Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Handwriting limit in IEP

Right now DS's "physically impaired" IEP says something like "handwriting will be limited if DS shows signs of fatigue." I told his new IEP manager that I want it to be more specific. But I guess I don't know how to figure out what's "reasonable". I don't even really care about regular classroom work, unless it really gets obnoxious (which it really doesn't in first grade), but there was an episode where someone pulled him out of class for math assessments and made him write 8 pages at a time (back to back assessments). I looked at these tests, and the writing after the first page or two was illegible chicken scratches. Then it was actually scored! THAT'S the type of thing I want to avoid in the future. The IEP manager told me to talk to his private OT and have her document what she thinks is "reasonable" but she probably won't have much of an opinion. It's not like she has him do schoolwork during his sessions. Can anyone give me suggestions on how to word this in the IEP? Also, I'm not sure about the slant board. Before it said "slant board will be available to use." But the problem was that his last heinous teacher kept saying "it's available for him to use" whenver I asked about it, but never reminded him and didn't seem to care if he used it or tried it. He was 6, and wasn't going to do that on his own! So I asked the new IEP manager to change that as well, not because I don't trust the current teacher but who knows what he'll get in the fall. So now it says: "Slant board will be available at DS's work station, as well as a "portable" slant board that DS can use for writing when away from his work station. He will be encouraged and promoted to use it when writing information of any signficant length so he doesn't fatigue".
This sounds good, but I don't know if the slant board really helps. No one has ever tried it for a long enough period of time to find out. And what is the point of a slant board anyway? Is it to prevent fatigue? I'd like the teacher to be able to try it but if it doesn't help, then discontinue. Do we put in the IEP "try for X amount of time and if IEP team members agree it doesn't help, discontinue use?"

His current teacher is actually really good and I don't have complaints about her. I just want to have a good IEP to prevent problems in the future. I feel bad about nit-picking at it. Today DS brought home double digit multiplication word problems like how many minutes are in 15 hours, and she stapled 2 pages of graph paper onto the worksheet with problems circled that she wanted him to do on the graph paper. So not only is the work at the right level but she actually gave him graph paper! I never asked for any of this, she just did it. I am very impressed. There are good teachers out there!

How much does your DS think he can manage without undue fatigue?

Honestly, while he is young-- he DOES know his own body better than anyone else. What does HE think ought to be a hard limit? Does it need to be an "hourly" kind of limit, an assignment-specific one? Or is it total on the day?

Eh-- well, if the slant-board works, then ideally you'd want to be using one for homework at home, right? Can you BORROW one from the school to try at home for a period prior to writing it in his IEP? It will be a noticeable difference from classmates-- might as well be sure it will help.

Does his OT have one you could try?

They don't have him using a real slant board, it's a 3 ring binder. But I don't understand how that works. Shouldn't there be a clip at the top to hold the paper in place? I'm not really sure if that's an acceptable substitute. He doesn't write much at home (except a few math problems which take 5 minutes) so I haven't tried a binder but I should buy one and watch and see what happens.

As for DS saying how much he can handle, I don't know if he would have an opinion. He doesn't tend to complain about things and isn't very articulate. When he writes, he's very tight and awkward. He also supposedly has tremors. I'll try to have him write today and watch him and see what happens.

It may seem silly and arbitrary, but I'd really request both a page/line limit and a time limit. IE: No more than 15 minutes or 1 pages of writing.

I think that 8 page assignment gives you a good bit of evidence for requesting a single page or less - clearly after that point his writing goes straight downhill.

Blackcat - I don't have tine right this minute but my DS's IEP handwriting limits are very very specific and good. I'm pretty sure I've posted them for someone else so in the meantime search under my name. But I'll sly top back when I get a second and put them on this thread for you

My DD's limits were added bit by bit as needed. In K our private OT suggested use of a slant board. The real ones were collapsible cardboard with clips on top to hold the papers. In school it was a 3 ring binder. She was allowed to use it only if it would be made available for use by all kids in the classroom. They never actually let her use it. We tried it at home but it didn't make a huge difference for her. In school she was regularly punished for not being able to complete writing assignments - i.e. forced to sit for 45 minutes at a time, being kept in from recess, skipping snack, etc and ridiculed for writing only a few words in that time. They knew about her fine motor deficit but would not authorize testing for in school services saying "She would never qualify - she's too smart."

In first she had a fabulous teacher who just naturally modified and accommodated as needed. DD wrote as much as she could in the time allotted for the class. The amount didn't matter. When I attended a parents' participation day for the 100th day of school I saw the problem. DD orally told me an amazing, in depth story in response to the writing prompt but got only the first line or 2 written in the time allotted. This is when I asked for scribing as an accommodation on longer assignments. My position was that she was not able to access the full curriculum if she was not able to fully respond to the questions presented. There was no way to actually measure her mastery if her full answers weren't available to the teacher. Fabulous teacher then started scribing and amazing, creative, really mind blowing stories started coming home. I also asked for keyboarding to be introduced but the school OT was from the school of thought that it was an inappropriate accommodation before 5th grade.

By the end of 1st grade things with the principal had blown up and we brought in our educational consultant who started working with central office. The director of special services, a former school psychologist, seemed to really understand DD's profile and had a good grasp of her needs. He authorized the AT eval and brought in a part time para to scribe for DD. Unfortunately he left for excellent neighboring district at the end of the year so we were left to fight for everything with those that were left.

Through 2nd grade the teacher just could not wrap her head around DD's needs. She totally failed to modify or accommodate and kept asking DD to do more writing than she could reasonably handle. Spec Ed teacher was supposed to modify *every single worksheet* DD was presented. She could not rewrite corrected sentences but could, for example, cross out what was wrong and write a corrected verb tense. Word banks were numbered and she could enter the number of the word she selected rather than write the sentence or word itself. She could draw lines between blanks and her choice to fill it in.

In theory this was a great solution when matched with a part time para to write the longer responses. It didn't work though and teacher kept telling DD to "write as much as you can yourself before you ask for help." It took all year to finally get the AT evaluation done and the AT was never really implemented. They added a full time para to write full time for DD. Because of teacher's inability to comprehend the limitations we had to get very, very specific about how much DD could write. She didn't want to disappoint the teacher so we said she could write as much as she wanted but anything more than 2 lines had to be done outside the classroom. Unlimited writing when working with OT or spec ed teacher. As much as she wanted with the para as long as not in the classroom so teacher could not put inappropriate pressure on her. No near or far point copying tasks.

Now in 3rd grade at OOD there are no limits. Full time spec ed teachers understand her issues and do not put inappropriate pressure on her. As a result she is choosing to write more herself, although it is totally illegible. She has full time access to her iPad and uses it throughout her day. She is being trained with both keyboarding and voice-to-text. She does great as long as there is no pressure on her to perform or concerned about disappointing someone.

This may be way more info than you asked for but hopefully it will be helpful to have the full progression laid out for you or others facing the same issues. Glad to hear the new teacher is working out so well. It makes such a difference when you come across a gem like that!

Thanks for all the input. The thing with my DS is that he can be incredibly lazy and unmotivated. So the last teacher didn't push him to do anything at all and didn't expect anything from him, and he lived up to her expectations. His writing seriously deteriorated over the course of the 5 months he was in that class and at the end looked like preschool writing, when before it was reasonable for his age. I don't think he has dysgraphia, it's more DCD and hypotonia. So when he slows down and puts extra effort into it, he does produce neat handwriting and it will probably get better over time. The teacher is being strict with him and is not putting up with his nonsense, which I think is good, as long as she doesn't over-do it. That kind of method would probably be really bad for a kid who was actually motivated, but just couldn't do it. It's a balance. I don't want him to be forced to over-do it, but he needs some pushing as well because of his laziness and apathy.
The lady from the district has the math assessments. I don't think she knew he is on an IEP. She told me that "he seems slow" (as in physically slow). Duh, lady, he's on a "physically impaired" IEP and you just made him do 3 back-to-back unit tests for math. Good job. No one even told me they were going to pull him out for math tests. I asked DS if he tried his hardest on those tests and he said only on the problems where he didn't have to write much.

Sounds like my DD, blackcat. Yes, we have "pushed" on handwriting, but it's always been our call, which has (only very very seldom) been punitive.

Keyboarding is a good solution-- but only if they offer instruction in keyboarding. Hunt-and-peck didn't make things better for my DD, if only because it came at a cost to ergonomics that impacted her in other ways. Hyperflexibility meant that she developed this WAY weird typing position with her hands. I can't even describe it-- it was this chicken CLAW thing. Augh.

The other thing that has helped is providing opportunities to practice in situations which are not pressured-- either for graded work or for time. Math note-taking was our vehicle in particular. DD was able to use her own handwritten notes on quizzes in AlgebraII, but the rules were quite strict about it, so she HAD a reason to take notes that were legible-- to her, at least. She could do it as slowly as she needed to in order to avoid fatigue or pain, but it had to be done.

KWIM?

A slant board never really helped DD much-- but a CLIP-board did. She still sometimes uses that method-- it's a lot steeper angle than a slant-board and it's held different-- closer to her body-- she often will keep the top of the clipboard (or stiff-backed notebook) on a table surface in front of her, and the bottom of it will rest in her lap.

It's probable about a 45 to 60 degree slant.

I don't know how you'd write any of this up for an IEP. The problem with a child who is both physiologically limited and also a bit unwilling to push him/herself is that it requires a judgment call on the part of someone who both knows and respects your child. {sigh}

There are days when I know that my DD is just being a bit lazy. Then there are days when I (equally) know that she is truly struggling with her physiology.

Maybe the key is to define "signs of fatigue" more clearly.

Training for EVERYONE that works with your child in ways that demand fine-motor tasks-- so that they recognize such signs.

Would that be a way to get at what is actually needed, Blackcat?

Black cat, I think it was from the Eides that I first heard that dysgraphia almost always accompanies DCD. It can occur without DCD but if your child has DCD dysgraphia on some level is there.

Okay here is what is in my DS's iep with regard to handwriting:


"Primary lined paper will be provided for journaling, Writers Workshop, and special area assignments that require more than 3 lines of writing... for assignments for writing assignments 3 lines or greater."

"On tasks of two lines or less, DS will be encouraged, but not required, to write independently... for writing assignments of two lines or less."

"For writing tasks three lines or longer, DS and a scribe may alternate writing 1-2 sentences each. Scribe will do all writing after Ben completes a maximum of 4 handwritten lines."

He does the majority of his writing on the computer now so it's not an issue but during any tests or whenever the computer is not an option these are the accommodations that are in effect. And even in math we are incorporating "panther math paper" so he doesn't have to write out strings of numbers.

HTH!

What's panther math paper? All we're doing now is huge graph paper for him to use to "show his work". The problem with DS is that he insists upon doing all of the math in his head. So then he makes careless errors. So teacher is trying to get him to use graph paper for the more complicated problems like (just as an example) 14X60, whereas 8X60 she would let him solve in his head and not show any work. I know that other teachers aren't going to be as flexible as she is about letting him do things in his head. It's going to drive certain teachers nuts (like the one who gave him the woodcock johnson and he didn't write anything down at all except what he had to for the fluency section).

Howler, interesting about the clipboard. Not sure if he would hold his arm in an acceptable position away from his body if he tried that. Good point about "what is fatigue"...if we could somehow demonstrate what is fatigue and what is laziness. It can be hard to tell with him. And how bad would his writing have to get before it's considered fatigued handwriting. The lady who pulled him out for math assessments and made him do 3 back-to-back unit tests doesn't see a problem with what she did. I don't think it would be Ok even for a "normal" first grader much less one who is impaired enough to be in therapies and have an IEP.

Yeah-- I just see staff training as the major stumbling block for a lot of hidden disabilities-- a failure to understand means (as often as not) a failure to graciously and appropriately support the student's actual needs.

KWIM?

Here's an idea for math--

If he works problem sets/assignments backwards-- that is, starting with the most challenging problems he's been assigned, and only doing the "easy" ones if he gets the hard ones wrong.

That way he'll have greater incentive to write out work on just one or two problems... and if he gets those RIGHT, then everyone is happy with his demonstration of mastery.

Assuming that he will agree to "write everything out" for the first one or two.

This is a strategy that we implemented with DD-- if the problems weren't hard enough she would refuse to write out steps, and if she got them wrong, then it was a total mystery WHY, too. Useless all around, actually. Harder problems FIRST solved that, plus she had the incentive of not being bored or forced to do more writing if she did the hard ones right-- and truthfully, they were more appropriate anyway.

Your teacher sounds great, so it could be that this person would be willing to TRY that approach and see if it is something that could go in as an IEP line item.

Yup, sounds just like my DS. Last night he tried to add a string of about 6 two and three digit numbers in his head ... he came close but he made some careless error along the way b/c he was three off... He does the exact same thing and it's to avoid the writing...The fact that he has so much trouble forming the numbers (all of which are reversed, mind you), and it takes so long to form each number, impedes him math and also sucks the enjoyment out of the math. He has done really well doing everything in his head (he got to 4th grade level on Woodcock Johnson applied problems doing all the problem solving in his head refusing to use scratch paper). But, as I keep telling him, he IS NOT a computer - he can't do that forever. He does use graph paper but he just hates the writing. Plus with the inversions and reversals, the writing out can impede the math as well.

Anyway: here is a video of panther math paper. It's awesome:
http://vimeo.com/58327955

blackcat, it sounds to me like you could use some good professional advice about your ds' handwriting. He's had a neuropsych eval in which he was diagnosed with DCD, but that's been at least a year ago or longer, hasn't it? One thing that might be helpful would be for you to go back to the neuropsych just for an hour of his/her time and ask her questions about what you've observed Ask specifically if they think your ds might have dysgraphia. I had to do this very same thing a year after our ds' first neuropsych eval and it was actually very helpful. The situation in our case was that the word "dysgraphia" was never mentioned in her report although she'd given us a ton of advice on limits and therapies etc to help ds with handwriting. When I tried to research online, everything referred to dysgraphia, but I didn't know for sure if what we were dealing with really was dysgraphia. The neuropsych cleared that up for me right away The other thing that was helpful was I was able to update her on what we'd tried from her original recommendations vs how it worked out, and she was able to make additional recommendations for "where to go from here" - all without re-evaluating ds.

I also consulted with an OT who specifically focused on AT for children with handwriting challenges. I initiated that consult simply because I wanted a good roadmap for AT solutions, but the consult gave me something that was perhaps more valuable long-term. I went into the consult having the majority of my knowledge base on how to accommodate etc built upon my having researched and read about children with traditional dysgraphia. The consultant right away changed my focus and understanding a bit in that she saw ds' handwriting challenges in light of his DCD - which ultimately meant some of the traditional accommodations that work for kids with dysgraphia-only were not going to work (or would not work in the same way) for ds. For instance, the OT saw right away that based on his diagnosis, keyboarding needed to be put in place of handwriting (standard dysgraphia remediation) *but* it wasn't going to ever be fast keyboarding. Little things like that - that added to clarity that was very helpful for understanding how to move forward.


I would be very careful to not automatically assume that refusal to write or do classwork at this point is laziness - until your ds has a method to write that he'd comfortable with and has shown he can use effectively. It might take a few years to get to that point too. The thing is, children who refuse (for whatever reason) to write in the classroom can easily look "lazy" whether or not the reason is laziness or a disability.


Whether or not it's "dysgraphia" or his DCD etc, this is very typical of what happens to my ds who has DCD and associated dysgraphia. He can learn how to shape letters, he can work hard at handwriting and improve his legibility, but he's also had times when he goes without using it frequently and all the gains disappear as if he'd never had the handwriting instruction. The only times that legibility gains really stuck for him were associated with (jmo) times that he had a maturing-spurt - when his body awareness was growing in a way that allowed the gains in handwriting to stick. And it's important to be aware too that for a child who is dysgraphic, legibility alone isn't the reason you move to keyboarding. No matter how neat or readable the child's handwriting is, if the child is dysgraphic, the *act* of handwriting takes up all of their working memory, so they are left with a real deficit in the ability to incorporate spelling, grammar, punctuation *while* handwriting, and more importantly, very little left over for formulating the ideas that they are being asked to express through writing. That's why dysgraphic students need access to AT - not simply a case of legibility. Without the AT, their full voices aren't heard, and as Pemberley mentions, they are therefore not experiencing FAPE.

The other reason I feel strongly that having the insight into your specific child from a qualified professional is important is that the issues you're trying to work your way through at the moment are all in *this* moment, this grade, this point in time - but a child who is dysgraphic or DCD isn't going to magically have those issues disappear when their handwriting looks better or next year when they are a year older etc - they are issues that will most likely be present in one form or another for life. So what you do now isn't just putting a bandaid on what's going on now, it's a step on a long journey toward independence as an older student and adult, and the choices you make (whether or not to push the slant board, push writing long passages, scribing vs keyboarding etc vs putting time into getting used to AT) are going to potentially impact where your child is in terms of independence further down the road.


It sounds like maybe your ds is showing signs of laziness in other areas too - so if laziness and apathy are concerns, I'd focus on getting him past it in some area where you aren't worried about a potential disability.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - I forgot to mention what our ds' accommodations are, but fwiw, I'm mentioning them as only one example - the important thing to take away from it is that they are determined by his *individual* needs - we know he will never be able to depend on handwriting to show his knowledge, and we have a private professional's report to back us up

In his elementary school IEP:

* extended time on tests (classroom and state/standardized testing)
* use of word processor (aka computer) on essay questions on testing for classroom and state/standardized testing.
* writes answers in the question book on state/standardized testing (i.e., doesn't use the bubble/scantron sheets to record his answers)
* oral response answers for all fluency tests
* use of a word processor for any classroom and homework assignments that are longer than a 1-2 sentence answer
* quiet room for testing

Those are his "officially documented" accommodations. He also uses the following informal accommodations:

* word processor for all classwork and classroom testing (he's allowed to either scan in worksheets or just write answers on his iPad/laptop, and he is allowed to use specialized software/apps that support his writing such as word prediction, audio recording etc).

* I scribed the majority of his homework for him when he was in elementary school, and I still scribe occasionally when he is extra tired or extremely short on time.

* not graded on spelling on essays etc (points taken off for spelling/grammar only on assignments where spelling/grammar are the goals)

* extended time on writing assignments as needed (he used to use this accommodation frequently, but as he's matured and made gains in his ability to use written expression with his AT, he no longer uses this accommodation)

* allowed to get up and take a break while writing if he becomes fatigued/stuck/etc

FWIW, ds has had a lot of hand pain associated with handwriting. He never expressed it verbally when he was your ds' age - we only saw it in his actions (he would rub his wrist repeatedly and refuse to write). Once he was older he shared a lot more about how handwriting made him feel - but we still had to ask about pain. It wasn't until he was around 12-13 years old that he actually mentioned pain to us - and at that point in time I thought he was way past having pain when writing because his handwriting was so limited - but sure enough, even today, even with OT to correct posture/grip/etc, if he has to use handwriting for more than just a few minutes it causes him noticeable pain. Based on our ds' experience with pain and frustration, I wouldn't for a minute rely on a young student to be able to accurately judge how long they are able to write without fatigue. I'd also be very aware of the cumulative impact of writing fatigue - suppose you write for 10 minutes in the morning, and reach your limit - you become fatigued. Then you have another writing assignment an hour later, and again you limit it just to the edge of where you anticipate it will become tiring (another 10 minutes). And this happens all day long, repeatedly. The amount of time/number of words a child is going to be able to write without becoming fatigued is going to diminish over the course of the school day, if they are constantly writing to the point of fatigue. And what is fatigue? It's more than just a hand becoming tired or sore, it's mental fatigue from having to deal with how to from letters, spelling, grammar etc at the same time. That's why I think it's so important to have a qualified professional take a look at each individual child and make the determination - what is appropriate for this child.

Hope some of that helps!

polarbear

I'm going to take DD in for a pscyh eval and he said he can look for possible dysgraphia. If I like him, maybe DS should go as well. The neuropsych he saw wasn't the type to look at learning disabilities. He wasn't even interested in seeing DD with her ADHD. I think the only reason he saw DS was because of the brain injury (he fractured his skull and had some obvious brain damage). That assessment was last May, so about 9 months ago.

DS's handwriting improved dramatically the second he was at the new school with the new teacher and it has stayed decent since then (2 weeks?) so I think it's a case of him being lazy and he knew he could get away with little effort with the other teacher. I'm sure it takes more effort for him to write than other kids, but the sloppy work he was doing at the other school was clearly him being really unmotivated and just deciding he didn't care. He's like that with other things too.

Thanks for all the suggestions for what we can put in the IEP. I'm just really not sure how "bad" the situation is. The private OT assessed him again and his score went way up. The last time he was assessed was last July and he was scoring below the 10th percentile for most things. One of the scores for motor skills went up to the 64th percentile and even manual coordination went way up and was something like the 24th. Despite the now-average scores, he definitely still looks tight and awkward when he writes, and the writing looks shaky. Luckily the new teacher has a master's in special ed and his IEP manager says the teacher is very on top of the situation and is trying different things. I'm not sure how often she has tried the slant board yet but she said she would. So things are fine now, but I'm not sure that DS will stay in that school next fall, so I was interested in having a well written IEP so it's all there in writing and we don't have to mess with it again the next time he gets a teacher who doesn't concern herself with any of his special needs. I mean, it's easier to have things in writing now than wait for a teacher who doesn't get it, and then try to remedy the situation by fixing the IEP.