about weighted grades, however, if you're more concerned about actually preparing your child for college, I'd argue that the college classes are much more beneficial. Rarely with GT students is their intellectual ability or prior course work their biggest downfall in college, much more often is time management, organization, unfamiliar surroundings, new expectations, etc. Items that taking college classes at a local college are more likely to help with.

Class rank and GPA are over rated and everyone here knows it, as do many colleges. Do some colleges still use them heavily for entrance? Some yes, others seek a well rounded student who has challenged themselves in many arenas. Once you've got entrance, your prior GPA and class rank mean beans but your personal experience and how it affects your college years means a great deal and has a lasting impression. So I guess it's up to each parent to decide whether they want to play the GPA / class rank game with emphasis on college applications, or focus on actual experience that more closely reflects the conditions their child will be facing in college.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with AP classes, I'm thankful for them, I'm simply saying that I grow tired of people's over emphasis on GPA and class rank and everyone I know looks back and thinks themselves silly for such emphasis. If you want to focus on AP classes, wonderful, however, do so for the right reasons.

My daughter will be going to what seems to be a pressure cooker of a high school, and the kids take tons of AP classes. She will be (hopefully, waiting on acceptance) in the International Spanish Academy which means she will take AP Spanish Language, AP Spanish Lit., AP English, AP US History, AP Govt and Econ., maybe AP European History? They start right away freshman year with AP Human Geography. I think she will enjoy those classes. It will be harder to determine what to do about the math and science. I don't want her to be overloaded, particularly in areas she isn't passionate about. My impression is that they are for sure not dumbed down, nor are they drudgery, and that the teachers in general are very engaging. But there is only so much time in the day and she will also be doing orchestra and theater, so I suspect she will decide on her own not to take AP math and science as she progresses.

I agree with you re: class rank and college applications. But for me, AP classes with bright same-age peers were for more interesting and engaging than classes I took at community colleges, which were of the type that made me want to stab myself with a pencil. I think that the AP classes will be appropriately challenging and stimulating for my daughter in a way that I do not believe community college classes would be.

We had the opposite experience with our eldest DS. By taking college classes in community college, he was finally surrounded by more mature (relative I realize) people he was more comfortable with being around. The variety of classes offered at the community college obviously far exceeded the AP class listings as well so he could focus on his particular interests rather than having them being so limited by AP.

Agreed. Have you seen the book Please Stop "Helping" Us?

The marketing and the lived experience may, in many cases, differ.

Agreed!

Agreed!

I know class rank & GPA are overrated. And yes I would prefer to completely ignore it but it's a reality if one wants to get into a competitive university. Locally I notice more kids take college classes during the summer, because they can be difficult to fit in during the school year. I am certainly open to my son taking classes at college instead of at the high school.

But I am also not entirely sure community classes are necessary better than AP classes at teaching college readiness. I think it entirely depends on the curriculum, teaching style, grading style, and what peers are in either class. And this depends on the quality of the teaching in the H.S. or the college. Many of my DS14 in 9th grade classes already depend more heavily on test grades than some community college classes for example.

I agree, Bluemagic. It's easy to SAY that you won't "play the game" but quite another when it means major tuition waivers on the line, or (more) elite college admission.

Also agree with Deacongirl-- my DD has been able to figure out in a hurry which of her AP classmates are HG/HG+, (and they her) simply by who seems to be ENJOYING the class and not finding it overwhelming, etc. It took her exactly 15 minutes to make the same determination in an honors COLLEGE course when she visited the program she'll be attending in the fall, too. There is a range of ability in any group educational setting-- and most HG+ kids are going to find themselves near the top of it either way. Yes, the EF skills may not measure up to that cognitive mark, but I'm not sure how increased DEMAND on EF at a younger age really accomplishes much. I suspect it may depend on the individual teen-- some of them can "rise to the expectations" and some of them might be demoralized by failing to do so adequately.



Those are her peers-- not the ones point-grubbing, whining, and moaning about the workload.

While I personally probably prefer the IB model, it's not a reality for a lot of us who live in areas which are non-urban.

Agreed. Which is why I don't necessarily agree with credit-by-exam for AP.

The marketing and the lived experience may, in many cases, differ. [quote=indigo]

Well, I am basing my expectations not on marketing, but knowing teachers, my daughter's peers, former and current students at the high school, and their parents.

I think it just depends on the student. Contrary to many posters, we've had a great experience with AP classes at our local HS. It offers 23 official AP courses (audited by AP), although those can lead to more than 23 AP tests (for example, studio art can be customized for the 2D, 3D or drawing AP). Both my dds found that many were just as difficult as the classes they encountered in college; when older dd had to retake introductory biology, because that was her major, she felt that it was easy compared to her AP Bio class. We liked AP classes because of the peers. In our area, the gifted/smart kids gravitate towards AP classes as a rule, and the more average students take the community college classes, although I'm sure there are exceptions. DS will take his first AP course next year in 9th grade (AP World History) and I envision about 10 overall. Too much would be if he couldn't continue to do running, music, chess, math, etc... in addition to schoolwork, or when he feels stressed out. But what we found was that these classes were not necessarily a ton more work; they were just the right level. And as far as the weighting/college "game"- well, yeah, we do play that. We've got four kids who need college tuition. As far as we can tell, colleges are still paying a LOT of attention to test scores and GPA. One dd got full tuition and the other got nearly half (and finished in 3 years), in part due to AP/GPA/test scores. Now they are out of school and debt free, so again, I'd like to ignore that stuff, but in our case, it definitely helped!

This sounds like my daughter's school. She is also hoping to get AP credit so that she can have the intro. classes out of the way and dive right into what she is really interested in in college. Right now she has plans for a double major plus a minor haha! Or plans to graduate in 3 yrs. Either way, I believe the AP courses she will take will benefit her in many ways.

It is interesting that "audit" is a word which can mean many things to many people, depending upon one's background and experiences. For example, to an accountant or CPA, an "audit" may mean a complete review: The IRS "audits" selected tax returns. To a student "audit" may mean taking a class without making a payment or receiving credit: it is full exposure to course materials.

In the case of AP courses, "audit" essentially means pre-approval at a very high level, an overview based upon an institution's course syllabus. This does not delve into the curricular content to assess quality, depth, rigor, or relevance. http://www.collegeboard.com/html/apcourseaudit/

AP courses and AP exams are separate (but related) educational opportunities:
Students may take an AP course and choose to register and sit for the associated AP exam;
Students may take an AP course and choose NOT to register and sit for the associated AP exam;
Students may study on their own and choose to register and sit for the associated AP exam.

College Board owns the rights to the designation "AP"; Only courses audited by the College Board may be called AP; It is my understanding that any other courses or materials utilized by students to study for an AP exam (for example, studies undertaken by home schooled students) may NOT be transcripted as an "AP course" but may be called "prep for AP exam".

I was trying to differentiate between what Dude referenced - high schools having lots of courses called AP, and specific AP-approved classes for which there is a test. In my kids' HS, a student is expected to take an AP test for any course which is called an AP course. A student can take additional AP tests (say my kid learns Latin or Japanese at home), but if my son takes ten AP classes, he is expected to take ten AP tests.

Just curious - how many of your kids' school districts pay for AP tests? I hadn't even realized it was an option in some schools, but when my dds went to college, a number of their friends had taken AP tests paid by the district.

Also, is it a big deal in your district for students to NOT take the test after taking the class? My older dd, who had anxiety, didn't take any AP tests (although she took the classes) and our school gave us a very hard time. Other schools, though, seem fine with kids taking them or not taking them.

I have to say that whatever I have written here on this is based on the current trend of declining scholarship and viewing AP classes through a prism that shows them as 6-8 years away.

Obviously HK has had very good success with her daughter taking AP classes and she has the benefit of experience with AP classes.

I don't think that AP classes should be college level (to me in shows the remedial level of some colleges) because I think college should be harder and that ideally an AP will at least prepare a kid for the rigours of an academic college. Perhaps this is why universities like MIT do not give credit form them.

The point about learning to suck it up, produce and develop EF is well taken. I never got this as a kid and I saw my DD learning stuff so fast that she was not seeing learning as something that needed to be worked at.

This is why I have put her into an AoPs class - it is way more rigourous than anything she has done before. She gets it and understands how to do the 'challenge problems' but there is a lot of text to cover, especially in the worked examples. The first couple of weeks were a chore but she is now adjusting and needing a lot less time to go through the book work and do the problems. So far, the experiment is yielding the expected results!

If AP classes do maintain their rigour then I will encourage my DD to take some but somehow I do not see them on a trajectory that is climbing in that regard.

I don't know what the rules are in my school. I do know that students must pay for the exams themselves, there are reduced prices for those who are eligible. Since it's something that costs money, the school can not force a student to take it. And I do hear of seniors not taking exams. Given the high rate of 5's at this high school, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some teachers recommend students who are struggling in the class take a pass on the test.

There must be some misunderstanding, because I didn't intend to make such a distinction. There was an AP English track that lasted all four years of high school, and ended with an AP test. There was an AP math track that likewise ended with an AP test, though as far as I know that was only the AP Calculus test, because I don't remember being offered one for Trig/Pre-calc or Algebra II. This was many, many years ago.

So basically, while there wasn't a 1:1 relationship between AP classes and AP tests in every subject, every class called AP was directed towards preparing you for an AP test.

Sorry-my poor wording. All I really meant to say is that our HS offers 23 courses that end with an AP test. There are other courses that put you on the "AP track," but they're not called AP until the specific class that ends with an AP test.

Wow - love the varied viewpoints and experiences!

Just for clarification, the AP scholar in my original post took 16 AP credentialed courses and received top scores on 16 AP exams. It is my understanding that top score means 5 although a long time ago my college accepted a score of 4 but only if you have at least 4 AP courses plus 4 AP exams from an acceptable list (not all AP subjects are created equal). My use of the term AP course is in line with momtofour's post rather than the AP subject track described by Dude. Anyhow, I was astounded because 16 is a major commitment as she could have only taken a maximum total of 32 courses during high school and there are quite a few non-AP prerequisites (pre-calc & lower, "regular" GT sciences, etc.) and requirements (fine arts, music, PE, health, etc.)

Ultimately, it will be up to my children to decide how many and which courses they want to study. In line with the reality of college applications and just general educational fit, I think that it is likely that they will take many more AP courses than I did in my day although 16 will be unlikely!