Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional teacher meeting about child's attitude

Hi,

DSs teacher has summoned us to a meeting that will include her and the principal. DS6 had disruptive behavior at the beginning of the year but has learned to keep a lid on it. However, the teacher now says there is an issue with his "attitude". As far as I can tell he is acting negative: whining/scowling below the level of "behavior", slow at his work, giving the minimum. The teacher says she wishes to explain to us how the curriculum is a tried and true method. I am guessing she's going to ask us to push DS to work hard, not substitute any work content (we had been doing this for homework), not accommodate his motor issues in homework at home as she feels they are fully accommodated already, and tell us to tell him to put a smile on his face.

I was able to peek in the classroom recently and it looked a little haphazard with more than just my child not working with effort (DS was wandering actually but so were several others). Children were doing all different things (they are grouped and the groups work independently). Several looked miserable. DS had a bunch of his school items in a ring on the floor around his desk (organizational issues). His desk was off by itself (the 4th time he's had his seating changed!) It was probably the worst possible time behaviorally to view the class as other periods are more teacher led, but it wasn't encouraging.

We are working on getting DS a 504 for motor delay. The school says he is grade level in writing. I don't think so as he only completes his work with the teacher doing half of it (which she does happily, she has been helping him quite a bit). So there is some friction there between us and the school already. Until that and DSs disruptive behavior was resolved we had not been pushing gifted issues at all. Which is not to say gifted isn't a huge issue, the busywork and lack of content is a huge strain for him.

So my first question is, how does one respond to a teacher problem with the child's attitude without insulting their classroom management or their inability to "get" the most basic issues my DS has (of which they've been informed several times)?

At this point my plan is just listen, then reiterate DSs 2 main issues (motor/gifted) again. Last meeting we didn't get a word in edgewise.Does anyone have any tips on how to politely get time to talk? I feel if I say, "Last time we didn't get a chance to speak, how many minutes will you be here and can we have half of those to share our concerns?" that I would get a poor reception.

Secondly, has anyone been called to a meeting that turned out to be a teacher show-boating to effect some goal of their own within the school command chain? How does one handle that? Part of me wonders if the teacher has some point she wishes us parents to make to the principal for her... what I don't know. That the curriculum doesn't work for all students? That the homework is excessive? The teacher honestly does not seem to have enough time to think up schemes like that, so it's just a thought of mine. But if it's really going to be a straight "this is my awesome curriculum, your kid should smile while they do it", why is the principal necessary?

MON seems like you would have insight into that last bit, you seem to really get the ins and outs of school administrations.

Thanks all for any tips or insight!

I have a thought along the lines of saying:
"I'm probably way behind on the modern research-based curriculum. I'd love to catch up. Can you give me links or point me to research that explains how your curriculum specifically supports gifted children?"

Not sure if this will be helpful at all BUT perhaps you can gleen some ideas and insights form my experience...

When DS was half way through kindergarten, I was called to a meeting with teacher, psych, and principal. DS had been very disruptive (he actually was having a bit of a 'breakdown'- he was really almost unrecognizable to me at that point). However, the disruption was subsiding since I had insisted just prior he be taken out of a particular (toxic) paraprofessional's group for writing and reading. I actually refused to go to the meeting. I had no knowledge of advocacy or anything back then, I just didn't trust them (the school) and knew I didn't "have to" do anything. I told them I would not meet (basically I flat out refused), that I was having DS privately eval'ed, and that I wouldn't meet until I had the results of a private psych eval and until we saw how well DS did once removed from the toxic para's group. I think they were calling the mtg to suggest that they evaluate him and from the previous comments of that particular school psych I knew she was leaning towards ASD/ODD etc. I didn't trust them at all b/c *I* KNEW the "behaviors" of DS were completely new and the result of being so stressed due a para that shamed him for his fine motor and unacknowledged 2 year writing/fine motor delay and unacknowedged intellignece and, of course, the school certainly isn't going to say any of THAT. After I had DS privately evaluated I called a meeting with the info and recommendations of the private eval of what DS needed, I decided what I wanted/needed to share with the school, and *I* told the school what DS needed in terms of accommodations, etc. via the recommnedations and info contained in the private report. (Incidently that first psych was not very good - again, I didn't know what I was doing back then, but it was still better situation and a more clear picture of what DS needed than I beleive I would have gotten form the school. Two years later I finally have a pretty happy little guy who is now identified as 2e and accomodated properly.

So... I hope that helps you somewhat.

A few ideas to ponder -


My first piece of advice - never guess or assume re what you will hear at a meeting. Definitely listen to your gut instincts as well as any info and cues you have from the school staff before the meeting, prep yourself to be able to explain what you think might be *behind* the behaviors, but try not to over-guesstimate what the meeting will be like.

Also remember - whatever agenda the school staff has, it is still a meeting which is an opportunity for you to voice your questions and offer up ideas you have.


Was the 504 plan suggested by the school, or did you request it? Have you had testing or observations/evals/etc to back up the request?


This can be tricky. First thing is - when you are talking about "grade level in writing" it's important to separate out handwriting from written expression and be sure you are all talking about the same set of skills. A child might be extremely delayed with handwriting but able to "write" ahead of grade level when given handwriting accommodations. OTOH, a child who has no issues with handwriting might have a challenge with putting thoughts together no matter what the output form (writing, typing etc). And there are a million other possible issues - for instance, a child who is challenged with spelling can have a tough tough time producing written work because they are expending so much energy or worry or whatever with trying to spell.

It sounds from what you've written that you are concerned written expression (the note about the teacher working with your ds individually to produce his written work) - but that's just a guess on my part. Anyway, if that's a concern, I'd probably caution you that it's possible she's working with other children in the class to the same degree on written expression. I sat in and observed my ds' 2nd grade class during writing workshop and then volunteered in my ds' 3rd grade class during their weekly writing workshop - all of this because my ds has an LD related to written expression and he was struggling tremendously in school at that time - and I wanted to see how writing was taught and what his peers were doing. There was still, at our school, even in 3rd grade, quite a bit of hands-on instruction from the teachers working with individual students when they were writing stories etc. The teachers helped across the writing process - everything from brainstorming ideas, editing grammar and spelling, etc. So "getting help" from the teacher to finish assignments isn't necessarily an indication that your ds is challenged. I'd recommend looking closely as he works at home - what does he seem to have issues with? Is he able to think up ideas to write about, and look for areas he seems to have challenges with. Bring examples of the challenges you've seen at home to the meeting (note - these don't have to be work examples, they can also be things like a note describing how you asked him to write a story about himself, and he couldn't think of anything to write, what you did together to brainstorm, did it work etc).


I don't think you've had IQ testing yet - is that right? (If you have, ignore this suggestion lol!). Our experience has been that it is hard both to argue that behavior issues and lack of achievement at this age is due to lack of challenge unless you have data to back up your argument. Having an IQ test (and achievement testing) will help tremendously, as well as potentially help to identify challenges if any do exist. I also would add that back in early elementary, before I knew my ds was 2e, I knew he was obviously (to me) quite intellectually gifted. Yet school didn't go anywhere nearly as smoothly as I had anticipated - and his teachers didn't see that same level of intellectual ability that we saw at home. I put so much of that off onto things like boredom with the curriculum, not wanting to do busy work or worksheets that he obviously knew how to do, perfectionism etc - but really, being gifted in a typical classroom wasn't what was driving most of his classroom behaviors - it was the 2nd e, an undiagnosed learning challenge, that was driving the classroom behaviors. You've already noted fine motor delays - I would keep an open mind and listen to what the teacher and school staff are telling you, there may be clues in what they have to say that while, possibly off-base, may still offer up important information.


The first thing is, I would never insult a teacher's classroom management (I know you wouldn't intentionally either). If you feel the way the classroom is managed or organized is causing challenges for your ds, then explain it without emotion or accusations. For instance, if "science" time is a bunch of kids running around doing "project" work without obvious supervision or whatever, explain that your ds needs structure to be successful. Think through what would help your ds - maybe a gentle reminder to stay on task, whatever.


This is a good plan! Try to bring any kind of data that you can too, to back up what you see as issues.


Yep, if you offered up that you'd get a poor reception! My suggestion is to first, listen to everything. Have a list with you of what you want to say - think it through before the meeting, but refrain from being anxious to share first and simply listen. Ask questions as they come up during the current discussion, but don't get off track by trying to bring up your agenda items before the school has a chance to get through their agenda (unless of course, the school is talking about something on your list). Then, after the school has gone through their list, politely tell everyone that you have additional items to address. If the school says no-can-do because you are out of time, request another meeting to address them specifically. After the meeting is over, send out a brief email summarizing what was discussed and decided upon, and at the end of that email list the things that were left not-discussed from your list and again request another meeting to discuss.


Yes, quite a few times. Our ds' first school was dead-set on denying him services for his 2e challenge, and they came to meetings well-prepared with "proof" that there were no issues and everything was hunky-dory and at grade level etc.


You will probably never know the back-story behind what's up with the school staff. In our case, ds had a teacher who was extremely concerned about his performance in class until the IEP eligibility process started and (we are guessing) she was coached by the administration to do everything she could to prove he was doing just fine. We also had the experience of having our district rep seem to nod and smile and be attempting to encourage us when we voiced an idea that she thought we should - yet she couldn't just come out and bring up the idea herself. Examples of schoolwork that were brought to meetings were highly contrived to back up the school's contention that all was well. The meetings were clearly prepped and orchestrated - but not knowing what is behind that, or what the school team was really thinking, doesn't mean you can't advocate using the data you have accumulated and your knowledge of your child. You need to really understand as much as you can about what's going on with your child, how it is impacting him in school, and what your school/school district/state policies are. That's what you need to know and present in meetings - and just keep putting that out on the table and making sure it's heard.


Again, you don't know what it's going to be until it happens. Is anyone besides the principal going to be there? Usually what happens when the principal is called in is one of two things - the principal might simply be there either to back up the teacher or to mediate, or it might be the first step in the school's process in evaluating a child for services (ie, a "team" meeting).

Hope some of that helps!

polarbear

How long is the meeting? Might you request that in order to be well prepared and make the best use of everyone's time, you be furnished in advance with an agenda of topics, discussion items, action items and decisions to be made, timeframes or important dates, etc?

Some say that coming up with a "worst case scenario" and working backward from there is helpful. What is your "worst case scenario"? For some, it may be the school saying "we cannot accommodate your needs and suggest you look elsewhere." What would be your Plan B if this were to occur? Thinking of your worst case scenario and coming up with options may prove helpful.

You may have mentioned evals and reports elsewhere, so I apologize for not recalling if you did, but just for your own preparation and you don't need to answer about it here... do you have evals and reports which document motor issues and the need for accommodations which are greater than the accommodations which he is receiving? ...anything to show he is not fully accommodated already?

Is this part of his accommodation?

The friction is disagreement regarding motor delay or being at grade level in writing? Grade level may be a wide band, he may be within low normal?

Is the meeting about one issue only - attitude/behavior?
Are gifted issues on the table for this meeting?
Are 504/motor issues/accommodations on the table for this meeting?
(Again, no pressure to answer... these are just some things to think about to possibly help you in planning and preparation)


Some might agree there may an attitude problem, while handing them copies of research-based articles describing how a challenge worthy of their potential often helps gifted kids brighten up. I may mention this too often, but Stephanie Tolan's analogy, Is It a Cheetah? can also be very helpful.


This is where nodding in agreement while passing out copies may be helpful. You may also wish to take notes. Some find good results in recapping the meeting. This has been discussed elsewhere by several posters.


This is where having an agenda may come in handy. Asking for one, even if one is not subsequently provided, may send a positive message.

Polly,

Another thought for you - if you ask for an agenda and receive one ahead of time, you can send an email request to add your items to the agenda. Even if you can't get an agenda in advance, you can send an email to the principal and teacher requesting that your list of items be added to the meeting agenda.

If they reply that there isn't time, that's ok. Ask for another meeting or ask to postpone until a longer meeting time can be scheduled.

polarbear

If a person wanted to present this at a meeting, is there an authoritative source or article which discusses this?

indigo, I don't know of any authoritative source, but we were often advised to bring these issues up by our advocate as very real issues illustrating that lack of accommodations for his disability at school was impacting his quality of life. Our advocate was able to point us to a small bit of specific wording in our state's SPED policy which addressed this too. It's too many years past for me to remember how to find the verbage, and it was state-dependent, but I think there are also references to this at www.wrightslaw.org

polarbear

Thanks, the wrightslaw website is large with many links... not finding material regarding the focus of school for a 6-year-old... Do you have a link to the specific page?

I second the request for an agenda. Also you email/mail them your agenda.

I used to get blindsided and 'not-a-word-in-edgewise' at iep meetings all of the time. What would happen was I would assume I knew what was changed/not going to be changed/going to be discussed/etc. and when I got there - things I hadn't expected would be changed, added, taken away, etc. They'd be fully prepared to present issues/behaviors/etc that I never anticipated at all, never got to speak with DS about at all, etc. They'd be fully prepared with what they thought was usually the cause (usually they are mistaken)and 'with their solutions.' I'd go home and digest the info, research, discuss with DH and DS, etc. and then email them and/or call them with my concerns and disagreements, etc. and they'd get annoyed/angry and they'd insist on another meeting (weeks away) (which they KNEW was inconvenient for my husband and me but was not at all inconvenient for them b/c they have certain times during school hours set aside for meetings (basically they are there anyway and it's not an inconvenience for them).

Slowly but surely I learned. Now I tell them I want the draft IEP with any additions, changes, take-outs, etc highlighted; any issues, problems behaviors to be discussed needs to be laid out in agenda or something (we do not meet until I get that stuff). And I email the team my agenda. Meetings are much smoother now. And I get to speak intelligently I still may need to email/call/have another meeting but this cuts down on the blindsiding A LOT. And I feel equal and confident and prepared.

Heartbreaking! So sad. Very little doubt in my mind that this would be my DS if it were not for me. (yeah I'm patting myself on the back LOL) That poor child. Unfortunately it is the COMMON story of any intelligent child (gifted or even simply bright/intellingent) with an LD.

Yes watch this! I was told DS is "pretty much fine" and on grade level over and over. It was sickening, really. I finally brought in two OT evals, from two different places, in two different states, one from a well-renowned childrens' hospital that showed him TWO YEARS DELAYED in writing. They NEVER told me he was okay again.

Thanks mon, I appreciate you taking the time to clarify, I was hoping it was the summary of a report. It's not about the child in some districts, and if an authoritative source is found, it will be used to raise awareness.

MON your tale of two children breaks my heart, particularly considering how little handwriting is needed in so many possible paths through adulthood.

I’m extremely thankful for all of your comments, and will address some below. It’s good to know everyone else struggles with these issues such as getting a word in edgewise or turning the conversation to topics that feel useful.

ZenS that’s a good idea to ask about the curriculum as it applies to gifted children, thank you for that thought. In the most-kids-are-gifted climate I will probably modify it more to asking questions to help me understand how the curriculum works in a grade where kids are all over the place in preparation. Looking for insight in that way will give me something to focus in on so I listen actively.

Irena thank you for sharing your experience, we are also doing private evaluations, hopefully we will make some progress that way. I’m so happy to hear that the two outside evals you did made a difference. How did the evaluators determine writing grade level? Were there particular tests?

Indigo – we are working on the disability documentation. On the actual writing part, yes it’s very possible he’s at low normal… I need to find some way besides asking the school to know whether he’s within the range of grade level. Thanks also for the idea of an agenda, I will ask for that in the future and add ours. I feel like I’ve made a good effort to avoid coming across as “formal” to the school but as I’ve only been met with formality I think it may be time to forego that.

Polar Bear: Thanks for the in depth comments. With a scribe writing is well above grade level. Spelling is perhaps only a grade level up but organization and output is further up. It is the physical (or motor planning) aspect of writing that truly challenges him, a row of a’s would all be different from each other. Outside of writing he has fine and gross motor delay, mostly mild.

He did have IQ testing with the wisc iv, I just hadn’t posted it. He had a GAI of 160 and the WM index was 150. But the processing speed was in the 90s. The school has that.

MON: Your comments are all very helpful, thank you. 1. He has a DCD and hypotonia diagnosis. In process with OT type evaluations. The school seems to want to save money (they are tiny and most everything has to be hired in from outside) and has not said they would reject private opinions. The hard part is getting concrete enough recommendations that the school interprets them the way they were intended. “Reduced writing” for example can be interpreted in so many ways. 2. That is great advice on the positive comments… we had said something similar in writing already so reiterating it is a good idea. We have not yet asked for more advanced material as we wanted to wait until it was clear DS was not a behavior problem. But that is a huge issue and it's hard to know how much to shoot for. 3. Asked for more detail, foiled by vague response. 4. Great idea to try to insert DS into the curriculum. 5. I think the writing level is teacher feeling, not sure whether they have to accept an outside opinion or not on that? Overall I think likely he is at grade level, the grades ahead style and narrative and slightly advanced spelling/punctuation average out with the slow speed and below average legibility.

The evaluations to which I referred were evaluations done by occupational therapists. They did not give me grade levels, they gave me age-levels. According to the evals, at 5 years old, DS had the writing and fine motor skills of a 3 year old. At 6, his evals came back as 4 year old, at 7 I believe his age equivalent was 4.8. He also did a few Bender Gestalt tests and a few Berry Visual Motor test - they gave percentiles, and if I remember correctly age norms, and he was consistently deplorably low on those as well - no matter how much therapy he gets. He came back grade level for some writing tests the school psych gave, *of course* (said sarcastically).

In terms of acceptance of outside testing, in my state, I believe the law/regulation (or something) is that they (the school district) have to accept outside eval and recommendations from a "certified school psych." Someone told me that along the way (my advocate I think)... Anyway, now I make sure any psychs/neuropsychs that I take DS to are also State Certified School Psychs. As for the outside OT evals - the school has never given me a problem with those (DS's vision doctor and vision therapist even had a conference with DS's teacher to help with accomodations, etc) but I think having them incorporated in the outside state certified psych's eval/report would solve any problems with acceptance. Honestly, I don't understand this "doesn't accept outside testing/evals" I suspect it is a ruse a lot of schools attempt to pull ....but, think about it, it doesn't make sense. So, to get the school to recognize my son's diagnosis of ehlers danlos, for example - the dx has to be made by a school doctor and not the well respected creditialed geneticist? School psychs usually can't diagnose so what happens when you have a kid with a ADHD dx from a neuropsych outside the school - does the school get to choose "not to accept it?" I wouldn't let any statement of "we do not accept outside evals/tests/Dx" to stop me if I were you. Also, just a heads up - more than one (several actually) private OTs have told me that when they worked for a school district they were explicitly limited in what they could tell the parents about the child and the child's level/progress/ect. You simply can not trust the school system in my opinon - you can find a way to work with them but you can not trust them at all to do right by your child. It's just a fact of life, in my opinion.

My DS had a hypotonia diagnosis last year... this year we found out the cause of the hypotonia is Ehlers Danlos so we have replaced the dx with that and hypotonia is described as one of the symptoms. However, I did a lot of advocating and educating last year that 1) hypotonia is neurological-based, physcial disability; and, most importantly, 2) a kid with hypotonia actually has a physical pain in his hands, wrists, posture etc. when writing (ie. so, my kid can possibly write "on grade level" for a short time but to require that of him all day is unbearable). Your child really needs a scribe and computer access for a phsyical medical condition. The hypotonia is not going to be remediated away ( DS's teacher last year thought she could "push" DS and remediate him right up to being on par with the others... unfortunately, that is not how it works and getting her and the school to understand that was a difficult process... and basically it's like saying a kid's eyesight will get better if we keep preventing him from wearing his glasses). Your son's school needs to understand that. With my son's school I took the approach that this is a physical medical condition (it is!) and it is not going away - he needs writing accommodations just like a parapelegic needs a wheelchair - period. Yes, you can make a parapalegic army crawl on the floor to get around and he can do that for a short time but what kind of effect does that have on his learning, his emotional and psychological state?

DS's teacher last year was slowly taking away my son's accommodations (b/c she thought she could get him 'on par with his peers' in a few months despite his having a neurological/neuromuscular and what we later found out was a connective tissue condition) and, as she did, he began to slowly deteriorate emotionally and behaviors started to appear (instead of realizing his deteriorating behavior was connected to him being denied needed accommodations, she thought he needed social skills group) (as an aside, that is an example of blindsiding I was hit with at a meeting: "DS is no longer behaving, he needs social skills group, etc., and oh by the way he is writing just as much as his peers now and he doesn't get his scribing accommodation! So, we'll just take those accommodations out, don't want to short-change him! Okay moving on...") When I found out about her 'plan' I immediately put a stop to it and once he started getting his scribing accomodations consistently again he began to "behave well" again.

Also, it sounds like our guys are similar (gifted with hypotonioa and DCD); although my guy is not nearly as gifted as your guy, which really makes me feel for your guy b/c my DS was soooo frustrated having a high IQ and not being able to physically keep up due to writing/fatigue etc and to "look" not-so-smart (and be treated like he is "bad' and cognitively impaired) b/c he can't show what he knows via writing, etc. - it was really very devastating for him. With an IQ of 160 you DS is really suffering a severe bottleneck with no accommodations for his DCD and hypotonia.

Irena thank you for all your comments.

Everyone's help makes a huge difference to me. Most of all to my inner feeling of assertiveness. But also many of the specific ideas were helpful. Thank you all!

It has gotten really clear to us that the teacher has discrete categories in how she thinks about issues, and to her things from one category (for example gifted or disabled) do not have any reason to intrude into another category (work ethic). In work ethic she looks solely for causes such as psychological or the child's home situation. I understand to a certain degree, they see lots of students struggle with tasks but have an excellent work ethic. But it seems so obvious to us that a child who faces hardship in more than one area would feel little pride in school, I really don't get how that isn't obvious to others.

On the plus side I think it is turning out the principal is in favor of whatever is the least difficult for the school as a whole, or is personally neutral, I can't tell the difference. Either way it is much better than if they actively shared the viewpoints.

DS had been absent a number of times and was never asked to make up work. But starting this week he has been. Coincidence?

Yes, great ideas. Some districts begin requiring students to key (type) their work in 3rd grade. By middle school, typing/keyboarding skills are essential. There are free, fun, online programs which kids can use at home to practice.