Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy 1st grader evaluated at 4th to 6th grade.

Hello,
My first grader son was recently evaluated at 4th to 6th grade level academically by the Dept of Education in NYC. He is currently in a Blue Ribbon Award Catholic school which does not want to do anything special for him. We live in NJ, so the G&T programs in NYC do not apply to us and local ones are not good enough. What should we do next? We cannot currently afford more that catholic private education, but we are desperate to place our son in the right environment for him. He reads college level science books, philosophy books, anatomy, math, history - nothing can stop him when he self-studies. But the school is stopping him from maximizing his potential. We have not formally tested his IQ, but he does adult free online IQ tests in a breeze and usually gets around 145-148. Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Refusing to differentiate is a huge red flag. Every student deserves to make roughly one year of progress each year, even if they start out ahead (this goes for all subjects).

A lot of people on this forum have found that homeschooling was the best option for their children, but of course that isn't a possibility for everyone. I know many have also had luck with Montessori schools since they allow children to go at their own pace (but be careful because not all Montessori schools function in the same way).

Do you have any more information about the testing that was done? It's hard to get too specific without more information.

Free on line IQ tests are not valid. The only valid test is performed by a professional and cannot be repeated within a certain period of time (at least a year). The on line test is probably testing aquifers knowledge like the other testing you have had done. I can't help you with the other problems but d the on line tests.

Do the people who administered the tests have any suggestions?

Welcome!

You have found a great place for support.

Many parents of gifted students find they must supplement at home because their child's voracious appetite for learning is not well-served in school. Parents often "afterschool" with "enrichment" based on their child's interests. For families on a shoestring budget, this may include frequenting the public library and internet searches for information and activities.

Where to start...?

There is a Mensa for Kids Excellence in Reading Award Program, easily found online.

You may wish to look for local support. Some NAGC State affiliates offer conferences or other activities where parents can become acquainted with local resources, including those who perform IQ assessments. You mention both New York and New Jersey in your post. The NAGC affiliate for New York is AGATE (Advocacy for Gifted And Talented Education) http://www.agatenewyork.org/ The NAGC affiliate for New Jersey is NJAGC (New Jersey Association for Gifted Children) http://www.njagc.org/

The Davidson Database is a rich source of information: http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/ You might want to look into the Davidson Young Scholars ( DYS ) program.

Interested parents may want to better understand their children, and the book A Parents Guide to Gifted Children may prove helpful. Here is one book review: http://giftedkids.about.com/od/wheretofindhelp/fr/parents_guide.htm

Hoagies Gifted Education Page lists many resources.

Library of Congress (loc.gov) has pages of educational resources, including a collection for kids and families.

Some parents find that through gentle persistent advocacy efforts they may convince their school to provide appropriate challenge for their child. Davidson Institute for Talent Development offers several guidebooks, including an advocacy guidebook which shares tips and approaches for successful preparation for advocacy and partnering with schools: http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/Article/Davidson_Young_Scholars___Guidebooks_375.aspx

Hope some of this helps.

Sorry. I forgot to say welcome. In your position if I could afford it though I would get a formal IQ test to go with the achievement. If you are in the US and can get your child accepted as a DYS they help with advice and advocacy. I imagine your child is very gifted but you are likely to get the "let her just be a child" or "we educate the whole child" lines and IQ results may help with that (or may not depending on how useless the person is).

Hello all and thank you so much for all your advice and support. I am sorry to reply late, as I was traveling for 10 days. Meantime, we received the formal results from the evaluation by the New York City Department of Education and they look as follows -
WISC-IV - full score is 132, Very Superior Range.
WJ-III Achievement - broad math is 6.6 grade, broad reading is 5.8 grade.
DS is in 1st grade now and will be 7 years old in 2 weeks.
Would these above results be enough to become a MENSA member?
Would MENSA accept the results from testing by the Board of Education?
Have you ever heard about catholic schools accelerating grades? I seem to hear and read that they do not do it on principle of all children being equal.
Thank you again.

DS was also described as profoundly gifted intellectually by the psychologist evaluating him.

Welcome Lily1972,

Whether or not you find a Catholic school which will accelerate is going to depend on the actual school. The religious-backed private schools in my area (a long way away from you) do not accelerate and, as you said, provide the same curriculum to all students for elementary through middle school. That said, they also tend to provide a more rigorous and academically challenging curriculum that our local public schools, so they do often attract intellectually gifted children. If you are open to considering a non-Catholic option, you might want to check into other private schools in your area.

I'd also suggest not over-worrying simply based on test scores. Your ds is a very bright child according to his test scores - but scoring at a "5.8" grade level, for instance, on the WJ-III does not mean exactly the same thing as saying "your son will fit in perfectly if we put him in a 5th grade 8th month class today". What it means is that his score is equivalent to what the average (50th percentile) 5th grader (8th month of school) would have scored when taking the same test. So yes, it means he's reading above grade level, but no, it doesn't mean he needs to actually be in 5th grade at this point in time. I hope that makes sense! (And I hope I described the scoring correctly).

Chances are that there are going to be at least a few other kids in his grade level at school who are also reading as far ahead, or who are capable of working ahead in math. One way to help provide your ds enrichment, if you can't change up anything through the school, is to offer to volunteer in the school once or twice per week working with a group of children who are able to work ahead. That's just one idea for providing enrichment, other ideas include working with your ds outside of school or finding a mentor or camps or classes that will give him intellectual challenges in the areas he finds interesting.

Re the psychologist's comment that your ds is profoundly gifted intellectually, typically the term "profoundly" intellectual refers to a specific range on the IQ scale (I am not going to quote it for the WISC since I might be off - I'm sure someone else on here knows the range better than I do :)). You'll notice the report for Full Scale IQ you were given says "Very Superior Range" - that's an example of the verbiage that is used to describe the number ranges on the WISC. "Profoundly" gifted (for the WISC) would be a higher score. It's possible your child had a score in the profoundly gifted range in either VCI or PRI etc - these are the categories that are combined to give the FSIQ - but the FSIQ itself isn't "profoundly" gifted. BUT - it's just a number. You clearly have a very bright ds, and chances are he's going to be bored sitting through a day full of academics geared for the typical child. You'll most likely have to advocate for him to find appropriate intellectual challenges.

The thing I wouldn't recommend is going to a school and hoping for acceleration etc based on telling them your ds is profoundly gifted. Having achievement test results and examples of actual work samples that demonstrate mastery of required curriculum typically makes for more successful advocacy in my limited experience. The WJ-III is a start - but again, in our experience, it's not as helpful as having some of the other achievement tests such as ITBS, MAP, etc.

Hope some of that helps!

polarbear

ps - I think that your ds' WISC score will qualify him for Mensa, but I don't know for sure - you can find the info on the Mensa website, and it will also list what you need to send in as proof of the score.

Welcome Lily1972,
We just transferred our DD who is in first grade to a Catholic school that is also a Blue Ribbon school. They have a part time Talented and Gifted teacher who works with kids in grades 3-8. They do not have any differentiation at this point for her. However, and it's a big however, the work academically is much better than what we saw at her previous school. (We chose to transfer because she wasn't happy at her public school and we didn't have the option of transferring to a public school of our choice.)

I am currently ok with the work I see her doing and bringing home. Not sure if it will always stay that way, but today we feel good about what she's learning and work she's doing. We have our first conference tonight, so we will learn more. She was previously going to the Talented and Gifted teacher for 20-30 minutes once or twice a week. I don't think our DD's needs were met in that time and certainly weren't met in the classroom at that school.

I think your son would be eligible for Mensa. Our daughter's scores were very similar to your son's and she is eligible to join. This is a great community to seek advice and learn from others.

We talked at length with the Child Psychologist about our concerns for our daughter's education and she was very helpful in providing additional insight about different schools we had looked at. She was also helpful in guiding us to Davidson Young Scholars (which I still need to complete the application.) I would also suggest talking with the Child Psychologist that administered your son's test about their thoughts on acceleration and educational settings. \

We do a lot outside of school. Our DD is fascinated by the human body, specifically red blood cells. So far, we're in a good place. There are also some great summer day camps such as Camp Invention (a national organization). Also, some colleges offer classes/workshops for Talented and Gifted children. Northwestern University does some on line, just to name a couple of options.

Good luck

My daughter was only able to accelerate a grade thanks to a Catholic school. She was very unhappy in kindergarten and the Catholic school agreed to allow her to transfer there mid year and to place her in first grade. Once she was there, it became clear that they intended to have her repeat first grade. However, they let her move up once they saw her standardized test scores. They didn't provide any differentiation while we was there (they told me that the next year's work would be harder, that Common Core was harder, etc,) and we moved her to a different public school later. However, she was happy there and I am grateful they gave her the opportunity to skip a grade that she wouldn't have had anywhere else. I think individual schools differ and some might have been more willi to provide differentiation. Part of the problem was that it was a very small school and there were limited options. I don't think anywhere else in our region would have allowed the grade skip; other schools even tried to convince us to have her repeat a grade to get back with her age cohort. So I'm very grateful to the Catholic school because the grade skip has worked out very well.

Thank you all so much for your replies and thoughts. It feels so comforting to know that you understand the issue.
Our DS has been in this Blue Ribbon catholic school since 4 years old and they have known him for 3 years. They know his work and abilities. It truly is a great school with a standard probably a year ahead in terms of what the kids do there by comparison to public schools at the same age. Yet, our son only goes to school to socialize. He does not learn much there, and most of this knowledge comes from self-study. He is bored in class and gets in trouble playing with his supplies, talking, etc. He refused to complete quizzes twice, saying they were too easy (and ended up in the principal’s office). We worry that if he stays in an environment that does not challenge him, he will continue getting in trouble and only associate school with play and boredom. We would like him to keep up his passion for knowledge, which he fully fuels at home by himself, but also not assume that school will always be easy for him.
Catholic schools are so great - top quality standards, good morals, structure and discipline. Yet, they do not seem to recognize when a child is really different. And they do not have a provision to help those very advanced, yet there is always help for those lagging behind.
We understand that test-placing at 5th or 6th grade level does not mean that's where our DS belongs. In fact, he placed at 9th grade level in applied math, 8th grade in word identification (he reads adult college material), 4th grade in math fluency. We just think that skipping one grade would truly help him be with kids more like him and challenge him more, keeping him away from getting in trouble. And since he is only 2 months away from the age grade cut-off, he would not be that different from kids who are a year ahead grade-wise. The gifted program in our city is practically non-existent (1 teacher for 3 schools and all elementary grades). We cannot afford Montessori now. If only our school, which is already so academically advanced, saw positives in our son instead of a boy who disturbs in class and needs to get on with the program like the rest. And the funny thing is, he is extremely social and is loved by his friends at school and outside. He gets along with older kids just as well and loves to talk to them, because they know more.
I have a feeling you understand my pain...

Yes, I can understand your pain. DS had an absolutely awful 1st grade year at a private (secular) school. We now have him in a Catholic school that has accelerated him two grades in math. He gets some additional individualized (project-based, has written a play, researched traditions, etc.) as well. In this case, the principal is very familiar with the needs of gifted children from a prior school with a higher-than-average number of same, probably due to proximity to a leading university (which also has a fantastic G&T program). We drive right past another Catholic school to get him to this school.

Even with that, we have had to share information about his educational needs with his classroom teacher, who has not had a child quite like him. We are fortunate in that she is experienced, positive and unfazed by boy behaviour. We take things one year at a time, but really, are finding so much has to do with how the principal and teacher(s) think about gifted children. If you look at other Catholic schools, I would be very open about your son and listen extremely carefully to what they say.

It is definitely, as are all things, in my opinion, up to the principal, with varying teacher influence. While it is great to think all kids are talented and capable, it doesn't seem very bright to think those talents and capabilities are identical from child to child.

FWIW, we had talked to another Catholic school, in another state, before DS first grade year (we moved that summer). That one would accelerate in classroom, at least in math, although primarily with advanced worksheets (not ideal). DS is 7 and in 2nd grade.

We are not in Chicago, but are in the midwest.

Do you have other school options outside of the current Catholic school?

The local public schools are not an option, unfortunately. My husband has a startup company and we do not have a lot of extra cash for a great and more flexible private school. Catholic school options are great as a principle, as their standards are already much higher, plus they are not as expensive.
I am thrilled to hear that some catholic schools look at advanced children as an opportunity instead of trouble! Thank you for this ray of light!

I am curious: how did you get the NYC DOE to administer these tests to your son? My understanding is that they use the OLSAT and NNAT-2 for regular G&T testing and that applicants must pursue private testing for admission to Hunter at the elementary level. I am sure many parents would love to have access to the WISC-IV and WJ-III through DOE.

Azucena - I am not sure why he was administered these tests and not others. We did not ask for anything specific in terms of how he would be tested. I guess they made that decision. How are these tests different or more valuable from OLSAT or NNAT-2 if you say that others would love to have access to these? DS was not tested for G&T, he was tested for academic advancement in general because we assumed he misbehaved in class out of boredom (true) while the school said he had social, focus and behavioral issues (not true). He was tested because of his behavior in class.
As always, thank you.

Dear All,
I am so happy to report that our school is accelerating out son to second grade staring on Monday, in 4 days. They recognized that his case was special and justifiable and decided to break their 80-year old tradition of never promoting students to higher grades. We are so happy and relieved. And most of all – happy for our son, who will be more challenged at school, but also able to use and show his real abilities with more difficult material.
There is always hope, it seems!

This is wonderful news!

Great news!

Great news! And a good reminder that just because a school says they don't do acceleration or never have done acceleartion, that doesn't mean that they can't. Good job advocating for your DS!

Thank you so much to all of you for support and understanding. Today is our son's first day in second grade. He was so happy to go this morning. I am so anxious, proud, happy for our persistence, and most importantly, so convinced that we have to advocate for what is best for our children. Because only us the parents know the real inside story. Perhaps subjectively, but yet factually.