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Can someone tell me what the process is for getting a child a 504 plan? I think DD will need one for her ADHD. All that I really want are testing accommodations (for instance no timed tests that "count" towards grades or class placements), and a reduced workload if she is having problems with speed. Does the school need to do a comprehensive evaluation, so if I put in a request in writing, do I request that, or just that she is evaluated in terms of her disability and what accommodations will need to be made? I really would prefer the school NOT do a comprehensive evaluation but is that what we have to do in order to get a 504? She already has a medical diagnosis of ADHD.
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I think if you already have a medical diagnosis of ADHD there is no need for an eval by the school and you can go right to getting the 504. I know with my DS he had a hypotonia diagnosis by private neurologist, private neuromuscular and resulting delays in private OT reports and we got a 504 on that without the school doing any type of eval. They did do their own evals (OT and PT for getting school OT and/or PT services) but we had a 504 based on the DX and regardless of what the school OT or PT found.
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How is it decided what accommodations need to be made? And how do you request a 504? Does it have to be put in writing or is there a form? I'm just wondering if I say "no more timed tests or extended time on tests because of the ADHD" do they just say "ok"? Knowing the school, I can't see that happening.
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Can someone tell me what the process is for getting a child a 504 plan? Two part process: 1. Evaluation and eligibility. This is where a team (which possesses the expertise to know what various kinds of data mean) evaluates information about the child, any diagnoses and expert opinion, data, etc. regarding the nature, extent, and severity of the limitations imposed by the putative disability in order to decide whether or not the child is SIGNIFICANTLY IMPAIRED relative to unaffected peers of similar age. If so, then teh child is deemed a qualified individual with a disability, and phase 2 happens (often in the same meeting, if time allows). 2. Writing the individual plan. This can include ANY accommodations that permit the disabled child to access the educational activities/environment to the same degree as their unaffected peers, bearing in mind that these accommodations should meet both FAPE (free and appropriate education) and also be least-restrictive (that is, as inclusive with non-affected peers as possible, even where that means modifications in the classroom). The writing of the plan involves three distinct KINDS of expertise: 1. experts re: the nature of the disability (usually physicians or outside experts) 2. experts about the particular CHILD in question (who may have idiosyncrasies or other quirks/needs that must be considered in conjunction with the disability, or which impact how the disability is likely to manifest under particular conditions) In other words-- PARENTS. 3. experts on the purpose, methodology, and policies, practices, and procedures of the SCHOOL in particular... placement options experts. This is mostly going to be classroom teachers and school administrators. A plan is usually grossly imperfect or incomplete and doesn't work well if it doesn't include input from ALL of those different groups.  Oh-- and a final note, here-- schools have a duty to identify and serve children under both ADA and IDEA, but few do a good job of actively SEEKING to identify kids. Mostly, parents have to ASK for evaluation under section 504. But once you do, you should receive a copy of the procedural safeguards for your district. If you don't, politely ask. There is usually a timeline associated with a request for evaluation, but it's highly variable, so district policy/procedure is another thing to ask for. Hope that helps!
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Thanks for all the input. I had a discussion with the school psych last year and she went in and observed DD for about a half hour and concluded she was fine. But DD's medication was probably working when she observed, or the type of task that DD was doing at the time wasn't something that she struggles with. I explained to the school psych that DD does much better on meds than without meds (without meds there would be NO question that she has a disability and wouldn't be able to function in school). I know that according to new guidelines they need to assess her in terms of how she is without any modifications made to the disability, like meds. But how do they assess her if she is going into school medicated? Even though she is better on meds, I would still want some accommodations (like giving her more time) because she is still not quite right. But whether they would consider her significantly impaired while the medication is working, maybe, maybe not. Plus, who knows how long she will be on meds and whether they are working for her at all times of the school day. They are probably not working when she first shows up for school, for instance.
Sometimes I think I should just let it go, but then DD brings home spelling tests with words left blank, saying she can't keep up with the teacher. The teacher told her that she needs to work faster, and that should be her "behavior goal" (even though she said DD appears focused). I feel that unless we get something in writing, we are going to have ongoing issues with every single teacher, esp. as the work gets more involved or complex.
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The process and timeline are really dependent on the school district. HK outlined the ins and outs of what's required, but fwiw, for a 504 plan - that can all easily take place in one meeting in our school district if you have a diagnosis report for a qualifying disability from a professional provider (private) or if you have been through an IEP eligibility process and found not eligible for instruction under an IEP but are eligible for disability accommodations.
If you don't have a diagnosis or outside testing, in our district you would have to request the testing in writing and then wait for a team meeting, the team decides if there is reason to suspect a disability and move forward with testing - if the team decides to test they have a specific number of school days within which to complete the testing (there is a federal law limitation and some districts have shorter time frames as policy).
Have you tried looking on your school district's website or just asking at the school? Most schools (here) have a designated 504 coordinator who can answer these types of questions.
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We're going through a comprehensive eval for DS right now in terms of trying to get OT added to his IEP (and classroom accommodations--I assume those go on the IEP and we don't need a separate 504?). It has been a ridiculous struggle and I had to get the Director of Special Ed for the district involved. He has been reasonable and helpful and came to the last IEP meeting (and has been telling the school what they need to do) so maybe I should call him about DD as well. Maybe I should wait til the dust settles with DS.
I have to figure out who the 504 coordinator is. The school psych last year was basically clueless and came right out and told me that a 504 would not be needed based on a 30 min. observation.
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This is how my son got a 504 plan. I said, "My son needs a 504 plan for ADHD." They told me to have the doctor fax the diagnosis and recommended accommodations. He did. The counselor wrote up the plan. I signed it.
My point is that it was ridiculously easy.
Now, an IEP would have been different because then they would have actually had to *do* something.
Last edited by Kai; 10/18/13 07:17 PM.
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A related question about 504 plans... I can not understand what is legally an accommodation and what is legally a curriculum modification that would require a IEP.
DSs school says any "modification" requires an IEP. To the teacher (or what she has said verbally) this means that DS should complete all individual assignments. For example that if they all write the spelling words out in a list every day that DS must do that also.
For dysgraphia or ADHD maybe extra time on assigments and tests might be an accommodation, correct? For dysgraphia paper with larger line spacing would be an accommodation.
But how about with the daily spelling words (normally written) would doing them verbally instead of writing them be a modification of the curriculum or would it be a simple accommodation under a 504. Does anyone know where might I find legal precedent for that? Or that specifically mentioned in a government issued guidance document?
And then has anyone any experience with anything akin to frustration or invisible pain as something that is accommodated by 504? For example limiting the total amount of reading practice in the day because of headache due to eyestrain in a child with visual difficulty? Or limiting the total amount of writing per day due to muscle tiredness? I'm looking just at 504s right now.
Hopefully I am not stealing the thread with this.
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Polly, curricular modifications can belong with either one. It just depends on whether the intent is to remove a barrier to participation with peers (504) or for the student to recieve individual educational benefit (IEP) from the change. But DD's medication was probably working when she observed Then that's a no-no. New ADAA says "no consideration of mitigating measures" can be used in determining eligibility. I'd fire back that they weren't doing an adequate job considering a "variety of sources" of "expert opinion" re: the disabling condition in your child.\
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Polly--you're not stealing the thread. The more info that comes out, the better for anyone going through this (incl. me). Unfortunately I have no idea how to answer your question. I thought I could just say I want DD's workload cut if she is having problems with speed and that could go on the 504. If it cannot, then what is the teacher going to do? Keep her in from recess so that she has enough time to finish her work or tests? I don't think what the school is telling you sounds correct, but I'm not an expert. I can't believe how everything has to turn into a huge battle at some schools. When DD's teacher told me that DD is slow, I told her that it is probably due to her ADHD and she may need accommodations like cutting the amount of work...so for instance if she is slow with reading worksheets, she could do half the questions instead of all of them. The teacher could have said "Ok, that' wouldn't be a problem." Instead, she just grunted and stared at me so I feel it's necessary to go through the official process.
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But DD's medication was probably working when she observed Then that's a no-no. New ADAA says "no consideration of mitigating measures" can be used in determining eligibility. I'd fire back that they weren't doing an adequate job considering a "variety of sources" of "expert opinion" re: the disabling condition in your child.\ That's what I thought and I told the school psych last spring, she ignored my email for several weeks and then finally wrote back and she said "I wasn't aware of that." Huh? She's like DS's IEP manager (his speech therapist) and the school OT not being aware that there are 13 different disability categories! These things are very basic! I can't figure out if they are being deliberately obtuse or truly are just that clueless. So can you clarify what you mean by "variety of sources" of "expert opinion"? Do we go back to her diagnosis in 1st grade and the paperwork stating how she was back then from the pediatrician? How do I "prove" that she is still disabled enough to need accommodations when she is on meds every day?
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I'd forward her some helpful reading. You know, for professional development or continuing education.
LOL. Because that language is CRYSTAL clear at DoEd OCR.
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http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/dcl-504faq-201109.htmlDirect from the horse's mouth, as it were. One helpful technique when you're dealing with willful stupidity in the 504/IEP process is to encourage the person you're speaking with to call OCR themselves for technical assistance. Some of the most thoroughly, CLEARLY incompetent people I've encountered in public education have been in special ed, I'm sorry to note. Let me see what I can find on the "variety of sources" clause in eligibility. I know that technically, this is a loophole for a determined district/school-- but that most of them aren't savvy enough or smart enough to utilize it well. (Frankly, excluding parents from meetings is just not wise, nor is playing expert v. expert with parents' private specialists unless they are willing to spend BIG $$$ on things, and most of them simply can't.) Okay-- this is a terrific overview of the entire process: http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.htmlIt also does a nice job of pointing out the interrelated nature of IEP and 504 in the school setting. I'm going to skim that one again and see if it contains clarification on "variety of sources" of information. I'm betting that it does.
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Yes, it does-- 18. What is an appropriate evaluation under Section 504?
Recipient school districts must establish standards and procedures for initial evaluations and periodic re-evaluations of students who need or are believed to need special education and/or related services because of disability. The Section 504 regulatory provision at 34 C.F.R. 104.35(b) requires school districts to individually evaluate a student before classifying the student as having a disability or providing the student with special education. Tests used for this purpose must be selected and administered so as best to ensure that the test results accurately reflect the student's aptitude or achievement or other factor being measured rather than reflect the student's disability, except where those are the factors being measured. Section 504 also requires that tests and other evaluation materials include those tailored to evaluate the specific areas of educational need and not merely those designed to provide a single intelligence quotient. The tests and other evaluation materials must be validated for the specific purpose for which they are used and appropriately administered by trained personnel.
19. How much is enough information to document that a student has a disability?
At the elementary and secondary education level, the amount of information required is determined by the multi-disciplinary committee gathered to evaluate the student. The committee should include persons knowledgeable about the student, the meaning of the evaluation data, and the placement options. The committee members must determine if they have enough information to make a knowledgeable decision as to whether or not the student has a disability. The Section 504 regulatory provision at 34 C.F.R. 104.35(c) requires that school districts draw from a variety of sources in the evaluation process so that the possibility of error is minimized. The information obtained from all such sources must be documented and all significant factors related to the student's learning process must be considered. These sources and factors may include aptitude and achievement tests, teacher recommendations, physical condition, social and cultural background, and adaptive behavior. In evaluating a student suspected of having a disability, it is unacceptable to rely on presumptions and stereotypes regarding persons with disabilities or classes of such persons. Compliance with the IDEA regarding the group of persons present when an evaluation or placement decision is made is satisfactory under Section 504.
20. What process should a school district use to identify students eligible for services under Section 504? Is it the same process as that employed in identifying students eligible for services under the IDEA?
School districts may use the same process to evaluate the needs of students under Section 504 as they use to evaluate the needs of students under the IDEA. If school districts choose to adopt a separate process for evaluating the needs of students under Section 504, they must follow the requirements for evaluation specified in the Section 504 regulatory provision at 34 C.F.R. 104.35.
21. May school districts consider "mitigating measures" used by a student in determining whether the student has a disability under Section 504?
No. As of January 1, 2009, school districts, in determining whether a student has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits that student in a major life activity, must not consider the ameliorating effects of any mitigating measures that student is using. This is a change from prior law. Before January 1, 2009, school districts had to consider a student’s use of mitigating measures in determining whether that student had a physical or mental impairment that substantially limited that student in a major life activity. In the Amendments Act (see FAQ 1), however, Congress specified that the ameliorative effects of mitigating measures must not be considered in determining if a person is an individual with a disability.
Congress did not define the term “mitigating measures” but rather provided a non-exhaustive list of “mitigating measures.” The mitigating measures are as follows: medication; medical supplies, equipment or appliances; low-vision devices (which do not include ordinary eyeglasses or contact lenses); prosthetics (including limbs and devices); hearing aids and cochlear implants or other implantable hearing devices; mobility devices; oxygen therapy equipment and supplies; use of assistive technology; reasonable accommodations or auxiliary aids or services; and learned behavioral or adaptive neurological modifications.
Congress created one exception to the mitigating measures analysis. The ameliorative effects of the mitigating measures of ordinary eyeglasses or contact lenses shall be considered in determining if an impairment substantially limits a major life activity. “Ordinary eyeglasses or contact lenses” are lenses that are intended to fully correct visual acuity or eliminate refractive error, whereas “low-vision devices” (listed above) are devices that magnify, enhance, or otherwise augment a visual image.
22. Does OCR endorse a single formula or scale that measures substantial limitation?
No. The determination of substantial limitation must be made on a case-by-case basis with respect to each individual student. The Section 504 regulatory provision at 34 C.F.R. 104.35 (c) requires that a group of knowledgeable persons draw upon information from a variety of sources in making this determination.
23. Are there any impairments which automatically mean that a student has a disability under Section 504?
No. An impairment in and of itself is not a disability. The impairment must substantially limit one or more major life activities in order to be considered a disability under Section 504.
24. Can a medical diagnosis suffice as an evaluation for the purpose of providing FAPE?
No. A physician's medical diagnosis may be considered among other sources in evaluating a student with an impairment or believed to have an impairment which substantially limits a major life activity. Other sources to be considered, along with the medical diagnosis, include aptitude and achievement tests, teacher recommendations, physical condition, social and cultural background, and adaptive behavior. As noted in FAQ 22, the Section 504 regulations require school districts to draw upon a variety of sources in interpreting evaluation data and making placement decisions.
25. Does a medical diagnosis of an illness automatically mean a student can receive services under Section 504?
No. A medical diagnosis of an illness does not automatically mean a student can receive services under Section 504. The illness must cause a substantial limitation on the student's ability to learn or another major life activity. For example, a student who has a physical or mental impairment would not be considered a student in need of services under Section 504 if the impairment does not in any way limit the student's ability to learn or other major life activity, or only results in some minor limitation in that regard.
26. How should a recipient school district handle an outside independent evaluation? Do all data brought to a multi-disciplinary committee need to be considered and given equal weight?
The results of an outside independent evaluation may be one of many sources to consider. Multi-disciplinary committees must draw from a variety of sources in the evaluation process so that the possibility of error is minimized. All significant factors related to the subject student's learning process must be considered. These sources and factors include aptitude and achievement tests, teacher recommendations, physical condition, social and cultural background, and adaptive behavior, among others. Information from all sources must be documented and considered by knowledgeable committee members. The weight of the information is determined by the committee given the student's individual circumstances. In short, blackcat, your DD was NEVER given an "appropriate" evaluation by that standard.
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blackcat, whether or not you're encountering a school psych who is clueless or a school psych that is purposely sabotaging your attempt to get a 504, I'd recommend a small amount of research and changing approach tactics at this point, fwiw. I'd also try to keep in mind - there are most likely other kids at your dd's school who have ADHD and 504 plans in place. First thing to do, try to find a list of typical accommodations on either your school district or state's department of ed SPED website - the reason you want to find this list is to find out what it typical simply because chances are good if you request an accommodation off this list the school will be much less likely to argue against it. This can be especially helpful with things like how to specifically word a request - for instance: (for instance no timed tests that "count" towards grades or class placements) The typical accommodation in our district is "extended time on classroom and standardized tests." Some school districts might quantify "time and a half" etc. There would be no note of "counting" toward class placements and grades, it would be an accommodation for all testing. Where there is no specific example of an accommodation, think through how you'd word your own suggestion: I thought I could just say I want DD's workload cut if she is having problems with speed and that could go on the 504. If it cannot, then what is the teacher going to do? I am not sure what is the best way to phrase the reduced workload option - one way to word this might be to say "allow dd to choose to do every other problem when she understands the concept" or "allow dd extended time of one day to turn in assignments" etc. You can also build in (I think) a note that dd specifically should not be held in from recess to complete classwork. The next thing I'd do is to call your district admin office and ask what the policy is for requesting a 504 plan for your dd. If you can find a designated 504 supervisor at the district level, call them. If you can't, call the head of SPED. Chances are the policy is to make a request at your school - so put a request in writing in an email, make it brief but state that your dd has an ADHD diagnosis, and then send that policy to whoever you were told to contact, and cc it to the person you talked to at the district office as well as your school principal. Leave the school psych out of this request unless you're told she's the person you are supposed to send it to. The school psych will most likely be included in a 504 meeting but that doesn't necessarily mean she's the gatekeeper for your school or the program administrator for your school - and that's who you need to be going through to get the process started. And as others have mentioned, getting a 504 for typical ADHD accommodations really shouldn't be difficult. We've had the same experience you're having though with school psychs though - so I'm not entirely surprised. Instead, she just grunted and stared at me so I feel it's necessary to go through the official process. Going through the official process is a good idea whether or not this teacher suddenly turned into a graciously accommodating angel Chances are if your dd is needing extended time occasionally now she will continue to need it and at some point you'll want it for standardized testing, and it's easier to get that accommodation in place if you have a record of having accommodated previously in the classroom. Best wishes, polarbear ps - HK's advice is *excellent*
Last edited by polarbear; 10/19/13 09:34 AM.
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But how about with the daily spelling words (normally written) would doing them verbally instead of writing them be a modification of the curriculum or would it be a simple accommodation under a 504. Polly, I don't have any legal precendent for you, but my understanding of the term "modification" is it includes modifying the actual curriculum, and this isn't what you are doing here. Your ds is still going to be studying the same list of spelling words, you are requesting that he be given an accommodation to allow him to show his knowledge. Typically what we've had in accommodations for our dysgraphic ds were terms such as "will be allowed to use a word processor for any writing longer than 1-2 sentences or short phrases". We haven't addressed spelling lists specifically, but for this I'd request something like "oral response for spelling tests" or "allow oral retell for spelling practice in the classroom" etc. And then has anyone any experience with anything akin to frustration or invisible pain as something that is accommodated by 504? For example limiting the total amount of reading practice in the day because of headache due to eyestrain in a child with visual difficulty? Or limiting the total amount of writing per day due to muscle tiredness? I'm looking just at 504s right now. Our ds has wrist pain associated with writing if he has to use handwriting for more than a few minutes. The issue of pain isn't directly addressed in his accommodations list, but instead is addressed indirectly - he's not required to use handwriting. So for handwriting, I'd suggest limiting the type of assignment he uses handwriting for rather than total amount of time per day - that's something that's easier to implement rather than having someone actually track number of minutes spent handwriting. For headache due to eyestrain, I'd request an accommodation that rather than limiting time specifically states "will be allowed to take a break when eye strain" etc. Also think through the specifics of what helps your dd when she has eye strain and request those - the school may or may not be specific re exactly what type of thing to do at those times, but it helps to have them in the conversation and have the teacher say "ok" to them. My dd for instance, keeps a water bottle at her desk. When her eyes start bothering her, it helps her to drink water through a straw. It also helps her to look up and away and then back near again, things like that. DD doesn't have a 504 plan, these are things she's always had teachers be more than willing to let her do. polarbear
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Thank you also, polarbear.That was very helpful. I have a feeling the people in the school district are just very poorly trained, but there also is an element of trying to get out of things. The school psych is also the one who wants to give her the Weschler non-verbal ability test rather than the WISC,even though the WISC would be a better test. So far I have not argued much with her about anything, I just sent her the info about how DD needs to be evaluated in terms of ADHD without the medication (or how she was before she was treated). The school psych's response was that her teacher thought she was "just fine", there are no timed tests (other than the CogAT), there are no real grades in second, third grade, etc. So there is no problem. DD's teacher last year was anti-med and didn't want to talk about the ADHD at all. But I got an email from her the last week of school saying that she's slow, sloppy, can't complete the simplest of tasks, DD was crying in class about not getting things done, etc. I forwarded it to the school psych saying "maybe we need to reconsider the 504" and the school psych never replied. I haven't written to her or talked to her about it since then. She was summoned (not by me) to DS's last IEP meeting and is going to need to be part of his comprehensive eval (ugh). Now we have the third grade teacher telling DD that she needs to speed up and she's too slow, despite DD appearing focused and putting effort into her work and the teacher knowing about the ADHD. It seems like that should be enough to write a 504.
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... I have a feeling the people in the school district are just very poorly trained, but there also is an element of trying to get out of things... Agreed. This may be widespread... educators not knowing what to look for (being untrained in giftedness, or not having seen the broad range of gifted abilities) means they may not recognize giftedness, which may actually translate to them having to do less work in unknown or unfamiliar territory. In addition to a time-consuming learning curve, it is probably the fear of the unknown, knowing they may make some missteps along the way, and concern over the consequences, which make plunging in somewhat unrewarding. Many people like to be safe; it's just so... safe! Encouraging a growth mindset, and sharing that many of us as parents knew nothing about giftedness until we had kids who did not fit the mold, may go a long way toward helping others hear what we say and subsequently cultivating in them an interest to learn more, and the confidence to "try". So much of supporting a gifted child's education is experimenting and being open to refining and changing direction. There is not one clear path to success. If teaching degrees required learning about giftedness, what would you want them to know? What books, articles, or resources would you recommend? What topics would you like your state affiliate of NAGC to offer at their conference?
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blackcat (Happy Halloween, btw ;)) this made me groan out loud... it hit close to home: DD's teacher last year was anti-med and didn't want to talk about the ADHD at all. But I got an email from her the last week of school saying that she's slow, sloppy, can't complete the simplest of tasks, DD was crying in class about not getting things done, etc. I forwarded it to the school psych saying "maybe we need to reconsider the 504" and the school psych never replied. Polly, my friend's 2e DS gets a "scribe" with his IEP due to his slow processing speed. Not sure if you could access a scribe for dysgraphia using a 504, but thought I'd mention this. We just submitted an old OT evaluation last week, along with a letter from our pediatrician requesting the school do further evaluation, and we had a multi-disciplinary meeting set up on Monday. Today we heard DD6.5 qualifies for a 504 even before her ADHD evaluation is complete with the MD.
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FWIW, I have never been able to get the 504 to include a written statement that DD's workload will be reduced. I've been told multiple times that would be a curriculum modification that requires an IEP. That said, once DD got her 504 which just says that she gets extra time, her teachers often have been willing to modify DD's workload informally.
For example, this year DD's teacher has set time limits on different homework tasks for her. If she doesn't get something done, she may need to work over the weekend if it is something important or it might just be forgiven. The teacher asks me to keep her informed when DD is getting overwhelmed and has given me authority to cut DD off. BTW, did I mention that I think that this year's teacher is a goddess?
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I am still waiting for DD to get a really good teacher. We are on #4 at this school and a couple have been better than others, but I haven't been overly impressed with any of them. Yesterday I let her play outside after school. By the time she came in, her medication had worn off and it was impossible to get her to do anything. Dh woke her up a half hour early in the morning so she could get her math done, but since the patch takes about 3 hours to kick in, she is no more focused in the morning than the evening. After much yelling, I finally told DD the answers and she wrote them down. The reason why I did this--her teacher will keep her in from recess as a punishment if she doesn't get stuff done. She turned in her busywork worksheets for "enriched spelling" a couple days late and the teacher threatened to bump her down to a lower spelling group if she didn't get those worksheets turned in the next morning (today). What the heck is that all about. The spelling group she is in should be based on whether she can pass the tests, not how quickly she copies words down on practice sheets. Plus, DD scored 100 percent on the pre-test yesterday so what did it even matter if she got those sheets done?! She is in third grade, it's not like this is high school.
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Thank you for writing this thread, blackcat. I have the same questions now that my son has been diagnosed with ADHD.
Do you mind me asking what grade your DD is in? My son is in 1st grade and thus far school has not been a problem at all. I did just check his backpack and saw he didn't bring home his reading homework. It's an easy ziplock bag full of books to bring home--easy. He has now probably forgotten it about 8 times and it's October. SIGH. So while he might not be showing signs in class his impairments are starting to in a sense affect school.
Do I go for the 504 in 1st grade? What grade did you notice the typical characteristics of ADHD come out in your DD at school?
I'm getting a bit sad reading what all you've been through with last year's teacher, etc. We are are children's best and only advocates! I just don't understand why anyone would ever hinder helping a child perform to their utmost potential.
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Sorry you are dealing with this too. She is in third but was grade accelerated in kindergarten so according to her age she should be in second right now.
When she was in kindergarten it became very clear that she wasn't going to learn anything there because she could already read well. The teacher gave her the end of the year math test and she already knew everything. The teacher didn't seem to have a clue about how to differentiate so we moved her up a grade in the end of November. I mentioned the focus issues several times but everyone kind of dismissed it (including the school psych--a different one than we have now--who evaluated her!). When she was moved to first I started going in for about an hour ever week to volunteer during reading/writing. DD was very spaced out compared to the other kids and it took her forever to write anything. Other kids would be filling up an entire page complete with nice drawing, and DD would have a sentence. This was shortly after she turned 6. She wasn't misbehaved, just very slow and out of it. So that's when we got the diagnosis and started her on meds (in the spring). She improved dramatically and caught up to the rest of the kids in terms of her ability to get stuff done, writing, etc.
I talked to the school psych last spring and she said that there is no need for a 504 since nothing is graded at that age, there aren't timed tests (other than the CogAT they use for gifted identification), etc. However, now that we are in third, the teacher seems to expect more and I'm feeling like DD is being punished for her disability.
My guess is you don't need a 504 in first grade unless you need classroom modifications in order for him to function (and the teacher is not willing to make them without a 504). For instance special seating, help organizing things, etc. I would talk to the teacher and see if you can come up with a plan before trying to pursue a 504.
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Thank you, Blackcat. All helpful info and I'm hoping you get the necessary plan in order for your DD in school. I'm actually meeting with his teacher this week since we just got the results recently. I appreciate any and all advice, so thank you!
I can relate with the math note. My son has never been accelerated but is also leaps and bounds ahead in math. He still has yet to get to a concept he doesn't already know but he tends to hide this from anyone but me. He told me last year that school was so boring b/c he already knew everything they taught him. At first I thought he was being cheeky but then I realized he really did. However, as I mentioned on another thread, he can't seem to take tests to show his potential in intellectual ability for the life of him. Oh well!
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One thing you should ask for is to get rid of timed tests. They are a nightmare for a kid with processing speed or working memory issues. DD does wonderful on computerized testing for reading/math achievement tests as long as she is given as much time as she needs. She tanked the CogAT (which they use for gifted screening)--she is so slow she left half of it blank. She took an untimed version of the CogAT when she was in K and grade accelerated and did much better (just goes to show what a stupid test it is, if a kids' score can drop 30 points in one year).
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Tnx blackcat. Good info. I currently fall into the category of how can a test truly measure a person's intelligence? I know many tests do tell a good, accurate measure to be fair, but there seems to be a significant amount of people who just don't show their true colors on tests. Timed tests for DS--definitely a no go.
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I don't know. What's weird is that people with ADHD supposedly have normal intelligence, yet things like working memory and processing speed are measured as part of IQ tests. If ADHD people tend to be impaired with those things, but they are part of intelligence, then by logic you have to say that ADHD people aren't as intelligent overall. So if my DD has processing speed issues does that or does that not mean her overall intelligence is impaired? If there are discrepanices why calculate a GAI in order to get a true idea of a person's ability? Why leave those scores in for some people but not others? Why not just leave them OFF for everyone?
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I don't know. What's weird is that people with ADHD supposedly have normal intelligence, yet things like working memory and processing speed are measured as part of IQ tests. If ADHD people tend to be impaired with those things, but they are part of intelligence, then by logic you have to say that ADHD people aren't as intelligent overall. So if my DD has processing speed issues does that or does that not mean her overall intelligence is impaired? If there are discrepanices why calculate a GAI in order to get a true idea of a person's ability? Why leave those scores in for some people but not others? Why not just leave them OFF for everyone? My son's GAI is about 25 points higher than his FSIQ. He has dyslexia and ADHD. His GAI seems to be most useful in determining the level of the work he should be doing, how far he is from the mean in his ability to understand things, that sort of thing. The FSIQ seems to more accurately predict his actual achievement in school. My other son's WISC IV profile is fairly similar to his brother's with one big exception--his WMI score is in the gifted range where his brother's is below 100. They both have trouble with processing speed. His excellent working memory makes schoolwork a breeze for him even though he struggles with speed issues.
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IIf there are discrepanices why calculate a GAI in order to get a true idea of a person's ability? Why leave those scores in for some people but not others? Why not just leave them OFF for everyone? Actually, I am thrilled they do the Processing Speed Index and, for obvious reasons, I am thrilled the index is most often not used against a child in terms of gifted id. The processing speed index was a strong tool that I used to advocate for accommodations and proving my son is gifted as well as learning disabled and BOTH need to be addressed. I love the WISC for that very reason.
Last edited by Irena; 10/30/13 02:49 PM.
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I don't know. What's weird is that people with ADHD supposedly have normal intelligence, yet things like working memory and processing speed are measured as part of IQ tests. If ADHD people tend to be impaired with those things, but they are part of intelligence, then by logic you have to say that ADHD people aren't as intelligent overall. So if my DD has processing speed issues does that or does that not mean her overall intelligence is impaired? If there are discrepanices why calculate a GAI in order to get a true idea of a person's ability? Why leave those scores in for some people but not others? Why not just leave them OFF for everyone? One of the primary uses of "IQ" tests is to measure deficiencies, not areas of excellence. I would venture a guess that they are used far, far more often (probably by an order of magnitude) to evaluate the mentally disabled, the neurologically impaired or people with brain injuries than they are to determine 'giftedness'. They are imprecise tools that weren't really created simply to evaluate intelligence to being with. One of the first uses of IQ testing was to determine the mentally impaired vs the mentally ill. They are great at helping people determine many things about individuals, and populations at large.. the least of these being a 'full score iq'.
~amy
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I don't know. What's weird is that people with ADHD supposedly have normal intelligence, yet things like working memory and processing speed are measured as part of IQ tests. If ADHD people tend to be impaired with those things, but they are part of intelligence, then by logic you have to say that ADHD people aren't as intelligent overall. So if my DD has processing speed issues does that or does that not mean her overall intelligence is impaired? If there are discrepanices why calculate a GAI in order to get a true idea of a person's ability? Why leave those scores in for some people but not others? Why not just leave them OFF for everyone? I see IQ tests as measuring a spectrum of separate abilities. The information contained in that type of testing has been extremely helpful in understanding my children's learning strengths and challenges. My 2e kiddos both have an area they score extremely low in relative to their other scores, but I don't see it as having their overall intelligence impaired... I see it more as a specific challenge. I don't particularly enjoy it when my ds' teachers like to say "we all have something" but really... we all do have *something* that is a challenge. Some challenges are larger than others... what the IQ test does is quantify the specifics of it. A bit like measuring eyesight in each eye. I don't go around thinking of my vision as impaired, but I do wear contacts to get it back to 20/20. And yep, that's a simplification and it didn't feel all that simple when my kids were in early elementary - learning challenges take work... but the thing is as my ds in particular has gone through middle school and he's getting older, he's grown into being very comfortable with who he is. Yes, he has a challenge but at the same time, he's come through those early years where we have to focus so much on that challenge to being at a place where he knows how to cope with the challenge, he continues to work hard at getting more proficient in the skills he's weak at, and now his strengths have the chance to take front and center stage and be recognized.. and it really does get more to the point of being similar to putting on your contacts in the morning. Also re why is processing speed even included in the WISC (or other ability tests) - one of my kids has an exceptionally high processing speed and working memory. It really does make a difference in her ability to learn! Not in the same way that an exceptionally out-of-the-box thinking ability makes a difference, but in her ability to take in knowledge quickly, sort through data quickly, express her thoughts clearly, get work done so she can move on to other work. polarbear
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good points everyone. I guess my concern is how to use the information. Take the magnet school for highly gifted, for example. GAI 133 (for DS) whereas full scale IQ was more like 126. The 133 score probably shows his ability to understand the material, but the 126 probably shows his ability to actually perform the work. In a few years, assuming his scores stay the same, he could get into the program based on 133 but does he really belong there? Or are the deficits going to cause a child to struggle so much that it's detrimental to them? Also, his strength is in non-verbal, not verbal and there is a discrepancy there as well.
I was just talking to another mom about this this morning. Her 4th grader is in the gifted magnet school and we were talking about DD and her ADHD and speed issues. I'm pretty sure DD is bright enough to do the work. But maybe not in a timely fashion. So is that the best place for her if the majority of the kids don't have discrepancies or weaknesses like that? If not, than what IS the best place for her? The normal classroom where she would do grade level work for the most part?
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Love reading all these points as well. I think I've been so hyperfocused on my DS having the IQ testing done to show his giftedness that I failed to look at all of its uses. It definitely showcased some extreme weaknesses, along with only one strength.
I think I have a lot to learn.
Last edited by Researchmamabear; 10/30/13 03:19 PM. Reason: apostrophe...quelle horror
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Yeah, one of the best IEP meeting moments I had happened at the last iep with my DS's WISC scores. We were adding gifted services and also just reviewing accommodations and discussing with his new teachers how and why DS really needs his accommodations and the principal (whom I have had one hell of a battle with last year) said "see how some of these subtests in the verbal section are so high and yet look at these tests in the processing index some of them are in the single digits" I am paraphrasing but in was in the context of 'look here is a really smart bright kid but look at how incredibly difficult it is for him to show us via traditional methods (like handwriting)' It felt like he really got it - got the full picture, i.e., he is gifted AND learning disabled - it is possible.
Last edited by Irena; 10/30/13 02:57 PM.
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good points everyone. I guess my concern is how to use the information. Take the magnet school for highly gifted, for example. GAI 133 (for DS) whereas full scale IQ was more like 126. The 133 score probably shows his ability to understand the material, but the 126 probably shows his ability to actually perform the work. In a few years, assuming his scores stay the same, he could get into the program based on 133 but does he really belong there? Or are the deficits going to cause a child to struggle so much that it's detrimental to them? Also, his strength is in non-verbal, not verbal and there is a discrepancy there as well.
I was just talking to another mom about this this morning. Her 4th grader is in the gifted magnet school and we were talking about DD and her ADHD and speed issues. I'm pretty sure DD is bright enough to do the work. But maybe not in a timely fashion. So is that the best place for her if the majority of the kids don't have discrepancies or weaknesses like that? If not, than what IS the best place for her? The normal classroom where she would do grade level work for the most part? blackcat, I think the answer to your questions is going to depend on the interaction of quite a few variables: your child's personality, the nature of your child's challenge, the actual program, and the attitude of the teachers and program staff. A key to your child's success, no matter what program - is going to be accommodations (and remediation where it is needed). Once you have a good set of accommodations in place, and your child knows how to use them, in theory I would expect they should be able to be placed in a highly gifted program. I can't speak for all kids but I can speak for my own 2e ds, and he's happiest (and has done his best work) when he's appropriately challenged *intellectually*. He does spend more time on homework than neurotypical peers - not because he doesn't understand the concepts but because it just takes longer to slog through all the output of what he does know and understand. He is a-ok with that, however... and he's become very adamant that he does not want to be stuck in classes that are slow-paced. I've also seen over the years that the times that he was able to break through and do his best work in the areas he's most challenged with were... when he had apprpriately intellectually challenging assignments. Just assuming he needed to start at square one and work through very remedial work really didn't work well for him. polarbear
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Ok, thanks. Since she was grade accelerated she has the benefit of being the youngest in her grade so that helps in terms of leveling things out. I just worry that the combination of 2e issues and the grade acceleration that already occurred may prove to be too challenging. She'll be with highly gifted kids that are older, plus most will not have other challenges. I guess the next step should just be getting a WISC and see exactly what we're dealing with. If she's kind of borderline I'm not sure what would be best. Not her current school but we can try to get her in somewhere else.
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