We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum. CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.
Does your school board require a WISC IV to get into the gifted program or do they use other tests as their first line of screening? What grade does the program start?
What I'm trying to get to is if it is common for them to do a WISC in grade 4 because the gifted program starts in grade 5 then I'd focus on advocating to get her on that list. If however your school uses the CCAT (or something else) and will only do a WISC in the most extreme of cases then I'd probably focus on doing it privately knowing that the odds of being able to successfully advocate for her to be the one in 500 or whatever it is pretty slim since she is at the top of the class and most schools have long lists of kids with more obvious needs. They likely don't care that she should be even higher achieving since they can't deal with that anyway.
I don't know if you can assume it is processing speed/working memory but I can say that my DS (who scores low in both of the above) is one of the slowest writers in his class. Ask him math stuff verbally and he can do it quickly, ask him to do the exact same thing but write his answers down and it takes a LONG time. At school he actually displays many characteristics of ADHD-Inattentive if the work is too boring for his gifted side or too hard for the LD side of him (it's a great combo). The whole reason we tested was because the school unofficially diagnosed him as ADHD.
IMHO most teachers don't totally get processing speed issues (but heck, I barely do and I've been living it for 7 years and reading everything I can so I try not to be too hard on them). The BEST thing having that full report to give to the school is that they stopped thinking he was spacey/rude/clueless/dumb/unmotivated/etc. They don't completely get it but they at least know he is crazy smart so they treat him differently because of that. They also let people scribe for him which greatly reduced his frustration and anger and stopped harping on him constantly to work faster.
Black cat-- Watch this YouTube and I think it will give you some ideas about how to explain the processing problem you are seeing with your child:
BTW Processing issues are frequently connected with ADHD from the reading I've done. I'm not sure what level is expected from an ADHD diagnosis but it seems some amount is. I do know that without being told of "processing issues", our Neuropsychiatrist identified a section of my son's brain showing a "processing disorder" (no more info than visible underfunctioning). We have also seen lots of gifted children struggle with lower processing speed. I'm still learning about it.
Several of us have ordered the full video after watching the youtube snippets linked above. It might even be something to share with school directly.
DS also gets lost with many steps which apparently has to do with his low working memory. I used a math example for him since that is one of his strengths so it was painful to see him struggling to do something so easy for him.
I don't know enough about the Weschler non-verbal ability test to comment on that. Did the psych give a reason for not wanting to do the WISC IV? I guess I'd try to find out why they object and try to advocate for the WISC IV assuming they will share all of the results. TBH if it is financially possible I'd strongly consider going private based on the above two posts. She has ADHD and you suspect possible other 2e issues. Unless your school psych is experienced with those types of issues and will do a full evaluation I suspect you'll get more information going private. I don't know what we would have got in-school (it was going to be at couple years on a waiting list and we felt we didn't have time for that) but I do know we came out of private testing with a very detailed 14 page report. We were then in total control over what we did or didn't share with the school and had a much better understanding than we would have otherwise. Of course if we could have got all of that without paying for it ourselves, that would have been nice
Hi everyone - if you are having an issue with a specific post or user, please contact me via Private Message or flag the post. Please do not post specific grievances on the board as this takes away from the topic. I have deleted a number of posts in this forum that are not specifically related to the thread and will continue to do across the board.
Is your DD a perfectionist and could that be slowing her down? Would the school consider a WASI (although if you really want the information about processing speed this might not give you what you want)?
I'll second the suggestion above to pursue private neurospych testing or at least some type of private, comprehensive educational eval. Your dd has an ADHD diagnosis, and you also suspect some type of 2e issue may be impacting her ability to complete her work as quickly as her peers. A neuropsych eval will not only give you test scores, but will also give you important feedback that will help you to understand what the test scores mean related to the behaviors you're seeing (slow to complete school work). It might be a working memory issue, it might be a focus issue, it might be a fine motor issue... really, it could be any of 1000 things, and having an unbiased and comprehensive look from a professional will help answer so many questions. You will also get a report outlining the accommodations (as well as remediation if necessary etc) that your dd needs, and that's where you begin with advocating - with a professional report in writing, as well as the knowledge you'll gain through the eval.
I also have found it helpful to look forward past the immediate school situation when thinking about what to do in situations like this. Right now you're focused on how to get your dd into the GATE program in 4th grade, but the CogAT testing for that program isn't the only place in her life where the challenges she has (ADHD, possible something else impacting processing speed etc) are going to impact her ability to show her full knowledge. At some point in time she'll most likely have to take timed standardized tests, eventually she'll be taking College Board etc tests, chances are that in middle school and then later on in high school her homework load will increase... things like that. The earlier you start implementing accommodations and the more you understand and have proof of why they are needed, the easier it's going to be to have them in place and not have to fight for them when they are going to count. You're seeing a bit of that "deadline" looming with the gifted program admissions testing - it *is* possible to get accommodations for the CogAT such as extended time or oral response etc. It's *not* an IQ test and it's not a test designed to tease out learning differences, so your school should be able to give your dd accommodations when taking it - provided you've gone through the process of requesting accommodations for *all* testing (classroom and state testing etc). It sounds like your dd needs extended time (and she might need other accommodations you're not aware of). All of this, from my perspective, is reason to pursue an outside eval, and to pursue it now, not later.
I'll second the suggestion above to pursue private neurospych testing or at least some type of private, comprehensive educational eval. Your dd has an ADHD diagnosis, and you also suspect some type of 2e issue may be impacting her ability to complete her work as quickly as her peers. A neuropsych eval will not only give you test scores, but will also give you important feedback that will help you to understand what the test scores mean related to the behaviors you're seeing (slow to complete school work). It might be a working memory issue, it might be a focus issue, it might be a fine motor issue... really, it could be any of 1000 things, and having an unbiased and comprehensive look from a professional will help answer so many questions. You will also get a report outlining the accommodations (as well as remediation if necessary etc) that your dd needs, and that's where you begin with advocating - with a professional report in writing, as well as the knowledge you'll gain through the eval.
I also have found it helpful to look forward past the immediate school situation when thinking about what to do in situations like this. Right now you're focused on how to get your dd into the GATE program in 4th grade, but the CogAT testing for that program isn't the only place in her life where the challenges she has (ADHD, possible something else impacting processing speed etc) are going to impact her ability to show her full knowledge. At some point in time she'll most likely have to take timed standardized tests, eventually she'll be taking College Board etc tests, chances are that in middle school and then later on in high school her homework load will increase... things like that. The earlier you start implementing accommodations and the more you understand and have proof of why they are needed, the easier it's going to be to have them in place and not have to fight for them when they are going to count. You're seeing a bit of that "deadline" looming with the gifted program admissions testing - it *is* possible to get accommodations for the CogAT such as extended time or oral response etc. It's *not* an IQ test and it's not a test designed to tease out learning differences, so your school shouldovided you've gone through the process of requesting accommodations for *all* testing (classroom and state testing etc). It sounds like your dd needs extended time (and she might need other accommodations you're not aware of). All of this, from my perspective, is reason to pursue an outside eval, and to pursue it now, not later.
Best wishes,
polarbear
I agree, I just need to get the school to see that there really is an issue and she needs a 504 plan. All they see is a very bright high achieving child, and since she's not graded on anything right now, and there are no timed tests (other than the CogAt which they are saying she doesn't need to take anymore even without a 504), they don't see an issue. But let's just say she gets into GATE. In GATE they accelerate math two years. DD will probably not be able to finish the tests or work unless accommodations are made (for instance cutting the work load). Or it could be they just don't want any 2e kids there. I sent an email to the GATE lead teacher, asking about testing and the ADHD, and she said she's looking into the situation and will get back to me.
My DS has slow processing speed. We used to speak, then count to 10 before expecting any kind of response for him. Now, he can pretty much have a normal speed conversation, but he cannot follow a fast paced discussion and will tune out. He has a "quick" mind when it comes to making connections and recognizing absurdities. But it seems to be the processing of the language that slows him down. He is also a very fast reader--up til about 4th grade, his teachers sometimes punished him, thinking he had not actually read the material because he was so fast. And they'd tell me how poor his skills were, etc.
He is also very quiet at school. School can be crazy with lots of things going on. My DS doesn't have ADHD, but I imagine if he had that super slow processing speed coupled with difficulty knowing what to focus on and what to tune out, it would be quite challenging.
My DS does have a 504. One thing it has on it is that he needs to be directly called on with a direct question if he is going to be graded on class participation-- discussions just move too fast for him to process, form a response, and raise his hand before the topic has moved on. Prior to his 504, he used to crumple up his math fact papers and his teacher quietly adjusted how she presented it to the class, making it untimed and unstressed. She did this on her own. But a 504 might have worked too.
Testing gave us that information for us to understand and years later, we were able to say to teachers-- no, he's actually listening and participating, he just can't go that fast-- which helped them not take it personally.
One other thing to consider is -- is the slow speed related to taking in, putting out, both? We know we have a taking in issue here. We know we have a handwriting putting out, and we wonder if we also have a speech putting out issue--pragmatic speech. Our neuropsych said no, but we still have to wonder sometimes when we see what he gleans from some of the literature (lol). Testing can help tease it all out--looking at memory in various forms-- my DS is horrible at names and faces and forms, but has excellent auditory memory. That's useful to know and we wouldn't know it without having had a complete battery of tests.
Were those tests expensive? Where did you go for them?
I'd start by approaching the school psych and basically state what you did above - "I've been researching both the Weschler and WISC IV and it is my understanding that both tests have timed components. We believe she has potential issues with processing speed and/or working memory and we're concerned those issues will impact the overall score. My understanding with the WISC IV is that a GAI is a possibility if that is the case, is there an equivalent for the Weschler?" or maybe just go with a simple "if this was your kid, what test would you want her to take and why?".
For parents who are considering neuropsych testing - fwiw, yes, it can be very expensive. MON's price through CTY is actually less than what the full price was for us through a local (non-gifted specialist) provider. We were fortunate to have insurance that covered part of the cost of testing - but they key to getting that coverage was to have the referral for testing come from our children's pediatrician as a *medical* referral. The testing would not have been covered if it was considered "educational" - and I really don't understand how the differentiation is made, but our neurospych's office staff helped work through the issue of what they needed to use for a diagnostic code in order for the testing to be covered by our insurance. That doesn't mean that all insurance companies cover it - but please know that most neuropsych office staff folks will be very used to answering the question "will xxx insurance cover this testing" and if they don't know the answer, they will most likely be willing to check it out with a call to your insurance rep.
Even if you have to pay for it yourself, if you can, and if you have a child that you suspect has 2e issues, it's sooooo worth it in the long run to go ahead and have the testing run. Chances are the questions you have aren't going to go away. Suppose you have the testing and find out all is well - it will allow you to move forward without wondering is there an issue. And if you find a challenge, you'll get help with not only understanding the challenge but help plannign a road map for how to deal with the challenge. OTOH, if your child has a challenge that goes undiagnosed because you put off testing... you're most likely going to spend money in other places trying to simply tread water to keep your child afloat. JMO, but I think it's better to be able to move forward knowing for sure what you're dealing with so you can spend your money wisely as the years move forward, rather than second-guessing what will help and possibly losing future $ and time.
Is your DD a perfectionist and could that be slowing her down? Would the school consider a WASI (although if you really want the information about processing speed this might not give you what you want)?
Sorry about the delay replying. I don't think she's a perfectionist. She has been bringing home spelling tests where she didn't even attempt to write some of the words and she doesn't seem too upset or disturbed about it. I asked her why she's not even trying to write the words down and she says it's because the teacher goes too fast. I asked her if she can raise her hand and ask the teacher to slow down, and she said she's not allowed to raise her hand or ask such a thing. I wrote a note to the teacher saying that DD is having a problem with the spelling tests going too fast. Teacher never replied but told DD she can't slow down or the other kids will start talking. She wrote a note on the top of the next test saying "Keep trying! It will get easier!"
I just called one neuropsych and they said it would cost $3300...some insurance plans might cover some of it. They will not break it down and just do a WISC (or processing speed, or any other part of it). That covers IQ, Woodcock Johnson (or other achievement tests), processing speed, sensory functioning, learning style, learning inefficiency, executive functioning, memory, language, and perceptual motor. That sounds good, but we're not wealthy. I know our insurance plan covers zero for neuropsych testing unless there is a special circumstance like a TBI.
I took DS to the large university near us after his brain injury and there was the neuropsych, a resident, and a student all doing the assessment together (the resident did most of the actual testing). I asked the neuropsych about DD and he said he doesn't see cases like her, he deals more with brain injury type stuff. I think they ended up billing insurance about $3000, insurance paid maybe half, and we were left with a $23 co-pay (whew). If there was ever a time when I found something good in the TBI, that was it because DS needed an eval anyway.
Now I'm looking at a place online where it is $1,075 plus another $400 to evaluate for ADHD. I wonder why the huge difference.
one neuropsych and they said it would cost $3300... That covers IQ, Woodcock Johnson (or other achievement tests), processing speed, sensory functioning, learning style, learning inefficiency, executive functioning, memory, language, and perceptual motor...
Now I'm looking at a place online where it is $1,075 plus another $400 to evaluate for ADHD. I wonder why the huge difference.
Does each include the same tests? Performed by someone with the same credentials and experience?
I don't know what the difference is. I left a message since people rarely answer phones. I think when I tried to get DD into the neuropsych that DS went to, they told me they would only see DS, but recommended this other place for DD (the one that charges $1000). It specializes in ADHD and learning disablities. I'll look for clinical trials but you'd think the neuropsych that is seeing DS would have known about that.
The Wechsler Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence (WASI) uses vocabulary, similarities, block design and matrix reasoning subtests similar to those of the WAIS to provide an estimate of full scale IQ in approximately 30 minutes. The reason I mentioned this was I was looking at your short-term goals for school placement. This test tends to be cheaper, so some schools prefer it. Still, in light of your concerns, a more complete assessment might provide you with better information for helping your DD in the future.
Ok, thanks. That wouldn't look at processing speed issues but if the school just wants to do gifted testing it would probably be better than the Weschler non-verbal ability test.
I am looking at our insurance plan and this is what it says about neuropsychological testing. So if someone has autism, they are just supposed to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket to get a diagnosis because "there is not evidence that the results will be effective in guiding treatment?" What the heck? And what about ADHD? They would rather a primary care physician whip out their prescription pad and write a prescription as soon as someone says they are not focused without doing a thorough evaluation (our plan DOES cover medications for ADHD but not TESTING for ADHD)?
Indications that are not covered
Not covered for the following conditions because there is not evidence that the results will be effective in guiding treatment: Autism spectrum disorder/pervasive developmental disorder Chronic fatigue syndrome Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) Developmental disability, developmental delay When performed in association with vocational counseling or training Learning disability Mental retardation Tourette's syndrome Baseline testing prior to chemotherapy and radiation treatment for cancer
Last edited by blackcat; 10/15/1307:15 PM. Reason: typo
our neurospych's office staff helped work through the issue of what they needed to use for a diagnostic code in order for the testing to be covered by our insurance. That doesn't mean that all insurance companies cover it - but please know that most neuropsych office staff folks will be very used to answering the question "will xxx insurance cover this testing" and if they don't know the answer, they will most likely be willing to check it out with a call to your insurance rep.
In addition, if you are sleuthing for developmental disabilities of any kind, some states or counties have entities ("county boards of disability services" and the like) that may cover the process of diagnosing, even if they do not cover the subsequent treatment. A children's hospital or the neuropsych's office should be able to advise.
I got a call back from the place that charges $1075. It specializes in diagnosing learning disabilities. For that price they do the WISC IV and the Woodcock Johnson Achievement tests. Anyone have any input about the Woodcock Johnson and whether that would be helpful for figuring out what DD's issue is?
Ok, thanks. I didn't talk to the actual person who would do the testing, just a intake person (or whatever the proper term would be). Here's the website if anyone has extra time on their hands and wants to take a look. The guy on the phone mentioned that they charge less than other places--usually that makes me suspicious. He did say that I can tell the psych what we need (for instance a GAI for gifted/talented) and they can modify the report for what we need). http://www.ldaminnesota.org/
Good ideas--thanks. I figure at the least it will give us an idea of IQ (since we have no idea) but I would want a tester who knows what they are doing with a potentially gifted child. I didn't know the tester made such a big difference in terms of the result.
