Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Super secret math pullout - so frustrated!

What would you do if your school had a super secret math pullout after the normal advertised pullout where this secret group lessons, the criteria for assessment, reassessment, appeal were not advertised? NOTHING!

I think all services and curriculum should be transparent. Am I crazy?

Do I get the principal involved? Don't they just support their staff? And do I take it higher than that? Am I becoming what they probably call one of those problem parents, right?

Hmm. Well, personally, if I wasn't getting information from the teacher, I'd send a polite message to the principal along the lines of "I'm confused; I heard about this program but can't get any information about it. Can you help me understand?"

There isn't much information in your message. What do you know about this pullout? Are you sure it's for GT kids and not lower-performing kids? Etc.

This sort of thing seems to go on at our school to a certain extent. For example, we have what seems a bit of a secret math group... When I asked ,at the end of last year, if there were advanced groups, ability grouping, math pull-out whatever in 2nd grade (there was allegedly none in 1st), I was given a pretty emphatic "no" and told that that stuff doesn't start till 3rd and that they would differentiate in the class if necessary. Then, a few weeks into school this year (3rd grade), I get a call from the teacher that DS would be in an differentiated math pull-out group (sigh of relief - one day where DS will be engaged and excited). It is not part of ATP (ie kids who are in ATP are not automatically in the group and kids who are not in ATP can be in the group). Ds tells me who is in it and who isn't... but I didn't know anything until after the fact. No one was informed that all the kids would be given a 'pre-test' and if they passed they get into the group and if they do not they do not. I am sure the school has it's reasons. I can partially understand - in this area, it would pretty quickly turn into a status thing and parents would probably get their kids extra tutoring just before in an attempt to get the child in the group jusy to be able to brag, etc. I'm just happy DS got in b/c he loves it. But it only meets once a week.

I was told by DS's teacher it is a fluid group. And this appears to be true. I notice they get these little extra credit sections on their test that they are allowed to do if they want. If the child passes that section, they can be added to the "group" Ds will say "oh we got a new person in our group today." However the general population of parents is not aware of this. I think they just think the "section" is merely for extra credit and not being used additionally to qualify kids for the math group. Perhaps your school has another opportunity coming up? I can relate if my DS who loves math and is desperate for more math stimulation found out there was a special math group that he was not permitted to be in he would be devastated.

Agreed. Some possible thoughts to consider for making a list of questions, for the teacher or principal:
1) What is the format of the program? (for example: Computer-based? Text book? Worksheets? Instructor-led?)
2) Is there a syllabus, class calendar, list of assignments, etc? (any guiding document?)
3) At what intervals (how often) is the program designed to admit new students? (each term, each year, etc)
4) How many pupils can the program accommodate (What is the current constraint for the class size - number of computers, etc? Is the constraint expandable? What is required to admit one more? two more? etc? Is there an absolute limit (non-expandable constraint)?)
5) Is there a waiting list? (Also, are any children leaving the group?)
6) Based on (test score criteria?) how many students are in line for consideration before ds? (wait list?)
7) Can DS have access to #1 & 2 above, to catch-up to where others are?
8) Alternate way to catch-up (study at home, use own resources, what are the identified targets/goals?
9) How soon can ds join the class?

After achieving placement for your child, remember what it felt for him to be left out. Working on principle, see what you can do to have the entry requirements for this and all other groups documented and accessible to all.

There was once a group tasked with designing a system, without knowing what each person's place in that system would be. This resulted in them building the most "fair" system possible, where each position had favorable aspects. I often think of that when GT advocacy issues come up... how different it can feel for a child to be on each side of the fence.

Good luck with this.

I have no helpful advice (However, looks like you have some).

We were told a similar 96% and our ds (1st grade) was 99%. The response we got was" the group in 1st grade is really small and there's kids smarter than our ds. Next year, the group will be bigger, so if he stays 99%; he should get in" what?? Mind you, we are at public school- a good district, but still.

Sorry- didn't see your latest post! That is EXACTLY how I am feeling! Coupled with my observations when I volunteer are that ds is "helping others", not doing work.

I really think I want to homeschool. I just need to convince dh...

On the plus side no homework means you can afterschool without having to waste time doing basic homework first.

While it is upsetting, this type of thing will repeat itself in areas other than school. I have seen my kids get shut out of sports stuff - some of which at least started in the rec league which is supposed to be open to all - and it is upsetting to them. Perhaps more upsetting to the adults (maybe not the kids) was when these adults who shut them out of the sports then asked them to guest play because the team needed their skills for a big tournament.

Just remind yourself that this is only for 20 minutes a week. You could easily do that at home. While it is upsetting to see your friend go and you don't, maybe these parents have some pull that you don't. I recall a really pushy attorney mom (not a slam against lawyers, some are wonderful) and the family moved here from out of state. The process to get into the gifted program here takes about six months, but her triplets were in the program a few weeks after school started. The prior state did not use the same screening as this one, so there is no way they went through the process. And while the kids were bright, they probably were not gifted (or not all three). A few years down the road, however, my kid (that the school refused to let into the gifted program initially) was in the accelerated classes, and they were not. It will sort itself out - 1st grade is very early in the game.

I would probably talk to the principal, but I am one of "those" parents now- HAHA. Didn't set out be to one, but that is what is has taken to get services for my kids.

Don't you just LOVE when they start in with "there are smarter kids." My response would be that is wonderful - what a wonderful group of peers, and I am glad they are getting the services, but what about my DS, who is also very smart (and qualifies based upon their criteria.) They need to explain to you why he not in the group if he qualifies for it.

Send an email to the teacher and gifted teacher asking the criteria and/or recapping your conversations and cc the principal on it. Does your child have an IEP? If so, ask for a team meeting.

Good luck!

BTDT, a possible reply might be "Yes, thank you... HE does NOT feel good where he is at"... follow-up with
1) a question about what she specifically observes that causes her to believe he is working at his optimal challenge level,
2) a link to an article or two about the downward spiral of underachievement which kids may enter, when not working with sufficient academic challenge

I believe a good advocacy word here would be insular; it is not emotionally charged and it may be more precise, because ironically it can take a lot of work to be insular.

Have you asked for this? Possibly if he is not in the class due to any constraint on the number of pupils, he could still have the assignment? This request could be point #3 above, in your response to the teacher. It shows that the motivator is the higher level work, not the perceived status of the class.

The teacher might not be "wrong" so much as there may not be continuous enrollment; the 99% to qualify may have been at a specific point in time (beginning of year score). While this may seem arbitrary, this why parents may wish to inquire about these things. Low-key and logical questions may guide the school's GT decision maker's thoughts along a new path and lead them to conclude for themselves that your son belongs in the program, that it is a good "fit".

That may be, and some guiding questions to the teacher may get her thinking in a new way about what may be the best "fit" or your son.

This may vary from school to school, at some point it would be good to ask and learn how it works at your school: who is on the GT decision-making team?

Sometimes this may be what it seems on the surface. Other times, we find that some had developed their advocacy skills and were able to create change while forging relationships.

Advocacy can be difficult. Like any challenge it can bring out the best in some people as they study the various strategies and learn to apply them with apparent ease. Read up on advocacy, and throughout the next decade you may be glad you did.

By giving your son this interpretation you may indeed crush his spirit. If that is not your desired result you may wish to give him hope for qualifying at the next interval. One possible approach is to gather more information (timing/constraints,etc) to manage his expectations with facts as suggested previously. One possibility may be to let this go gracefully (for example: it appears the class is closed, only children with 99% at the beginning of the year are in the class, you have made tremendous progress and will continue to do so at home...) You might add that you understand his disappointment and have done everything you could to explore the possibility, it just didn't work out, this time. These interpretations do not pass along bad thoughts about the teacher.

It is wonderful that you could leverage your experience and reassure another parent. Keep in touch with them, they may be wonderful allies.

Lots o' resources... this is just a start...
1) http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10291.aspx
2) http://print.ditd.org/young_scholars/Guidebooks/Davidson_Guidebook_Advocating.pdf
3) http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/advocacy.htm
4) http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tea_terrorist.htm
Basically: be calm, research policies, gather facts, listen attentively (rephrasing with questions for clarity), and when faced with a piece of information which may be a discrepancy, or which you were unprepared for, or an opinion (such as his current placement is good), ask a question to learn another layer of information (if indeed there is another level available). This is sometimes called "peeling the onion". One begins to understand and appreciate the interrelatedness of various things and the constraints which others may face... and often find ways to work around them or work through them.

Sounds like a good advocacy plan.

There is no sense of failure in letting something go gracefully, taking time to re-group, reading up on advocacy strategies, and planning for next time: If I knew then what I know now...!

Hook - I haven't read back through everything, but are you just dealing with the local school? Or have you contacted the ISD admins yet? If not, I would go up the ladder. Everything SHOULD be laid out and written up and available either online, or in person at the Admin building. There should not be any 'secret' or undisclosed gifted programs. Gifted programs in Texas are state funded, but managed by each individual ISD.

I remember that my child's K PS teacher spent 8:00 AM - 8:40 AM (class starts at 8:40 AM) for several weeks to read with one child who was "at risk" because of his inablity to speak english. When we asked her why this child got extra instruction with her, she said that she is allowed to help students "outside the school program" in both ends of the spectrum and she chose to help struggling kids with her time before classes start so that she does not have to do pullouts at class time. There was no "program" for what she was doing and there were no rules and requirements - the teacher did this on her own and applied her own judgement on who was to receive her time and enrichment.
I believe that this could be the case with this secret program in your son's school - it could be that she thought that these loud kids would become manageable if they were given more enrichment and went out on her own to challenge them in math. So, this program may be done at teacher discretion, not open to all kids and not based on any criteria - it is not a fair situation, but there are programs in most public schools that the teacher has full jurisdiction on.
I am sorry that your child feels left out. If I were that teacher, I would be happy to take such an eager student into my special math enrichment class.

Actually that persepective makes a lot of sense to me. I would get that entirely too. Although when I asked if she would just forward me the info to do at home or if it were computer based what she was using so I could see if there were a homeschool version, I was shut out. I have no clue what sequence or level to start with. Just a quick email with an idea with directions would help my child out. If her heart truly were in that right place, I would think that option would've been accepted with wide open arms. Just makes no sense I guess.

I think I will be pulling both my kids out to home school....just seems like a better option now.

Our high stakes test are graded 1-5....3 is proficient, 4 and five are the best scores. When I was advocating for math acelleration for my ds earlier this year I was getting really frustrated. In my back pocket I kept a little zinger that I never used but I always knew I could if I had to.

My zinger if we hadn't come to an agreement about his education was that I would take my gifted child and his high stakes testing at least 4s if not 5s possibly even perfect scores and go back to his home school (he is in a school of choice program for the Spanish dual language). Knowing how important his scores are I knew I had the leverage.

Luckily I didn't have to pull that out and use it.

Hook - as I'm sure you know, there's a HUGE homeschooling community in TX. No doubt you'll find plenty of support.

I've seen both sides of this multiple times. It's really a no win scenario. If every advanced program is widely publicized, then over zealous parents push to put their children into such classes when their children often aren't a good fit rather than letting the school assess the need to be in the class (more on need later)This results in the staff spending more time dealing with fallout of students not being included than it does teaching those who need the class / service and discourages staff from even attempting the class / service.

I've also seen schools mention little or nothing about specialized programs and children miss opportunity to qualify for them or be prepared for them because they missed a specific day of school or some other reason. The common thought pattern being that the school is capable of assessing a child's needs and informing parents simply stirs the pot unnecessarily. If the child is assessed to qualify, then information goes out to parents of children in the program. It comes down to a "Need to know" basis.

Of course there are problems in both the above scenarios. Perhaps the bigger problem though is a recurring mindset I keep seeing in this and many other threads on this forum, that being the mindset of a certain percentage being the qualifying factor, instead of a percentage, the thought pattern should be getting students the classes and services they need regardless of what percentage of them need it. The percentage will vary from year to year and school to school.

Our schools are rather quiet about the pull-outs they do before G&T and AP in 3rd/4th grade. In fact, the only way I found out DD was IN the earlier pull-out was from what the other parents told me (certain teachers taught it, and certain kids were in it - usually this information came from parents who had older children who had been in the program). Most teachers at the school did not even tell parents where their kids were at in the differentiated curriculum - I've come to believe that they are afraid of the parents' reactions. It is always stressed that any grouping is "flexible" and "subject to change, based on the students' needs." Still, if one researches the school website, grouping for enrichment IS actually briefly discussed on the website.

While I can understand that the schools do not wish to be constantly justifying their decisions, I think what schools have to understand is that a lack of transparency can build mistrust. That being said, I fully support and encourage the school's use of differentiation in its teaching.

ITA with Old Dad.

Re the OP, I wonder if, in this instance, the thing to do might not be to give up the fight for this school year (since it's half over anyway). Starting your advocacy next year might be easier and more effective when you have a different teacher to work through. Fighting it now is most likely (just my guess) going to peg you as a parent who is going to fight to make sure your ds isn't left out of a program - note - this is *not* a "bad" trait at all, but it can be perceived negatively, especially in early elementary when there are a lot of parents who think their child needs to be included in all the available gifted programs. When our kids were in early elementary, there were so many other parents who also had "intellectually gifted" and "intellectually deserving of more" kids - according to the parents. Many of those parents were quite pushy, and it led to a lot of resistance on the part of the school staff when *any* parent tried to advocate for that "more" for their student, no matter how truly intellectually gifted their student was. What ended up happening was that sometimes the really pushy parents got their kids into the pull-outs or programs etc simply because they wouldn't take no for an answer and the school staff gave up. Other kids were overlooked. After the first few years of elementary, the kids who were in the programs because of pushy parents either thrived because they needed to be there, or moved out of the programs because they really didn't belong there. The kids who'd been overlooked - at least some of them - I can't speak for all - but at least some of them stood out more as being different as they moved on in school and many who teachers had overlooked were "discovered" once state testing and other types of testing such as gifted screening happened in 2nd/3rd grade.

Our eg ds was not one of the kids who stood out as obviously gifted or needing accelerated work in early elementary - it was frustrating to not have him given access to the accelerated work in his first years of school, but fwiw, just to offer a little bit of upside - not having that early recognition and inclusion didn't stop him from being the eg kid that he is, and ultimately he got into the gifted programs and advocating was much easier once we were past those first few years of almost every parent thinking their child was gifted.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I agree with Old Dad and percentages. At our school, for reading pull-out, 2 kids per class. When I tried to inquire what criteria, (in the policy it say MAP 95% or higher. Ds is 99%, but not getting pulled out.)I was told it was top 2 score in the class in a specified thread of Map. No further info. I was also assured that ds is getting what he needs in class- not.

All I was told about Math pullout, is there's more kids. Also, I was told next year, there will be 6 kids per class. Interesting.

I think schools make whatever rules suit them. Unfortunately, it's my ds who loses out.

Melessa, one of our school pull-outs is like that too, exactly 2 kids per class, every class. I figured it out the year my DD was lucky enough to be grouped in her regular classroom with several very strong kids. My DD was one of the two pulled out, but the overall pullout had fewer near-peers than her classroom that year. It doesn't make any sense, except that it must be organized for convenience (I assume of the teachers?). When my son got to that point, I realized that I would much rather he have the peers in his regular class than in the handful of pullout classes in that particular area. (And that's what happened- he has a few good peers in class but was not chosen for the pullout despite being quite strong in that area).

I would be shocked if this wasn't the norm (unfortunately)...

Our current school does even tell you if your child is in the secret program!

I found out from another parent about the 'secret' math pull out when she asked how my son liked it. I was taken aback, but knew she didn't mean any harm (and I could see why she would have assumed he was in it based on some other achievements). I said, ummm, I don't think he has been invited into the program. She said no he is in it and working closely with her son. After school that day, my son confirmed he was going to a new special math class but forgot to mention it. He said it was better than regular class but not really anything new.

This year, year 2, working directly with his teacher I pushed for something extra. She arranged for the enrichment teacher (a close friend of hers) to take a few of the children out for some more challenging work. This only happened in my class (not the other year 2 classroom), I didn't want to make a big deal of it in fear of losing it! I know another parent in our class found out about it and advocated for her son to get involved, she was told no because overall he was not at the same level as the children. I know they were disappointed but the teacher assured them his needs were bet met in the classroom.