Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Refusing to do work

We got called in for a conference with the G/T teacher for DS7. Basically, he isn't doing any of the work in his pullout class. The most recent example was researching inventors. The inventions were on one side of the page and inventors on the other. He was to Google them all and draw a line from inventor to invention. He did one of them and quit. He, quite frankly, told the teacher he was playing instead of working. Most of their work follows this model: look something up and record it in some manner. They are learning to research.

When I first posted about this, I thought this was just about writing, but this activity wasn't really writing. The teacher showed me example after example of poor work. Her conclusion is that he's not creative and he's immature.

On one hand, she tells us that his entrance scores were "rare" for their population. On the other, he's doing the worst in the class. She isn't interested in finding the disconnect at all. I asked for her help with that and she said "I'd be a millionaire if I could figure that out."

She also told us that they won't do math or science in his gifted class, which are his strengths. We were dumbfounded.

Couple of questions:
-For those of you with kids in public school, have you ever removed your child from the gifted program?
-If the school won't help me sort out why he's under-performing, where do I go? DS hasn't had formal IQ testing but I'm concerned about spending the money and then the school not caring about them anyway.

It isn't a question of ability. His last MAP scores are 207 in math and 196 in reading. In addition, the school offers little differentiation and they have already said they won't subject accelerate.

Sounds to me like your school doesn't HAVE an authentic GT program, and they aren't happy that your little camper isn't willing to march and sing with the other campers and pretend that it IS the real deal...

Have you asked your DS why he thinks his performance has been, er-- lackluster?

These are the things that stand out for me in your post:

entrance scores were "rare" for their population.

school offers little differentiation and they have already said they won't subject accelerate

won't do math or science in his gifted class

Most of their work follows this model: look something up and record it in some manner



Sounds to me like this is merely the 21st century version of "send the disruptive (GT) kids to the library so that the rest of the class can learn something..."

{sigh}

What are your other schooling options like?

I agree with HK, and also would comment that I see absolutely no connection between googling inventor names and creativity. Given that you said that most of their work follows this model, I think I've made a fair assumption.

I would ask her what they're trying to accomplish with this program. You know, in a curious I'm-just-wondering-cuz-I-want-to-know-more kind of way. If she gives you a generic answer along the lines of "We're trying to expand their horizons" or whatever, you could ask if they're planning on doing advanced work.


Hey, wait. They did this to me when I was 7.

I fail to see how typing "who invented lightbulb" into a google box and writing or drawing a line to the answer could be considered advanced or creative. Reading a good book on inventors and writing a report or recreating the invention maybe though.

HK, I asked DS about this last night. He seems unconcerned about his performance. He does ask, "are you mad at me?" and when I told him I was just trying to understand he said, "I don't like writing. Writing is boring."

Val, the GT teacher is given a curriculum and she carries it out. She said she wants to do math but has no control of what she teaches in there. She seemed very focused on tapping into their creativity. They did a project where they were asked to design their own version of the Italian flag. DS colored each block a different color and turned it in. Again, not great work. I don't see him particularly creative at story-telling, poem writing,etc. But if you ask that boy to build something out of legos or create an invention...he's pretty detailed,totally engaged and his imagination comes alive. They aren't doing anything like that though.

He would have the same GT teacher next year and I am getting the feeling that this program isn't for DS.

Wow. Coloring your own version of the Italian flag is going to help them tap into their creativity?!? Maybe I am just too much of a rabid homeschooler, but my kids are really creative -- when I let them be creative. You know, do whatever they want. Compliance and creativity don't go we'll together. Those activities sound pretty insulting, even to a 7 year old. No wonder your son doesn't care to participate!

As far as an experience of removing a child from a gifted program:

DS6s school has once a week pullouts for a couple of subjects. We pulled DS from the one he is furthest ahead in, as part of pulling him from that subject entirely (and homeschooling it). The range of abilities in the pull out was broad and the activities were not very different from in class activities. In addition it did not occur fully in the subject class time, but overlapped with something DS liked. DS is also limited by his slow writing, so we anticipated that when the pullout got around to doing anything written he would not find that rewarding. He has not missed it and the time we have gained at home is awesome.

In your DSs case I would just be sure he'd enjoy whatever his alternative is more, before pulling him.

She seemed very focused on tapping into their creativity.

Okay, I'm just going to be completely non-PC here, and point out that this kind of rhetoric is most frequently associated with pullouts that don't actually serve GIFTED populations, but bright/high-SES ones. In other words, I strongly suspect that you have ample evidence here that the "gifted" program is about moms and dads and not the kids.

(As in "MY little princess is in the GIFTED program..." <--- let's just say that I'm very familiar with this line, as our district identifies fully 30% of the student population as "GT" and doesn't do diddly squat for the top 1-2%.)

I agree. Something that might inspire creativity in this situation might be, "Let's create our own kingdoms. What do the people do? What kind of technology do they have? What are the landscape and environment like? What else can you think if to describe them? You can daw a picture of a scene from the kingdom, write a story, draw their flag, etc. It's up to you."

Do you think the teacher would be open to suggestions along the lines of this one?

HK, thanks for your candor. You have hit the nail on the head. We met with the school counselor a while back and she told us, without looking at his scores, that DS was in good company. Plenty of kids in his class just like him. She said we live in an area with lots of well-educated parents with very bright kids.

Val, I think she is bound by the county-wide curriculum. It almost seemed like she had a book of activities she was pulling from. She acted like she would work to select a few more hands-on type activities from her book. She did tell us that she and the other GT teacher were just discussing how it's such a shame there's no math or science included and how they wish they could change that, but are powerless to do so.

"-For those of you with kids in public school, have you ever removed your child from the gifted program?
-If the school won't help me sort out why he's under-performing, where do I go? DS hasn't had formal IQ testing but I'm concerned about spending the money and then the school not caring about them anyway."

Welcome! Your "gifted" program sounds like our gifted program. My DS is also 7. Last year he wasn't asked to be in the gifted program. He never finished their assessments ("too boring") and his classroom teacher didn't identify him as gifted on the behavioral scales. As the divide between what we were seeing at home (DS 6: "Mom, when is that quantum mechanics show coming on again?") vs. school (Teacher: "DS 6 doesn't know his addition facts. He keeps writing out Roman numerals on his worksheets." Here's a scary math fact - the first grade teacher didn't identify that he was answering his questions correctly using Roman numerals.) So, we had him tested. Fast forward several months he qualified and was accepted as a DYS. So, like you, I knew that he was gifted, but I didn't know HOW gifted. This has made all the difference TO US (and to him, of course, as we now are in a better position to advocate for him).

Now, if we hadn't had him tested, I think DH and I would have still arrived at roughly the same conclusion with regard to how gifted DS was. But, I think it would have taken us a little while longer to figure it out. The documentation and evaluation have been enormously helpful. DS was really starting to suffer a bit at school. We have been able to intervene a lot sooner on his behalf since we KNEW what we were dealing with. We have had some success with advocating for him at school (3 grade skip subject acceleration). We have decided to partially homeschool him. Interestingly, he did make it into the gifted program at his school. (Note, it's not really a "program". Once a week, too many kids get pulled out to watch some Brainpop and make paper airplanes.) We let him go to this "program" because he goes with his friends and it occurs during the time he is at school.

If you can swing it, I would recommend that you get your son tested.

My DD who is 6 and in second grade also refused to do work she did at a different school while in first grade. She was pulled out and did second grade work and now is repeating it after changing schools to a "more challenging" school which is worse than the one she went to last year. It is a catholic school and has no provisions to challenge gifted kids at all! I have put her in a science club after school; Spanish class after school and some reading clubs but they are all not just meeting her needs. Her math is her strongest subject and her teacher will not challenge her beyond what she teaches in class. I hate to give her extra work at home but I have to. I am a physician and so I don't always have time to teach her (plus I have 3 other kids)! She is also in a lot of extra curricular activities and so finding time is not always easy. Anyway, she loves the school because her best friend goes there but cares less for the teachers. I am hoping that the 3rd grade teacher will be more creative. By the way, we were also asked to have her tested for ADHD but after meeting with her doctor, it was decided that she was OK and that she just did not want to do her work and some of the behaviors are typical for a 6 year old. (Wont turn 7 till end of summer). If third grade does not get better, I don't know what to do!

Somewhere, it sounds as if the school was willing to work with you once you had the testing. My fear is that I'll spend the money on the testing and they still won't do anything. They've already told me they won't subject accelerate.

The school has given him tests on their own identifying that he's grade levels ahead in math and reading. The profile from his Cogat, which they gave him, shows that he needs to be working at a higher level.

Will IQ scores change their minds? I do realize that it's more than just getting the school to respond. The report will give us valuable information about DS. DH and I just keep going back-and-forth on this and maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here.

I always play the "what would it change if I learned ____" game with this kind of thing.

I predict outcomes from most to least likely and then mentally assess what, if anything, those outcomes would translate into in my family's lives in particular.

Sometimes that means testing-- and sometimes it means that NOT knowing (if there's little that it would change, or if an ambiguous result would lead to a series of dissonances that would be hard to tolerate).

I never believe in "just because" testing. I learned that lesson the hard way with our DD (not with GT stuff, but with other stuff).

We're glad we had DD tested. It was useful for us in understanding her education needs and useful for her (because she thought she was stupid because school made no sense to her whatsoever -- learning that bored >< stupid was really helpful for her). It also gave us the courage to attempt to get her what she needed, even though it didn't affect the outcome.

See, no teacher or principal, at either of her public schools, ever cared one tiny little bit. Most didn't bother to read the test report even when I provided it. The ones who were creative and flexible didn't care (though they were easier to deal with). The ones who were rigid and repressive didn't care. When she was doing great they didn't care. When she was struggling they didn't care.

It wasn't just that they were skeptical (though some of them obviously were -- and in these cases providing the data made things worse), but that they didn't seem to think it was relevant. And this, more than anything else, is what caused us to pull her. I'd have been more sympathetic if they at least acknowledged her intelligence, even if they felt they couldn't do anything about it. But over and over they reinforced the idea that being PG affected her education the same way that hair color does... that is, not at all.

Hi Niki,
I agree with Howler Karma regarding testing and what would change if you learned your son's IQ scores. For us, it helped us understand our DD a little better in working with the child psychologist who administered the test. She was helpful to us in understanding some of the nuances between local school districts and their GT programs as well as private schools in our area.
When we met with the school and the teacher regarding our DD's WISC-IV results, they seemed less interested in the WISC results and more interested in the CoGAT. Ultimately, it didn't matter for us, because they didn't change their approach.


Have you looked at other schools? It was amazing to me as to the differences between schools in regards to academics and GT programs.

Thank you, HK. Your process brings me back to the same conclusion every time-I don't believe testing will change much in our present circumstances. I think I start to doubt my instincts about DS and his abilities when the school keeps pointing out the negative in him. It's just sad to me. They will acknowledge that he's bright, they just won't do anything about it. In fact, the counselor said they won't even consider making changes until his behavior has improved. Sorry...now I'm just rambling because it all frustrates me so much.

Gardengirl, I'm visiting a private school next week, so we will see if that's better. As far as public schools, I'm told the GT curriculum is the same at all schools in our district. However, I wonder if it would be helpful to speak with GT coordinators at other schools in the district to see if they are a bit more knowledgeable and more flexible.

Gardengirl, did you visit different schools within your district? Did they welcome you or wonder what you were up to??

I did visit another school in our district. We only had one other option. (Because we got a SINA letter, it told us what school(s) we could transfer to if we elected to do that. There was only one that had room for a first grader.) The principal at that school asked if our principal knew I was looking at other schools. I said no and asked him to keep the information to himself, that we were just exploring options.

After realizing it wasn't going to be much different at that school either, we decided to look at private schools. After looking at the schools and talking with the principals at length, we decided to make the move. The class sizes are smaller where DD is enrolled now, the work seems more challenging and what I see come home is at a much higher level. No tally marks, either!!! DD told me yesterday how happy she was that she transferred.

Is it possible to meet with a child psychologist or counselor who has experience with gifted kids and has some knowledge of the schools in your area? That really helped us.

Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions or need to vent.

Boy, we are in the same sitaution. DS7 refused to complete class quizzes and interim assesment tests at school ("too easy") and would pull out his favorite book (by Isaac Asimov) and start reading it in the middle of a quizz. Did not go well with school...