Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy help me get centered for next meeting

So school has called another meeting. DS7 is subject accelerated 3 years in math. He is in 2nd grade and goes to 5th. We partially homeschool all other subjects. The school has decided that they are not happy about it. So, every month or so, they call me to a meeting to gripe about something else. I continue to go to these meetings because they are about my child and I am trying to keep a positive relationship going - I do hope for divine intervention!

But sometimes I get lost in the meetings as they really try to knock DS down. Can anyone just give me some guidance on how you stay centered during these meetings?

I'd probably make a list ahead of time of all the things that YOU think are working well, and why. As well as any needs that are not being met.

How does your partial homeschooling work, and in what regard are they not happy? Who exactly is not happy? (Everyone, or just someone?)

How have they knocked him down in the past?

DeeDee

DW credits me for being able to keep an emotional even keel during these kinds of meetings, and as a result I end up doing most of the talking (she starts getting upset and then doesn't trust herself to speak without making things worse). I maintain by keeping a singular focus on our purpose. The school is likely to ambush or distract us with a whole lot of complaints that have no relevance, and I have a habit of redirecting the conversation back to what we're all there to do.

The school isn't happy? Not my concern. I'm not there to provide the adults in the room with happiness. I'm there to ensure my child gets an appropriate education. Any conversation topics that don't relate to that aren't really worth my time.

Can I borrow you for our meeting with DS's math teacher this afternoon?

ITA. Having my list of key points in front of me helps me do that too.

I think what you don't want is to go in feeling defensive-- they are calling the meeting because they are annoyed (about something), but you don't have to feel that you are up against the wall about that. Instead, you can turn it into a troubleshooting session framed in mutual terms:

--hear what they have issue with, and make notes
--but then make sure they know what YOU think is really going on, and give them evidence as needed to support your points
--ask them to solve what YOU think the actual problem is
--only after hearing their solutions, offer solutions that are acceptable to you; hopefully these can be offered as "tweaks" to their solutions, but if not, offer yours anyway.

You don't have to accept any solutions that are unacceptable to you. You can always ask to continue the meeting after gathering more data or information.

I like the suggestion to make a list of things you want to address. I'm going to try that as I go in with DH to meet with our son's math teacher.

My situation is different. I'll be going in asking how she can help us curb ds's math anxieties caused by timed tests that he's still being subjected to in compacted 7th/8th grade math, and also asking about the zero given to everyone in the class for talking. So my hope is to invite the teacher to work with us, to convey our willingness to work with her and respect the authority she has over her classroom, while at the same time point out the fact that maybe such a disciplinary action only hurts the kids who never needed it in the first place.

And all the while trying very hard to keep the anxiety and irritation from flashing neon on my face.

somewhereonearth, I wish you luck and fortitude. I'll be thinking of you.

KADmom, there are some posts on this blog that might be useful to you.

http://stemprofmomadvocate.weebly.com/1/post/2014/01/step-2-collect-evidence.html

The evidence collecting post seems particularly relevant, perhaps the "dos" and "dont's" as well.

Thanks!!

DS goes to school in the morning. He has 1 academic subject there and after lunch he goes home where he has the rest of his academic subjects. They are not happy that we are doing this at all. They (principal, some teachers) are most concerned because other families are finding out and they are concerned that lots of other families are going to do the same. This is ludicrous for lots of reasons. The real issue is that they don't want other families to find out because it will be apparent to them that we are partial homeschooling because the school refuses to meet DS's needs. The school prides itself on meeting everyone's needs, so this does not fit together well.

The way that they knock him down is to criticize him and put him down because he is not "perfect"....and they believe that he should be because he is PG. So, they pull out worksheets that DS completed where he got a bunch wrong and say things like, "He's not as smart as you think." Or they say that DS is only interested in physics because we bribe him (really - they have said this..."what child would be interested in quantum physics?! It's completely boring to a 6 year old. You are obviously paying him to be interested in it, for your own ego.")

Really these meetings have become a flogging of sorts. We arrive and they just start the assault on how poorly we are doing with homeschooling. It is apparent to them because DS "can't" do the grade level worksheets at school. So they are pushing to get him back full time. No matter that we had him tested and he is ready to jump 2 grade levels ahead.

Anyway, I always remain calm but it is upsetting, I always come out feeling like DS is just a game piece to them. I always try to steer the conversation back to facts, data and my son's needs.

Thanks! Have you ever walked out of a meeting if you felt that your time was being wasted?

quote=DeeDee]I'd probably make a list ahead of time of all the things that YOU think are working well, and why. As well as any needs that are not being met. [/quote]

I think the idea of putting together a list of what you see as working well is really key, particularly if you feel they are trying to push you out of partial homeschooling.


Do you think there might be any other reasons too? I always like to think through all the possible concerns, and then come up with my response to that: either why I don't see it as a concern or be able to show the concern isn't really "real", or be able to show that even though it's real and it's a concern, it still is less important than the overall goal of meeting your ds' needs. In your case, I can see that the school might be worried that other parents will find out about your ds' arrangement as being something school staff may not want to happen, but I am wondering if there might not be some other things going on too. For instance, in our school district, a student who isn't enrolled full-time doesn't count as a full-time student for state funding, so the school would be losing $ by not having a student enrolled full time. Another possibility is just dealing with not having him there all day when schedules flux for some reason that is out-of-the-ordinary. Perhaps the principal is getting pressure from someone above him in the district saying "we don't do this" or maybe your ds' teacher is not happy about the arrangement. I'm probably an over-preparer but I'd think through and have an answer in response to all of the situations I could think of that they might have an issue with, and I'd write down my answers just in case I got caught up in stress during the meeting and forgot something I wanted to say. I tend to go into meetings with lots of notes and work examples etc - and I don't usually have to refer to any of it, but it helps me feel confident going into the meeting feeling like I have those things to rely on if I do get nervous or frustrated.

If you walk into the meeting and are presented with a long list of concerns that you haven't anticipated and don't know how to reply to at the time, it's ok to walk out. We were advised to do this during our IEP eligibility process by our advocate. You can do it without being confrontational - simply say, "This is a lot of information to think through. We are going to stop this meeting now and we will schedule a meeting at a later date after we've had a chance to review the meeting."



I think I would have a plan in my back pocket re how the school can meet his needs if they are asking you to drop partial homeschooling. Note - I doubt they can make a plan work, but I think it's not a bad idea to lay out on the table (once again) a reminder of what your ds needs if he is going to return to full-time enrollment. Be sure you have data to back up those needs (test scores, evals, work samples, homeschool records etc).



OK, I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a minute here and ask "If he's PG, why isn't he getting better scores on his work?" I ask myself questions like that, and then figure out the answer. I think it's important to try to go into this type of meeting with an open mind. Even though the school has an agenda, they may also have some valuable information for you about your ds and how he's functioning in school. If he's getting answers wrong on worksheets, I'd want to know how often (infrequently, randomly, consistently), how is he doing on tests, is he engaged when he is working in class? What is it like when he does his homework (I'm guessing this happened in math, since that's the core subject he's at school for?).


This would *really* bother me to have the school staff say this to me. I would respond with the honest truth - that I was insulted and that we need to keep the focus of the meeting on my ds' needs.

I also would strongly consider asking if you could record the meetings. Tell them it's for your notes. And check to see what the law is in your state re recording school meetings. The reason I'd record is simple - I suspect it will shut down any talk that may be bullying on the part of the school staff.


What do you show the school to prove your ds is making adequate progress at home? What type of things does your school district expect you to keep as a record of progress?


Well, he's doing a different subject at school than at home, right? So if he's having trouble completing worksheets in that one subject correctly (the school subject) you need to address that issue as one issue, in and of itself, not connected to his partial homeschooling - unless they can prove a connection such as he's missing instruction because they change the time of day when they give the instruction and he's not there.

The challenge for you, I think, is if he's not performing well at school in his one academic subject, you're going to have to prove without a doubt that he's receiving good instruction at home and making good progress.


Which tests are you basing this on? Was it a comprehensive achievement test used by your school for all kids (such as MAP or ITBS?) or was it ability/achievement through a psych? The reason I ask is - we've found very little buy-in from school staff on ability testing as a reason to do anything in terms of acceleration. The proof of need for acceleration that's been easiest for us to have accepted is achievement on either grade level or out-of-grade level tests or end-of-year tests in the subject that are given routinely by the school district to all students. As you get farther up in math, you also have to be able to show you've successfully completed the previous year's course (this is once you're above elementary level math).

Good luck with your meeting!

polarbear

Fantastic polarbear! This is all wonderful!

"What do you show the school to prove your ds is making adequate progress at home? What type of things does your school district expect you to keep as a record of progress?"

In our state, I am required to show NOTHING to the school about progress at home. In fact, I don't even have to answer their questions. The burden is 100% on the school to demonstrate that I am failing at homeschooling. And failure, in my state, means that I am educating my son at a standard below the school's standard. So, the school is completely aware that they can't really do anything here. And of course, the standard at home is way above the standard at school, so there is nothing for them to attack.

In thinking about all the possibilities, I think that the principal and some of the teachers may feel embarrassed. They are always speaking to parents about how individualized their education is and how wonderful it is. And here I am pulling my son out of school everyday because it's none of those things. And the staff has been really good about convincing other parents that things are really great at school. Other parents who weren't satisfied have left. But I am a source of embarrassment for them because I'm still there and I'm a reminder every day that what they are doing isn't working.

I will think some more about this. Thanks!

Be dismissive of their "evidence". It doesn't prove anything anyway.

I agree...record the meeting.

Shut down the bullying.

It is truly amazing how once the recorder is on the table the tone can change.

I keep thinking about recording our IEP meetings. It's not even for any other reason really except to remember and keep track of what's been discussed, who feels how etc. I do wonder if it would stop some of the more offensive statements (such as "accommodating ds's disability is short-changing him" and "DS knows if he says he's bored everyone jumps"). But really it's all such a whirl and such I'd really love to record to just keep track of things and follow up etc. but on the one hand while advocates and experts encourage recording, others warn it'll offend the school, make them angry and defensive, etc. so I was thinking of recording it on the sly, just for my own use to keep track.

What are others experience with recording these mtgs? Should op really record her meeting?

Definitely do NOT record on the sly: that is illegal in many states. Most places in the US you need to inform people you are recording the conversation and get permission.

For a while it was absolutely necessary that we record every meeting. It really did instantly change the tone people used to speak to us. For the better.

My procedure:
--unpack papers etc. for meeting, place recorder on table

--as meeting is starting, say "I hope it's OK with everyone if I record... it's so hard to think and take notes at the same time." (your "whirl" comment is good.)

--district representative then says "You can record, as long as if the recording is needed later, we can have a copy"

--I say "of course, no problem" and we start the meeting.

In a contentious situation, we have found this a very valuable tool, both for making people conscious of what they say to us in the meeting (insults, implied or stated, go away) and giving us a clear record of what school personnel are offering or refusing to do for our child.

We have never needed to deploy the recording as evidence, but the recording was useful in keeping us out of court at various points. If you collect the right evidence, you are more likely to be able to resolve the situation without resorting to due process proceedings or worse.

If you record the meeting. The school has the right (and really should) record the meeting...so they have a copy too.

somewhereonearth, is this an optional or charter school, or is it your neighborhood school? I'm not sure that makes a difference, but I'm just curious

I was also thinking about focus of the meeting a bit more - if the school's purpose in holding the meeting is to tell you they don't want your ds homeschooled, I am not sure that info about how he's performing how he *is* in their school is relevant, so in the meeting, I'd be very specific when things are brought up in terms of asking for clarity what the purpose of each talking point is - for instance, if they produce worksheets that aren't 100% correct, acknowledge what they have shown you and then clarify - what is the reason this is being discussed? Is there a concern that ds needs more help with his classwork? Is there a concern with class placement etc. None of that has anything to do with the homeschool part of his day. If they attempt to tie it into an argument against your current partial homeschooling situation, politely direct them back on track - ask them to tackle one discussion at a time, finish up the worksheet issue and they you can move on to their concerns about homeschooling (where once again, be sure they aren't mixing up unrelated issues as proof it's not working). It's so easy for meetings like this to boomerang all over the place as people start talking - so it's really important to just keep yourself nudging them back OT, one thing at a time, and don't let them confusion unrelated issues.


This is the same in our state too, but I think in this situation, if you are confronted with statements suggesting your partial homeschooling isn't working out satisfactorily in terms of anything *you* are doing, then it would be potentially helpful in advocating to show them proof of what your ds has learned and accomplished at home.

Best wishes for your meeting!

polarbear

We are at a charter school.

So, the meeting went very very well. I went in just prepared to discuss meeting my son's needs. I had to steer the conversation a few times back to that. But they seem to have come around to feeling much, much better about our homeschooling. So, we are now doing it with more of their "blessing". Perhaps this means that they will stop harassing us. (Based on what I hear from DS, DS has started "showing himself" more at school. I think the teachers are starting to see that truly accommodating DS at school would take far more than an "enrichment worksheet" once a week.)

The big issue seems to be that the 5th grade teacher is getting cold feet about the acceleration. She is concerned that DS cannot keep up with the writing aspect (everyday math, folks). He DOES struggle with that. Mainly just with his speed of output. But the bottom line is that he has what would be an A- in the class just based on tests and quizzes. When the teacher figures in other things (minute math drills, the lack of shown work in assignments) it brings DS down to a C+. This doesn't bother DH and I in the least. But this teacher appears to be concerned and wants to send him back to 4th grade math.

Our task, as we see it, is to do some hand holding with the 5th grade teacher. We've thanked her for her ability to experiment and allow DS in her class. She really likes DS and helps him out a lot. But in the grand scheme of things, we think this subject acceleration has been a great success. So what if DS can't keep up with the notetaking or cutting with scissors? He feels challenged and is enjoying himself. I can't really see the problem actually. (Pipe up friends, if you can see a problem here!)

No, but there were some early on where I probably should have, looking back in hindsight. Like most of us here, it took me several tries and finding out what strategies didn't work before I found ones that did.

Thanks for the update somewhere - it sounds like it went really well!



FWIW, I would counter the teacher's concern that this is an age-related or grade-skip issue - I suspect it's personality-related and strength-related. I am pretty danged sure she probably also has some 5th graders in the class who aren't all that verbose at explaining word problems or extremely quick on mad-minute drills. Like you, this wouldn't concern me as a parent at all. It sounds like they aren't going to push him out of his math class, so for now I'd just ignore the teachers concerns. If you want to, you could try to coach your ds at home a bit on what the teacher expects to see in answers on word problems and pay attention to make sure he's finishing all of his homework worksheets (if he has any).


Did they really bring up cutting with scissors? And are they really taking lots of notes? Both of those are things that my kids have *not* had in 5th grade classes... so I'm kinda guessing that they can't be *that* significant of an issue


It all sounds good from here! I'm glad your meeting went well!

polarbear

The horrors... paper cutting, coloring within lines, and five page research papers on two digit multiplication will only get worse in sixth grade. These are all critical skills to the modern job market. Standardized testing relies heavily on filling in circles. Fifth grade math teachers have long been the known guardians of the gateway to lifetime success. And the faster he goes, the harder it will be to apply brakes in time to prevent tailend collisions in college. Might as well get a copy of the worse case scenario handbook and start studying.

The above views do not represent the actual views of the writer of this post. Those responsible have been sacked.

Hahahahahahaha! Among other complaints is that DS takes a REALLY long time to work the pencil sharpener. I am just proud of myself that I didn't laugh during the meeting - cause the teacher was dead serious on this being a "problem".

Did they really bring up cutting with scissors? And are they really taking lots of notes? Both of those are things that my kids have *not* had in 5th grade classes... so I'm kinda guessing that they can't be *that* significant of an issue

Oh yes! They write a tremendous amount. It's kind of ridiculous. But I can't have it all my way! DS loves going to 5th grade. He grumbles about the amount of homework (also excessive - 30-40 problems a night). But it's the only homework he gets. School can't be perfect. I am certainly not going to start complaining about the amount of homework when we are looking at only about 5 months left now.

Not a problem that I can see. In fact, my perfectionist DD8 with a single grade skip + G/T class (which is advertised to represent another grade's worth of acceleration) brought home her report card last night, prompting an explanation of why her "B" grades represent a real win for her placement.

Well, now, really -- who doesn't? Pencil sharpeners are fun. And pencils these days are excrement. They never sharpen on both sides at the same time, no matter what kind of sharpener you use. And just when you think it's going well, the lead breaks and you have to sharpen off a bunch more.

Change your IEP to include (1) mechanical pencils, or (2) a para to assist DS with the sharpening of pencils in a timely manner, or (3) the teacher provides a supply of freshly sharpened pencils on DS' desk every day.

I enjoyed reading your update! If the teacher keeps on about her "concerns", you could suggest that you will work on it over the summer with him (I giggled to think of drilling pencil sharpening each day!)

Funny because my child skipped a grade this year and currently the biggest complaint is about pencils, lack of, losing of and problems sharpening. He got 166 pencils for Christmas. Every gift he opened had pencils in addition to the real gift (as a gag). This weekend we will be sharpening a bunch.