Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional WISC-IV today- just starting to understand

The developmental optometrist testing was very helpful for us. FWIW, our DS6 had 20/20 vision and was tested as >12.9 grade equivalent for reading on the WISC yet he has tons of eye issues with tracking, accommodation, and teaming. (He also scores in the 2nd% on the Beery VMI which reflects both his visual and motor challenges.) So really great reading skills CAN co-exist with vision challenges in children with high IQs.

Zen, a score near average on PSI or WM for a child who's PRI and/or VCI are high can be extremely significant in terms of how that child functions academically. For other kids, it's possible it doesn't mean a thing - the key is how the student is functioning overall, not just on the WISC tests, and also in understanding why the scores are relatively low, which is why neuropsych evals include additional testing beyond IQ and achievement.

So yes, a score near-average on PSI or WM isn't in and of itself something to be concerned about, but most of us who are posting here with kids who have high VCI/PRI and "average" PSI/WM also have other concerns - our kids are either struggling with schoolwork, behavior issues, etc - and there is something that's up that's behind those challenges. Whatever it is that's behind the issues will sometimes cause a PSI or WM score to be low relative to other scores, and although it's not the *cause* of the issue, it's often the first "data" showing there is an issue and the dip in scores can be very significant. The issue isn't an "average" PSI/WM, the issue is a challenge which is *reflected* in a dip in PSI/WM.

polarbear

It took us a *long* time to advocate successfully at school. Having the private eval was a critical first step, but we also had to do a lot of legwork of our own as parents: observing and keeping samples of the types of schoolwork where the challenges impacted the most was really key. It also helped us to simply graph some of the results from private testing in a way that illustrated the challenge. Depending upon what your evaluator feels is driving the lower PSI/WM scores, you may find there are other tests that illustrate more clearly the impact of the challenge. As our ds grew older, it was also helpful to have his input to include at school team meetings.


In our state, the state tests are *not* good measures of a gap between performance and ability for high-ability students because the ceilings are very low. There were two ways that were useful for us to show the gap between performance and ability. The first was looking in detail at the achievement tests that were done in conjunction with the IQ test. Since our ds' challenge is fine motor that impacts his ability to use handwriting efficiently, when we charted his individual WJ-III Achievement tests vs response type (oral, written and written+timed), there are very clear trends. Oral response subtests chart at around the same percentile as his VCI/PRI scores - which means that with an oral response, achievement matches ability. Handwritten responses showed a signifcant drop in scores, and handwriting+timed subtest scores were very low.

The other thing we did was to create examples at home showing the discrepancy - having ds tell us a story vs writing it out showed the difference in quality of response; having ds write out the alphabet upper+lower case and timing how long it took then comparing it to grade-norms (found online) showed his handwriting speed was significantly below grade level. While this doesn't carry the weight of a professional report, it is still an example illustrating an issue which the school then has to disprove (and most likely won't be able to), and it was a very helpful tool for us in advocating.

One other thing to consider since writing is potentially an issue for your ds, is to request the school give him the TOWL (Test of Written Language). This is a very common test used all over the US for assessing written language, and most schools will have it.


Vision can get tricky - if it's a tracking issue or convergence etc (how the eyes work together) it's something that a routine eye exam might miss entirely but a developmental optometrist exam would pick up. There will potentially be clues in your psych testing, though - possibly just within the WISC subtests, and also in additional testing if your psych included additional testing. You can also sometimes see clues in how your child holds their head while reading etc.


I would try to not put too much worry into the past and what might have caused the challenges your ds has now. The past is over, and it's what it was - you can't go back and change it, and even if you could, could you really have changed anything? My ds took a huge fall on his head in an accident when he was around 5 - and his neuropsych feels that his issues might be the result of TBI. Knowing that his fall might have caused even a tiny part of his challenges left me feeling sooooo so very sad and guilty - but the accident wasn't something I could have prevented; I wasn't anywhere near him when it happened. And in reality, we've learned in the years since his diagnosis that dyslexia and dysgraphia are present all over the place in dh's family - so at least part of his challenges are most likely due to genes, not that fall. Anyway, I totally understand the looking back and second guessing. Try not to spend any time there, chances are it's not related and even if it is, it will be ok.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thank you for saying what I wanted to say, more eloquently than I probably would have said it.

I'm not even convinced that the low PSI is not the cause of the issue in many cases. Or, more specifically, the VCI-PRI/PSI mismatch. When your brain can do the work but you can't formulate it into words and spit them out fast enough, it can be enormously challenging to deal with.

Totally agree with everything polar ear and happily mom posted! My advice would be to Heed their advice! I also blamed my DS difficult birth (and twice he stopped breathing) for his challenges. Took 8 years to finally get enough info and realize DS's birth issues were a result also and not a cause.

DS's beery VMI was Ok (around 63rd percentile) and the peceptual vision test was over 90th (with some of the subtests like visual memory being 99+ percentile). DS has a lot of problems tracking his eyes on command and I'm not sure why, but they dramatically cross like what happened when he had the nerve palsy (and that's what the OT saw when she assessed him--she was asking DS to follow her pointer or finger with his eyes and he couldn't do it at all). But when he's just moving them naturally (for instance reading), they look Ok and aligned. I'm not sure if we will go to the developmental optometrist yet. I wouldn't mind getting another opinion if our insurance will cover it. I'm curious what this computer test is that the OT was talking about, because that would probably be the only way to get an objective result since DS can't track on command when someone is watching his eyes.

Grrrr.... when others advocated for their children, trusting their "gut" that something was off, were you met with the majority of teachers minimizing your concerns?

Yes, yes and yes!

Yup, I think they give education majors a class specifically in this at college

Yep. Teachers minimize everything.