Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy How and when to advocate at school?

Our 5 yo is going to start kindergarten soon. We just completed private school admission process, and got accepted at two schools. One of them is able to accommodate highly gifted children (we saw it in their classroom) but we are hesitant to send him there because the school seems to be in unstable state. So we are sending him to another one, that is not targeting GT, but is progressive and we think respect the children; however they insist in not doing "vertical differentiation" but will do "horizontal differentiation". Basically it means the same grade level stuff will be given to each child, but more advanced child will receive somewhat more difficult/enriched grade level stuff. I don't know how this works.

We talked to our psychologist, and she estimated he is around 3.5 standard deviations above the mean for VSI (he hit the ceiling, so she analyzed his raw scores), which probably means at least 4 SD in one subtest. And that is when she ran out of materials..

One of my worry is that our child is going to just comply and not show his true abilities, and then underperform over time. I have a few questions:
1) When do you tell teachers that you have a high ability child (especially in an area where many children are GT)? Do you wait until you see problems? How do we avoid being seen as tiger parents (we are not..)?
2) Should we work on more advanced material with the child at home in order to figure out his abilities, or is this just digging a deeper hole for ourselves as he will further diverge from his peers? We are not big into acceleration, but we do not want to put ceiling over him either.
3) How do you work with a school that doesn't offer more than grade level, but willing to enrich grade level stuff?

As a side note, we haven't completely gotten over the shock of the school admission process. Three schools that we thought would be easy to get in, because his scores surpassed their requirements by a good bit, declined us, and one of them didn't even waitlist us. The same school accepted a friend whose score didn't make it into GT range and whose parents were hesitating in applying as they didn't think their child was gifted. This school was marketed as a school for the GT population. That child is a good child, but our son is very even tempered and has no social issues, coming from a great feeder pre-K school, had great playdates and parents interview, and great references. Now some parents (including parents from the GT schools) told us that these GT schools actually avoid kids whose scores were above 2 SD because they would be harder to accommodate. If that is the case, where do our children go? Is this going to be the case from now on up to high school? How do you all do this?

Still figuring how to navigate this...

Many parents have reported the same experience.
You mentioned that one of the schools to which your child was accepted "is able to accommodate highly gifted children (we saw it in their classroom) but we are hesitant to send him there because the school seems to be in unstable state." Are you comfortable sharing (or privately reflecting on) the "unstable state"... for example, is it a new start-up... a small school... or some similar "growing pains"... or has a serious concern arisen in the community such as impropriety of a teacher toward a student?

The opportunity to be in a school which "gets" your child and would accommodate his academic growth, and where he may meet intellectual peers with whom he may find things in common, bond, and form meaningful friendships... may be worth working diligently to help stabilize a gifted school.

It varies depending upon schooling options available in each area. If there is a viable gifted school option, helping to strengthen it may ultimately take less effort than years of advocacy with a school unprepared for children with your son's level of gifted, and where he may not find true peers.

Here is a roundup of crowd-sourced advocacy treads, posts, links and information: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....y_Advocacy_as_a_Non_Newt.html#Post183916

Sorry, I don't have as much time as I need to fully respond but the biggest thing that jumps out at me is...

How would your school horizontally enrich a child who is working several years (or even a year) above grade level? For example, when my DS8 was in first grade he was working about 3 year levels ahead in maths and literacy... how could horizontal enrichment of first grade material have been enough? He got both extended both ways, and even with that we was capable of learning even more at school than he did!

I would really insist the school explains this you before you start.

Thanks to both of you for the responses so far. It is a lonely world out here!

The school is going through growing pains, we otherwise like the school and the teachers we met. But we want to see where they end up in say two years time, because if for some reason they don't survive (we might be just too paranoid/pessimistic here), we will end up with no private school, and I might have to leave my job to homeschool him, which I don't plan to do yet.

We are a bit apprehensive about telling the non-GT school that accepted us that our son is highly gifted, because we are afraid of stirring the pot and ending up with no school. This school is very well respected, and apart from the no vertical differentiation issue, it is a darling school that fits our family philosophy for education.

So I am guessing my base case for the next two years, is to work with the school and see what problems we get (or not) but that again doesn't allay our concern that he might not get to show his real abilities. Also our son's scores are more "normally gifted" in areas other than VSI, so they might be a good fit in other areas, just not in math. I am also assuming it is much easier to support differentiation in reading as it doesn't require 1:1. I may be able to hire a math tutor or tutor him myself at home if we want to test his math abilities, but I am apprehensive that he might then further diverge from his peers in math and get bored at school.

He has not received any formal instruction on math and reading both at home and school, our pre-K focuses on kindergarten readiness and social skills. But as a result we have not tested where he'd be in math. All we know is that he is a crazy lego guy, with design complexity years ahead of his age. We have read nurture shock also, and we are thus apprehensive about interpreting test results as high giftedness before we test his real limits in formal math instruction; though our psychologist told us that at this score level, the giftedness is real as the barrier to get that kind of score is very high. Also there is an incidence of high giftedness in our family.

My meandering experiences have taught me that schools don't tend to work for HG+ kids for more than three years or so. Many others here have said the same thing over the years. Well, some schools might, but they're probably the ones designed with HG+ kids in mind to begin with.

My other random observation is that if a school is telling you "horizontal differentiation only," there's a high risk that they don't understand HG+ students (or even know that levels of giftedness exist). If this is the case, you may end up tearing your hair out in a couple of years when your second grader, who is doing, say, long division or working on fractions with you, comes home with his seventh worksheet in a row asking him to do basic addition (as in, 6+8). I say this because "horizontal differentiation" can be a code word for "more of the same, with the emphasis on more."

What are your precise concerns about the school that gets HG+ students? Has it been around for a while or is it new? Have you asked the people who run it about their outlook for its future?

Personally, my feeling is that you're in a relatively strong position. You have acceptances from two schools and both of them presumably want your money. If it was me, I would ask each school a lot of specific questions about how they'll help your child work at a level that matches his current skills and his abilities. I'd make a list and look for specific answers. If they waffle or give vague answers about how well their students do, beware. Also, if a school is put off by your son's test scores, remember that they'll probably also be put off if you try to advocate for him when he's a student there.

Thanks Val for sharing the perspective!
Unfortunately we are not in strong position.. The non-GT school is in high demand amongst local parents and have a waitlist. I know many parents from our preschool will jump and take our spot if we leave it. And the GT school also had waitlist they had started contacting (they only held our spot until last Fri). But they said we could try to transfer next year if we get into differentiation trouble at the non-GT school. The school that has HG+ students is only a few years old, and rumor has it that they were at risk of closing quite recently (maybe 2-3 years ago), and we know their head might leave once the contract ends in two years. I guess we want to see where they are in a couple years, and if they are still there and we need it, then we could try transferring. We are willing to help the school with our resources, but more inclined to help it to move from stage B->C rather than A->B.

It is killing me that most GT schools don't want HG kids. And that it could be hard to advocate for a HG kid, because in our area people think all kids are gifted (and they are partly right, but then they are probably not aware that HG exists either..).

While I understand your decision I am not sure it was the right one. Horizontal differentiation means 5 worksheets instead of 3 but all the same or at best the 3 the class does followed by 2 slightly harder (14 + 6 instead of 4 + 6).

Is gifted public an option in your area???

I am feeling less and less comfortable with your current choice (sorry)... of course, I am looking at based on my personal experiences (!!! two boys) and yours might be different :-)

You make a good point this needs to be the right decision now... if he is not way ahead in reading, maths and writing prior to the start of K you might be OK for a bit, with enrichment at home as needed.

Best of luck!

Unfortunately our public school has an api score of only 7. So we need to go with private school. I am so thankful to you all for the honest opinions, I don't need sugar coating, and please keep it coming I am checking the thread often. I am feeling uncomfortable with my decision as well

Expat Mama, I guess I am hoping we'll be ok for a couple years at least.. We have a 9 months old as well and my husband is very busy at work (though very available in the weekend) so my hands are full and home schooling will be tough in the next three years at least. This is partly why we chose the non-GT school, if the GT school doesn't survive, we will be stuck in a bad corner.

Have any of you done math enrichment at home (with Khan academy, for instance), that is ahead of the school? And if so, how did the kids handle the math instruction hours at school?

I am also trying to figure out how "bad" could this be? I mean, what is the magnitude we are looking at, will he want to be a year ahead (manageable), or three (trouble)?

It depends on the child's personality. My 6 year old is in public school (not in the US) and while not madly ahead when he started I would say he is working at a level after 2 years of school which is maybe 6 months ahead of where he started. He went backwards for the first 6 months. He couldn't read when he started but was a year ahead after 6 months or so. In his second year his reading group was given no instruction for the last four months because they had reached the end of the levelled readers. By the end of year on paper everyone was reading on the same level (yeah ok). He got a bit of maths extension last year (extra work mostly) but spent a fair bit of time doing "jobs" for the teacher.

I would home school in a heart beat but i am a single mother, working is a necessity and i can't afford childcare. School is my childcare and i am just grateful he is sporty.

Of course this is an example of a GOOD outcome.

Given you are where you are, advocate as soon as evident for no below level math homework and for free reading of material at his level. Those seem to be the two most consistently painful points. Along with "more of the same" as supposed enrichment. Also the key is getting a good teacher mix, move quickly if his teacher seems to be a rigid authoritarian.

Some articles describe api as ranging from a low of 200 to a high of 1000 with a goal of 800 or more. Because you state the score as 7, are you speaking of this measure or another, such as those offered on greatschools.org?

A school which opened recently, survived rumors of closing, now has a waitlist, and is exhibiting a healthy relationship in offering the flexibility to welcome you at a later date if you turn them down now... is probably a good school. Schools which understand and accommodate HG+ kids are rare and because HG+ is a small population, these schools may be expected to be smaller. Some might suggest looking at the academics, support/challenge, and potential intellectual peers/friendships this school may offer your kiddo, and also looking for kindred spirits among parents.

Some may say it is not healthy to go into a situation whose success is based upon hiding who one is. Especially true for a child. Some may say "no vertical differentiation" means capped learning. Being a "well-respected" and "darling" school may indicate it is for students with more frequently occurring intellectual profiles. Serving mainstream kids seems consistent with "no vertical differentiation"... which is all but saying, "no advocacy".

For clarity, you may wish to jot on paper what your family philosophy of education is, alongside the educational philosophy of each of the above schools.

1. You may wish to get the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children.
2. You may wish to read posts about kids who "hide", underachieve, or become frustrated and act out.
3. You may also wish to read posts about questions to ask in choosing a school?
4. If your high IQ kiddo is not already performing several years ahead in something, based on his own volition and exploration to satisfy his curiosity, some may question whether the scores are GAI or FSIQ... has he been checked for possible learning disability?

Excellent post, MON. Peanutsmom, I hope you'll take MON's post to heart because her logic is on point.

Might this refer to this ?

Might this refer to this ?

There is a difference between the art of blending in, and the shame of hiding who one is; Hiding and blending in are two different things.

Part of getting along with others involves accepting one's self, including differences, so that one can genuinely accept others, including those things each individual may enjoy which they do not have in common. The need to hide who one is, is not conducive to a child learning to accept one's self... or others.

This. The thing about HG kiddos is that they tend to learn faster than the general population, so you really need to focus on finding the right environment for just a year or two at a time. Would it be nice to be able to plan out further, sure. And you should think long term, just to take it into consideration because changing things up can be a pain. But, truthfully, we have never found a situation that works well for more than a couple of years. We have had times when we have settled for not ideal.

With this in mind, I would tend to go with the HG but unstable school, even if it is open for just a couple of years. Those two years of being nurtured would be well worth the hassle of changing schools, I would think, when compared with two years of your child hiding his abilities or not learning how to learn in a school environment or possible learning to dislike school. I would, personally, think seriously about taking a chance with the HG school.

One of the private schools I was considering for DD last year is closing at the end of this school year so I can relate to your concern about school closure because where we live, we might not be able to transfer to another good private school all that easily.

However, I'd be very hesitant to send any children with unusual abilities to a school that has an anti-acceleration policy. One thing for certain is that gifted children's needs change very quickly. Ideally, you'd want a school that is willing to be flexible to meet your child's needs.

It sounds like you live in a large city with many educational options. Have you looked into less mainstream options? Are there any charter Montessori schools or other child-centered alternatives?

I tend to agree that if your child is HG plus more of the same May not cut it. That being said there is more to math than spatial abilities. From what I understand working memory is the most important factor through algebra and then it is a combination of spatial skills and executive functioning (inhibition, mental flexibility etc). I guess my point is I would be cautious about saying A always equals B. Children are generally much more complicated than that. If the school is not willing to be flexible about curriculum and will not consider grade acceleration or at least subject acceleration I would find a school that is. Best of luck with your decision:)!

My son went to a wonderful GT school for two years, and then it was changed to a boarding school for overseas students wanting to learn English (new owner). Yes, it was awful that it changed and that we lost such a wonderful school. But even so, I wouldn't change what he got out of those two years. He developed his mind, was exposed to new ideas that most other schools don't bring up, made friends, and learned a lot.

It's very difficult for parents of HG+ kids when their first child enters the school system. The vast majority of us simply don't know how bad American schools truly are in general, let alone how toxic they can be to gifted kids. I didn't, in spite of the fact that I had been reading about their problems for a couple of years. The thing is, the stuff that makes it into print only scratches the surface. One thing that parents of very young HG+ kids often don't know is how rare it is for a school to understand even a portion of the needs of a HG+ student.

Peanutsmom, all I know about these two schools is what you've written. TBH, I'm not sure why you started this thread if you'd already made a decision. I'm also not sure about your concern that the GT school may go under if they have a waiting list. Is there another serious problem there beyond enrollment?

The poor woman has probably gone in search of valium. I think she has already turned the HG school down.

If you are still there don't panic. He maylike the social aspects of K enough to get through the year. Heaps of people home school with babies and/or toddlers in the mix. A littlekid only needs a couple ofhours academics a day then lots of opportunities for free play and exploration. Just don't plan on getting full time work unless you have a husband on the same page as you.

Thanks again everyone! I posted this thread because we are still indecisive in a way. In all the schools (including this GT school), differentiation starts at the first grade. So we are ok for a year at least. So my thinking is we will go to this non-GT school for the year, homeschool him math to see where his abilities are and how fast he learns, and if it seems like he is really that much ahead of the peers at the non GT school, and the school won't accommodate, we will talk about transferring to the GT school. Meanwhile by identifying the trouble early (if it exists) then we can have earlier talk to this school than otherwise. I am thinking of starting the homeschooling this summer.

psychland, his working memory is also very good, as well as his picture memory. But I don't know how to judge his executive functions, but I am guessing that the current pre-K program is great at developing that.

We have been procrastinating because, we don't know how well the test scores are in predicting his Math needs. Right now he is not rough/demanding with his pre-K teachers, academic wise, so we are not sure he will be acting as a HG kid in math later... Or maybe I am in denial here? OTOH the pre-K is play based and very unstructured, so the kids do whatever they want to do within a theme defined by the teachers.

I am going to meet a math teacher/tutor next weekend in order to learn how to teach math; she is not willing to take GT kids (she said it is harder to teach them, is it?) but is willing to jumpstart me. Now I am starting to feel it that most people are not willing to work with HG kids. To say that I am nervous might be an understatement.

Okay, I understand better now. Thanks for clarifying. This isn't an easy journey to make, especially because it's hard to understand the school system before you've dealt with it as an adult.

As for denial, I prefer the concept of underestimation to denial. Denial implies that there's an understanding that's being pushed away, whereas underestimation implies a misunderstanding.

The thing is, I'm not sure that all HG+ kids fit the gifted-kids-pull-you profile, so your child may not necessarily clamor for more math or more whatever. But this doesn't mean that they don't need the harder work. It just makes it harder to identify their needs.


It depends. If the teacher understands mathematics and giftedness, teaching HG+ kids is probably easier most of the time, because the pupil gets it so much more quickly. My DD often gets the idea halfway through my explanation and can then do a problem without more help from me. I get what's going on, and see it as a great thing. But someone who doesn't grok giftedness may not like this kind of reaction, fearing that the student is being impatient and doesn't actually get it.

My experience (while it may be different than others) is that the teacher is the most important thing. We have had an amazing year (kindergarten) and a so so year (first), and the experience that we have had seems to vary more based on the teacher than any other factor. See if you can meet with the teachers and get an idea of how flexible they are. Also remember that as long as he continues to do the things that he loves that build spatial skills (Legos, maps, puzzles, sports) these skills are not going to go away. So regardless of whether he learns algebra early or not (as long as he is happy at school) it is probably going to make zero difference in the long run.

Thanks for clarifying, MoN. I was curious because your post was written re:indigo and because I did not see any reference to "honesty" or "blending in" up-thread.

Val, thank you for putting it into perspective that not all HG+ kids fit the gifted-kids-pull-you profile. Our son is very easy going on all fronts; he works with whatever material is available to him, which is why I am worried that he might not show his real abilities unless challenged. We do not want to be in denial, which is why we started this journey, but we might be underestimating his abilities today due to lack of formal instruction. We definitely don't want to have him just do busy work while everyone else is learning.

Hi Peanutsmom! Our sons (mine is 4.5) sound somewhat similar. Ours also hit the ceiling on VSI (and a few other subtests), on the WPPSI IV (and was probably nowhere near his limits - he thought the blocks section was "easy") - and has always been unusual. Doing 60-100 piece puzzles around his 2nd birthday. And like your kid, he now loves Legos; we just introduced him to Lego at Christmas, and he has not yet reached the limits of his ability (he finds sets for 7-12 year olds easy...). We also share your schooling worries. And I am not sure that math tutoring, say, is the way to go for our son. He is already ahead there, as well as in reading (in 2 languages), with very limited "instruction". I am thinking more along the lines of complementing what is going to be taught at school, via Lego, construction, puzzles, etc., to minimize the discrepancy with school. But not sure if this is the right approach. He is such a quick learner...Maybe we can exchange ideas as we travel along this journey.
Oh, wanted to add, our son is also totally normal socially, very pleasant, and tends to hide his true ability when not challenged - he totally blends in.

Rac, thanks for sharing your story

We are not in the highly gifted all around (I think), we hit the ceiling only on VSI, though he is gifted overall. But on VSI he is also very creative.. He can work with any materials today, creating various contraptions, that actually works. It is also totally his own initiative. I don't have that level of imagination.

We also just found out from pediatrician that his vision is not 20/20. The HG school director actually told us her suspicion about his vision earlier because of some scores discrepancies, and to get it checked.. But pediatrician said to wait because it might self correct at some point, as he is still very young. We both wear glasses, and I started wearing glasses very young. In second grade I couldn't see letters on the blackboard even when I sat on the first row, and I was stupid enough to not tell my parents for a while (afraid of bullying). I really hope it won't be as bad for him, or that it will self correct (some).

May I suggest taking him to an eye doctor who specializes in young children? Yes, your son's eyes might correct at some point, however, he will be hampered/uncomfortable now if they are anything significantly different than 20/20. We found out our DS was quite farsighted when he was about four years old. However, that eye doctor was not as good as the one in the area we moved to two years later, who did some tests and found out that the glasses he had were barely helping and that he had a severe lazy eye issue (corrected with a few months of patching). Since then, the eyes have strengthened, but DS is very much reliant on his glasses, which tells us that he needs them.

Sorry to toss this at you too, but it is something that is more critical than most people realize. DS has been much more comfortable with schoolwork since he got the correct correction. Also, there has been no negative response from peers to his glasses. In fact, they are much more common on kids around here than I recall being the case when I was young.

Could I second the suggestion to take him to an eye doctor? Either an Ophthalmologist or Optometrist is fine, but a pediatric one.

Our Pediatrician told us to hold off when DS6 was 3, because "it doesn't matter until they're reading," but he ended up having major astigmatism and the Ophthalmologist we went to said that really the earlier the better because the brain is constantly developing the vision system and correcting vision will help to make sure it develops normally, at least from that point.

Don't want to scare you, but it really is important, and also don't want to contradict a Pediatrician, but I've never heard of vision self-correcting.

Both of my kiddos wear glasses and love them.

I agree with the suggestion to see a pediatric eye doctor. My DS6 has been wearing glasses since he was 3, and he just had a checkup last week. The eye doctor specifically made a comment that because we caught his vision issues early, his vision is better now than it would have been had we waited to put him in glasses. His brain was at a developmental stage where it could adapt and rewire itself based on the correction from the glasses.

I would at least take him to an eye dr for a check - the fact that the HG director who is (I would expect, since she made the comment) familiar with the individual tests used said that she suspected vision issues - indicates that vision challenges might have impacted your ds' test scores. If they did - having na understanding of that might help you have a better understanding of the extent of his giftedness. The other thing is - if he has vision issues, it may be impacting his ability to learn to read etc at the rate he's able to.

Maybe it will eventually self-correct, but why not go ahead and give him glasses now if he needs them? Our ds, who's far-sightedness did self-correct, was still given a prescription for lenses.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks so much to everybody for the support and kind advices! I have been neglecting the issue because I didn't realize that he could actually have vision issue this early! And you made great points too about potential reading problems and test scores problems. What the test revealed was that he seemed to have scanning issues, hence the hypothesis about vision problem. I googled it last night and it seems that if a child has vision issue, block design is the only score that is not likely to be impacted, since he won't need to distinguish fine lines between shapes. I will check our local pediatric ophthalmologists and ask if he needs glasses. I am a bit sad that he is not avoiding our genetic "defect", but as both parents wear glasses, it is not likely that our kids will be spared.

Don't be sad! Glasses are so much nicer than they used to be, and when he is older, he can choose contact lenses if he likes!

Even if he's managing well without correct, it may be irritating or tiring him without him knowing (since his eyes have always been that way). We have noticed many differences for the good since DS had his vision appropriately corrected.

Thank you! we just asked our pediatrician for a referral, and will take him to an ophthalmologist.

Our school district is all about "horizontal differentiation" as well. And only in circumstances where there is actually a good teacher or an advocating (to them, "pushy") parent. Otherwise all kids do the same math regardless of ability. Basically they take the "enriched" materials from the curriculum for that grade level. The ones that are put out by the publisher. So the kid might have to explain 3 different ways to solve 15-10 rather than just doing it one way. My first grader scored >99.9th percentile on the math section of the Woodcock Johnson and the school still insisted on this horizontal differentiation and said that would be all that is necessary. Otherwise there would be "gaps" (for instance the poor kid would miss the unit on how to measure with a ruler and it would ultimately mess up the state standardized testing). Finally we took him out of the school and put him in a different district school. The teacher seems to get it and did a bunch of above-level assessments on him. She took the results (for instance the report on the computerized testing stating "suggested learning objectives") and is basically following that and printing out worksheets online. He has brought home above- level homework on graphs, probability, converting measurement (like how many feet is 986 inches). So, the rest of the class might get 1st grade graph homework, and DS might get 3rd grade graph homework. She works with him while the rest of the class is on the computer learning their 3+2 math facts or occupied with other things. While the rest of the class is doing 1st grade math and she is working with them, she also sometimes puts him on the computer (or ipad?) to do Adapted Mind Math on his own. The work that he is doing on there is above grade level. She does not make him sit through 1st grade math lectures (thank god!).
Next year, I don't know what is going to happen with a new teacher, but for right now he is being vertically accelerated within the classroom. The ideal situation would be to have him move to a different classroom with kids who are doing the same level work, but the district doesn't do that anymore and won't allow it under most circumstances.
The teacher says that she will work with the teacher next year to explain what she is doing, the results of the assessments, and what works/doesn't work so that hopefully there will be some continuity. Once there is a teacher that gets it and makes it work, it would be pretty hard for a new teacher to say "I'm not going to do that anymore."

blackcat, can I borrow that math teacher for my DS?

Haha...if I could clone her I would. Honestly, I don't know if this is just who she is, or if she's scared I'm going to pull him out (because we transferred schools already), or what. I don't know, I just let her do her thing.

blackcat, now I am feeling more concerned A parent from this school told us that her kid learned advanced math in the afterschool program (at some other center), and the school teacher told her that the kid needed to learn several different ways to do the grade level stuff. How bad is this?

I have been ignoring these largely because our son has not been prepared. We want to know what his true talents are, and the extent (and to be honest, we are too busy and frazzled, with a baby and busy jobs). We even didn't take it seriously when the HG director told us he might have vision issues. But we do want him to be able to accelerate if he chooses to do so later (without us pushing him). We are going to consult a math teacher in a couple weeks to see how we can do math home schooling, so that we can observe early whether he'd need to transfer. We are a bit concerned that prepping him in math might dig the hole deeper for us (in terms of inability to blend in at the school), but maybe it is better to know early whether it is a problem.

Anyway, I am going to do my job as a mommy now and email our clinic to have him seen by ophthalmologist.