Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy New poster: 8 YO HG with behavior issues, now ADHD

Hi all,

Quick background; our son is in 2nd grade and has been having behavior issues in school since PK: talking out, fidgety, picking on other kids, unkind words to kids, won't do "practice" work, etc. he has always done well at school; straight A's so our issue is behavioral & social only.

We thought it was because he wasn't being challenged and was bored in school. In GR1 we pushed the school to have him assessed for gifted. FSIQ on WISC was 139 with 149 GAI.

That school didn't offer a FT gifted program, so he was moved to a 1/2 combo class and did better. For 2nd grade we moved to a new public school that offers a FT gifted cluster. He was doing great at first. Then it fell apart in the 2nd semester. Behavior issues were back. He started picking on a kid in class (stomped on her backpack, put a spider on her, says. mean words toward her, etc.)

The teacher says he is impulsive, and says things without thinking and then regrets it. She suggested we have him assessed for ADHD. I really like her, and be a use she has been teaching only gifted kids for a long time, I trust her instincts.

We have been with a therapist for a year working on social skills and anger management, so she did some tests and sent us and the teacher some surveys. She comes back with, yes- he has ADHD.

Long story short, I've read a lot about asynchronous development, overexcitabilities, etc, and have read a lot about gifted kids having similar qualities to ADHD kids.

How common is it that a gifted child could also be ADHD?

The therapist explains this is a process. We thought the behavior issues were due to boredom, but now that he has moved to a curriculum that is challenging, and we are still seeing the same behavior issues, we have to look at other causes.

He is our only child, so we don't have anything to compare him to. He does not have any real friends, and never gets invited to parties, play dates, or anything like that. We definitely have issues. But is this normal for some gifted kids, or could it be ADHD?

Before you do anything else do some research about what he is doing in school academically. You only have to read a few threads here to realise that the so called gifted programme may be just more busywork. It is possible he waited out the first semester for the challenge he was promised then just gave up.

This is a good book on the topic:

http://www.amazon.ca/Misdiagnosis-Diagnoses-Gifted-Children-Adults/dp/0910707677

...and yes gifted kids can also have ADHD, although many gifted kids are mis-diagnosed as having it when they don't.

Good luck

Exactly what I was wondering.

This pattern would repeat itself many times before I wised up to the fact that school was just never going to actually meet my (eager and willing) daughter's needs.

She bore it with reasonable grace each fall, but the wheels tended to come off about November when she had finished reading all of her textbooks and basically extracted what (little) new content there was in the year's curriculum. Then she had nothing to look forward to but another seven months of busy-work and mind-numbing boredom with classmates who seemingly couldn't understand stuff she's known for years.

Not a good situation. She certainly looked both ODD and ADD, believe me, at that point each year. It was actually more like a combination of existential depression and a touch of seasonal affective disorder. Just acknowledging her concerns as valid has gone a long way toward helping the situation.

What is he like at home? How about on family trips when you are together all day long, what is he like then?

In what circumstances is he best behaved and worst behaved?

Does he currently get enough physical activity, and how much PE and recess does he get in school?

How does he get As if he refuses to do practice work? Is that more an occasional issue or why is that not a problem from the grade perspective?

He is at his best when we are in our little family bubble (again, he is an only). We have no problem managing him at home. Hubby and I are introverts, have a quiet house, and do low key stuff. We eat out a lot and strangers always comment on how well mannered he is. He loves Legos, riding his bike, playing in the sprinkler, all the normal kid stuff. However, He doesnt have any friends, and also no cousins so is mainly with adults. All.the.time. He's great on vacation.

His behavior is at its worst at school and at kid social events (birthday parties, etc). He's a very intense kid; when he's happy, he's really happy. But when he's mad, boy is he mad! He's a "know it all"; always blurts out answers to questions, tells the other kids how they should do things, gets frustrated if things aren't done his way, grabs things out of people's hands.

Birthday parties have been a nightmare (although he's only been invited to a handful of them). One example was an Olympic themed party where the kids were on teams. His team "lost" the competition, and he had a meltdown and it ruined his fun for the rest of the party. He doesn't recover well from setbacks. This is typical for him when kids are around. It's like he's so overstimulated, he loses control of his emotions.

They get 20 mins of recess a day, and PE 2x a week for 45 mins. Aside from that, he doesn't get much exercise (no extra curricular stuff, except karate for a while, which I've been meaning to start back up again). He's not into athletics, and when we have tried competitive team sports, it wasn't fun for him (or us!)

It's hard because I can see some ADHD traits, but then when I look at how generally "calm" he is in our bubble, I don't know. I do think he has some deficiencies in executive function, which is a big aspect of ADHD.

When I say he doesn't do practice work, I should have said doesn't like to, not won't. It seems there are lots of worksheets, homework, etc.; those he hates to do. Grades are based mainly on tests and projects, and on those he excels. He does have issues with writing; he has very sloppy handwriting, and doesn't enjoy creative writing (says he can't think of what to say and his hand hurts).

I'm mainly concerned about his inability to make and keep friends. This part of him definitely seems ADHD.

My 2e/pg 8-yr-old (only child too) was misdiagnosed with ADHD. I've had two neurofeedback providers confirm and give me evidence to the misdiagnosis from my son's actual brain wave activity. I'm un/homeschooling him so I'm able to accommodate the neurofeedback appts and OEs and create an friendly environment for him.

My son also has sensory processing issues and visual impairments that made many 'experts' think he had ADHD when he didn't.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust anyone else's instincts for my son. The teacher may mean well and have good intentions, but I had many teachers tell me that my son had ADHD when he didn't. I'd say IF you have any doubts, please don't dismiss them before going down rabbit holes. Ask lots of questions and try to drill down what's going on - how is your son attention and behavior when he is doing something he enjoys vs. not. When are the times and moments when he really struggles, etc.?

I am going through the same sort of thing with my son, 11 yr old 2e. Teachers seem to always want to label what they know, ADD, ADHD is so prevalent. I am starting to think that many supposed ADHD kids really have other issues. My son is diagnosed with dyslexia and they have suggested ADD. He focuses just great on things he want to. Now reading and writing, he absolutely hates, so he doesn't focus great. I also am suspecting dysgraphia is part of that as well. I have no idea about the rest. There definitely are some processing issues that came up in the dyslexia diagnosis.

I am starting to only trust my own instincts too. I am really close to deciding to home school too. Instead of labeling, maybe they should try some environmental changes, like not expecting kids to focus without having brain breaks and breaks in general in between. Mix it up a little. I think some teachers are just boring to every kid. I know it is hard, but make it a little fun. Maybe lots of kids not focusing has to do more with the environment and not realizing that you have to present the material in multiple ways for multiple types of children.

My question is what type of professional have you found is the best at diagnosing? There are so many providers both inside and outside of schools. I don't trust all of them either.

I have had some experience with ADD, ADHD, HG/PG and HG/PG+ADD/ADHD. What I have noticed is that if it is ADD, the medicine will be a noticeable improvement, immediately. In the case of HG/PG if the medication doesn't work, it's probably due to something else. It could be boredom or sensory issues of spectrum type of issue, anxiety, ect. Just being HG/PG can cause anxiety that can manifest in ADHD type of symptoms, like arguing, outbursts, friendship issues etc. If you go the medicine route, you have to be patient and try different doses/meds, but if ultimately you never notice a difference in behavior it's probably not ADHD. Best of luck! It's never easy. :-)

misdiagnosis is very common among to gifted children. You have to observed him at home.Especially weekends among with his friends. My son has same issues at school but Iam pretty sure that he doesn't have ADHD because, he doesnt behave liked that at home, because we are moderately giving the every information he wants and thats make him cool down.His teacher doesnt understand how smart he is. he is learning too fast so they have to teach him qickly.I said to teacher can you teach him a high school stuf. They rolled their eyes.but i said just one time , please.May be this way you can understand what i am trying to say. So they tried that just once to close my mouth but bingo. Teacher was shocked. She said that "I read a one paragraph of article about a ear even i didnt understand the some part of it and after reading the article I asked the class what is it about. MS had held his hand up(According to his teacher, he was the only one in the class the aware of what was going on ) and explained what the paragraf about and tried the talked about more things. he had been exited. But Later his teacher said to me that still something was wrong about him . howcome he cant show this in the classroom.So They send me to Pediatric neorologist.That was beginning of the first garde. This stuation is getting worse, To day when MS was doing his homework. I showed him 3th grade multipication test book and told him If you do your homework.I will let you do 5 questions in this difficult book. It worked well.After finish his homework He said that to me ""For me mommy difficult thing to get focus the easy stuff. multipications are easy to focus because knew. He is a mart boy knows himself very well. It makes our heart ache. ( I am not letting him to do stuf he doesnt figure out himself)
You have to see you son in regular playdate. When he sees his friends in regular based. I believe his behavior changed at the birthdayparties. One more thing my son daesnt like to lose either bur year by year he is getting better to control his emotions

Cathy - good for you on trusting your own instincts. I've taken my son to numerous people only to discount nearly most of them. I'm very skeptical with most 'experts'. I usually bombard them with questions to suss them out and their expertise to find the holes, but it's taken me many years to get to this stage. My ds8 was born with special needs issues so I consider myself lucky.

You can run yourself ragged and crazy going from one 'expert' to the next. I have. Even with a 2e expert, they don't usually have the background or expertise than a 2e kid needs or how to get to the root of any issue/issues. Some of the 2e stuff can cross into so many areas and fields that it really can get overwhelming. I know.

IMHO, I think it's wise to start with diet and visual exam from a behavioral optometrist first and other possible treatments. 1) Diet is something that's controllable. Many people have gotten results from removing food dyes, refined sugars, gluten or grains, dairy and/or lactose, etc. from the diet. 2) The visual system accounts for over 80% of what we process on a daily basis. Visual processing deficits are usually easy to treat. Many gifted kids develop asynchronously and there can be a lag with their eyes and bodies in terms of developing.

Even if you suspect ADHD is a correct diagnosis, neurofeedback is increasingly being seen as an alternative to medication.

Sorry everyone- I'm trying to respond but there is a big delay in posting my responses due to be being new! I appreciate your feedback, but I can't get my answers back out to you.

Thank you, I ordered the book.

Well, my hubby was convinced it is ADHD, but I am not. Anyway, we did start him on meds over the weekend which is why I've been frantically searching out more information on the internet. IT's hard when you have a teacher saying yes, and then his therapist whom we've been seeing for a year, confirming yes (although in a YEAR, she has never mentioned ADHD- so obviously the symptoms are not in all situations!) Now I feel like I don't trust his therapist, although prior to this Dx, I really liked her.

The pediatrician started him on 20mg of Vyvanse, and it seems to have positive effects on him. He says he likes how he feels on it, can concentrate on "anything he wants to". The confusing part is, my Ped said that even if he doesn't have ADHD, he will still have positive effects from the meds.

I don't want to hurt his spirit; I just want him to have friends and stop being so impulsive with his words and actions.

Our therapist said the reason she dx'd him as ADHD, is based on our answers on the Basc and his performance on a few other tests which I can't remember the names of right now; both of which indicated impulsivity as the main issue, and that is not a characteristic inherent in gifted kids, although the intensity and social issues could be.

Sorry, I'm reposting this, as my delayed response may have gotten buried in the thread. It was delayed 48 hours, and then it was plopped in the middle of everything.

Originally Posted By: Polly
What is he like at home? How about on family trips when you are together all day long, what is he like then?

In what circumstances is he best behaved and worst behaved?

Does he currently get enough physical activity, and how much PE and recess does he get in school?

How does he get As if he refuses to do practice work? Is that more an occasional issue or why is that not a problem from the grade perspective?




He is at his best when we are in our little family bubble (again, he is an only). We have no problem managing him at home. Hubby and I are introverts, have a quiet house, and do low key stuff. We eat out a lot and strangers always comment on how well mannered he is. He loves Legos, riding his bike, playing in the sprinkler, all the normal kid stuff. However, He doesnt have any friends, and also no cousins so is mainly with adults. All.the.time. He's great on vacation.

His behavior is at its worst at school and at kid social events (birthday parties, etc). He's a very intense kid; when he's happy, he's really happy. But when he's mad, boy is he mad! He's a "know it all"; always blurts out answers to questions, tells the other kids how they should do things, gets frustrated if things aren't done his way, grabs things out of people's hands.

Birthday parties have been a nightmare (although he's only been invited to a handful of them). One example was an Olympic themed party where the kids were on teams. His team "lost" the competition, and he had a meltdown and it ruined his fun for the rest of the party. He doesn't recover well from setbacks. This is typical for him when kids are around. It's like he's so overstimulated, he loses control of his emotions.

They get 20 mins of recess a day, and PE 2x a week for 45 mins. Aside from that, he doesn't get much exercise (no extra curricular stuff, except karate for a while, which I've been meaning to start back up again). He's not into athletics, and when we have tried competitive team sports, it wasn't fun for him (or us!)

It's hard because I can see some ADHD traits, but then when I look at how generally "calm" he is in our bubble, I don't know. I do think he has some deficiencies in executive function, which is a big aspect of ADHD.

When I say he doesn't do practice work, I should have said doesn't like to, not won't. It seems there are lots of worksheets, homework, etc.; those he hates to do. Grades are based mainly on tests and projects, and on those he excels. He does have issues with writing; he has very sloppy handwriting, and doesn't enjoy creative writing (says he can't think of what to say and his hand hurts).

I'm mainly concerned about his inability to make and keep friends. This part of him definitely seems ADHD.

I'm no expert, but ADHD is supposed to present itself in all environments, so if he's fine at home, at restaurants, and temporarily in a new school environment, that's a red flag.

You mentioned your therapist gave the ADHD diagnosis in part because of answers you gave about how your DS behaves at home... I think it's worth exploring this with the therapist, because apparently she heard something in your answers other than what you expected. Maybe she's catching on to clues that you're missing, or maybe she's misunderstanding your responses.

I also note you say that you and your DH are both introverts, your DS is an only child, and he has no regular exposure to peers outside of school. Given all this context, it would make sense that he would be socially underdeveloped, because where is he supposed to learn it? All of the social misbehaviors you're reporting are normal in younger children, and they learn to work through these issues primarily through play, with both adults and peers.

As for impulsivity... he's a second-grader.

I'm not saying he's not ADHD, because again, I'm no expert. But I am saying there are alternative explanations for all of these things that merit further investigation before accepting that label.

Trisha

On many levels, I could have written your post. Same issues with school, tried grade skip and full time highly gifted program and still some of the same behavior issues (although he did like school more). He went through full neuropsych eval - connors ratings, classroom observation and additional testing to rule out other issues and did end up getting an ADHD combined diagnosis at just shy of his 8th birthday. DS is now 10.

So just some things to think about: Connors on parent end for us did not show ADHD - we are an intense family and in some ways his (our) intensitites are normal life to us - we do not see his activity level as a problem and recognize that different people are just wired differently - that's just the way our kid is. His normal was our normal - hence no problem for us. Nothwithstanding that - looking back on my end - he has always been a lot of work to parent (and a lot of joy no doubt) but he has never been and likely will never be easy to parent. We are also a family of 3 (thought DH and DS are extroverts)and in our little bubble, he was (is) manageable. In fact, for me that's enough - but the two of them like other people, so I have to get out of my bubble sometimes, and that's more of a challenge for all of us.

Working on behavior. What we did for behavior at that time was develop a chart that included 2 of the behaviors that we wanted to work on and one that was kind of a gimmee - ie a behavior that he would be relatively successful at all or most of the time. Our two target behaviors were - don't touch other kids or their stuff and list to the teacher the first time. The teacher would rate him great, good, fair, poor each day. We also included a section for her to comment on one thing he did really well during the day and we made a big deal about that thing at dinner time. At home - we had longer term goals for which he got rewards - something he wanted or a family trip, etc. Things got better (though he still struggles mightly with impulse control and asynchronous development)and I have also tried to work on other executive functioning issues with him and we have yet to medicate. However, we are currently looking into that now.

Please know that you are not alone in your issues or your doubts. I struggle with what is ADHD and what is HG+ - someone once said to me in discussing all of this: "I've been mulling this question over for 8 years, and I'm convinced that ADHD in a HG or PG kid is so 'different' that it may as well be a seperate disorder, which just coincedently responds to the same treatment. Sort of like the idea that a few genes in this direction are an evolutionary advantage, but too many tip the boat over and are a strong disadvantage. . ." I have not been mulling this over for 8 years yet, but I definitely mull. I think if your son is showing some benefit from medication that is a good sign - especially in the impulse control and in giving the focus to develop executive functing skills that come more easily to others.

Good luck.