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DS was assessed with DIEBELS a week or so ago. His Diebels scores are really low - well below the benchmarks. His reading level is relatively high, though. He is beginning 2nd grade but his DRA is 28 (which is the benchmark for the end of 2nd). I am not sure what his instructional level is but at home he is reading books on a DRA level of about 40 (he needs to ask me what a few words are though). I have him read aloud to me to make sure he is reading the words correctly and he is.

Should I be concerned about the DIEBELS?

Here are the scores:

Nonsense word fluency - correct letter sound - 64 (benchmark is 74+);

Nonsense word fluency - whole word reading - 9 (benchmark is 22+)

However for oral reading fluency he scored 94 and benchmark is 80.

For oral reading accuracy he scored 95% and benchmark is 99%.

For DRA the benchmark is level 18 and he is at level 28. 100 book challenge he is at RR and benchmark is BB (two levels lower)

Ugh-- yeah. Basically, the DIBELS is not even SUITABLE for children who are already reading fluently with decoding skills and have begun transitioning to SSR which more probably uses whole language methods for common, recognized words.

For example:

How rapidly can you read this sentence aloud? Pretty fast, I think.


Now this sample:

ghive thento argen wassle trall evren subble stip arven wingle bapp voff elough.

See how much more you stumble over the second? Yeah-- well, if you weren't JUST AS FAST at the two tasks, and just as ACCURATE, then you just "failed" that portion of this test.

Since kids are often not instructed that the words WILL be nonsense, and that they need to just 'read them the way they should sound' they may think the entire exercise is a joke, or that there is something screwy with that part of the test, leading them to be reluctant to take it seriously.

Whole language readers will fail this part of things.

DIBELS is a test of reading fluency. The child (at least in the district I worked in last year) reads 3 passages and is timed for 1 minute, while the examiner marks off errors. The total score is the correct words per minute. The high and low scores are thrown out to get a final score.

You can probably find numbered reading passages online at the right grade level and test him yourself. EasyCBM is similar to DIBELS. For second grade, the 50th percentile in the fall is 49 correct wpm and 93 in the spring (I have a chart). The 90th percentile in second grade is 99 wpm in the fall and 143 in the spring. I remember DD in second grade (last year) was around 150 in fall and just over 200 in the spring and that was 99th percentile for both.

It could be that there was a problem with the test he was given...maybe they miscalculated his score for instance. Or your DS was nervous or not cooperating.

I'm not sure what DRA is, I always used A-Z (I worked as a tutor last year). But I do know that fluency is highly correlated to comprehension.

I read HowlerKarma's post and I'm not aware of DIBELS having nonsense words like that, however the district I was in used CBM's, and they were just normal reading passages. I know my kids' school uses DIBELS.

I'm surprised they are still doing nonsense words in second grade. Where I worked, they stopped in the middle of first grade, once kids started to actually read fluently. Nonsense words are confusing and I don't think you should make much of them. I tried to give my kids a nonsense words assessment once and DD thought she was supposed to individually sound out every letter rather than say whole words, so she scored low.

I think it goes to show the specific visual challenges. All the challenge areas would be realistic measures for children who learned to read by being trained on phonemes. Our visually challenged, whole word, self-taught readers don't do so well on nonsense words and exact word reading. As those skills don't map to their developmental trajectory.

I'm sure there are plenty of analogies, like musicians who play by ear, or kids who skip crawling and just start walking, or mathematicians who can't balance checkbooks, etc.

The DIBELS nonsense words are nothing like what HowlerKarma suggests. All the words have either CVC form, e.g. YOF WUB ZUC, or VC form, e.g. AJ EP IG. The test has 50 words (143 letters) and you read what you can in 1 minute. The nature of the test is clearly explained by the tester. Grade 2.1 is the last time it is administered.

22B - Do you think I should be concerned? He read fluently to me for about a half an hour today at a DRA level of about 40 ... I am just not sure what to think

The neuropsych said that "his visual sequencing weaknesses make it difficult for him to decode words accurately" she advised me it's no problem to encourage sight word memorization and for him "to memorize the configuration of the word... as that's what he is doing anyway." This makes me uncomfortable because I am phonics girl (Catholic school and all), I emphasize phonics with him at but I guess he just learns differently.

Oh good... this is good to know. Thanks!

I suspect, as Zen mentioned, that your ds' visual challenges may have influenced his scores - but I would also want to compare the results of this test to his neurospych testing - was there any question of reading challenges on that, or does he have lower scores on the tests that relate to skills needed for reading?

The Dibels is used in our school district in early elementary to screen children for dyslexia and other potential reading challenges, and scoring low on nonsense words relative to the part of the test that has the child sound out real words is a red flag. Another potential red flag are reading comprehension scores higher than individual word sounding out etc or reading from short sentences - in gifted children, this can be a sign that they are actually struggling with reading skills but able to make up for the words they miss when reading because they can put together meaning from context. I am most likely not explaining this well, but I see it all the time with my younger dd who has a reading challenge.

One thing I'd do when your ds reads to you is to watch and see if he stumbles over any individual words that may seem like words he should know. Which is tricky, of course, because that could be due to vision or it could be due to a reading skills challenge. I think what I'd do, for now, is to not worry, pay attention while he reads out loud to you, and also ask the school for further testing to determine why his nonsense word score was relatively low. There are other relatively simple reading tests that can be given which can be very helpful in determining if there is a reading challenge, and I would think with a Dibels score that low on the subtest the school would be willing to do further testing.

FWIW (probably not much lol!) - my dd who has the vision challenges had the Dibels administered in (I'm guessing here - memory is failing me re details) - early 2nd grade when she hadn't yet had her vision issues diagnosed but was struggling with reading. She actually did a-ok on the nonsense words and individual sounds but scored low on the last portion of the booklet that has longer sentences.

Hope this makes sense!

polarbear

You can find DIEBELS online for free:

https://dibels.uoregon.edu/market/assessment/material/

If you follow the link and go to the 2nd grade, you will be able to download the entire test booklet including the script.

Scores like your DS indicate to me many possible reasons for the discrepency. It could be lack of exposure to phonics instruction which does not seem to be the case for him. Or, it could be stealth dyslexia. If he is using memorization as him primarily strategy, he *could* start to struggle in 3rd grade when reading materials would include more unfamiliar words. Another possibility is that it was a task that made him rather anxious and he froze up.

I wouldn't worry about being able to read nonsense words per se but I would try to see how he copes with non-fiction materials outside of his comfort zone.

The neuropsych said she doesn't see dyslexia. He had average skills for all of the reading (above grade level but given his age average) but superior score in reading comprehension. She put it all down to his visual issues and visual processing problems... But she also said that it would be "so very rare for a kid who is gifted verbally like DS to have a language based learning disorder like dyslexia," which makes me very nervous that she doesn't have any understanding of "stealth dyslexia."

Last year his diebels were fine - well above the benchmarks actually; but his scores the year before, in kindergarten, were low - not as low as this but on the low side.

I could take him to another neuropsych and show him/her the diebels and the tests and see what he/she thinks, I guess. Just seems like I am always suspecting stealth dyslexia with him but no one seems to knows what's up with him. I breathed a sigh when his reading levels went up and his fluency went up so well and the neuropsych said she didn't see dyslexia, it's his visual processing problems I am seeing. Then I get these diebels and I am concerned all over again.

I'm glad to hear the neurospsych's take on it. Makes me feel better as I am interpreting my DS's issues in the same way. Accurately following written instructions is the one area that has some of the more annoying negative impacts for him. Irena, I hope your DS's teachers don't misinterpret the results and hold him down even further.

P.s. I know reading accuracy expectations change year to year, with third grade getting really tight (99) and if vision is causing a general 10% accuracy lost the scores are going to drop as the requirements raise.

Thanks for the clarification-- I was totally making up my examples on the basis of the different tasks involved in the two sections.



A lot of kids don't like this test and find it stressful, probably for a lot of reasons-- and anxiety definitely plays a role in performance on this one.

I don't think the assessment results that you have necessarily mean anything, but I do think it tells you something if he is actually unable to read nonsense words. I would pull up an assessment, tell him he can read whole words, and see if he can. The instructions given for the assessments are confusing and kids don't necessarily realize they are ALLOWED to read the whole words, so some kids will score low because they don't understand the assessment.

Given what you already know about your child, Irena, I'd say this is just another piece of information to back up that he's clearly not processing letters/sounds in a "normal" way. Now, as to whether or not that's concerning and worth further testing... I don't know. If he's reading at level, the school certainly isn't going to do anything for you. But if it is stealth dyslexia, you might be able to work on that at home.

I'm getting more and more concerned that my DD7 has dyslexia, but she always passed those dibels tests and reads above level... now that she's in 2nd grade and STILL doesn't know which direction to write 'b' and 'd' and 'p' and 'g' and 's' and 'z' the teacher is FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY concerned along with me. But I still don't know what/if anything they'll do. I'm waiting for her winter assessment scores then I'm going to ask them to test/assess... at least that'll be one set of free tests that I can use to figure out what's going on.

epoh, many kids just aren't developmentally at a place until 7-8yo where they CAN correct reversals.

I'd also point out that (just as we noted elsewhere on the boards recently) many early literacy practices have changed radically in the past 10-15 years, and therefore it's at least possible that some kids who are 8+, even, have not had it formally addressed as a thing that needs remediation... like invented spelling, right?

http://www.fultonschools.org/dept/psychsvcs/newsletter/winter%202008-29.pdf

My mom taught in this age cohort for 40 years, pretty much, and had dyslexia herself-- so she was VERY alert to signs of it, but also told me that letter reversals were way down the list until kids are more like 9-10yo.


I was still doing b/d reversals at that age-- because nobody had ever shown me the "trick" for remembering them.

My mom told me the trick that she used for teaching it and-- I never made the error again.

Just pointing out why the teacher might not have been at all concerned previously. It's completely age-appropriate until about 8yo, and then increasingly less so with additional development.

HTH.

Well, I worked with her at home on it numerous times last year and she still doesn't get it. If you give her spelling tests orally, she scores 100% nearly every time... if you make her write it down, errors all over the place with the letters I mentioned.

I also have noticed that she guesses at words when reading based on context/pictures, and she memorizes whole words instead of reading them phonetically. Her reading level is always assessed at a bit above whatever level they are meant to be at, but her ability to comprehend stories read to her is waaaay beyond what she's capable of reading. She avoids reading if at all possible, as well. I don't know... I feel like there's something going on.

Yeah-- big picture there, definitely cause for concern. It's also hard to say just what "developmentally appropriate" even means with HG+ kids because of wild asynchrony in play to begin with.

Epoh, I feel your pain. My DS was shown trick after trick - still reverses. IMHO, one doesn't have the IQ my son has and yet not be able to remember which way "d" goes unless something is wrong. He took some test (twice now I believe) and it showed he can not even "see" reversals (which makes me wonder - how does he read exactly if backwards letters look the same as proper ones? LOL), i.e., he can not pick them out at all. My guy has dysgraphia, no doubt, but the school will sit and tell me reversals are normal... last year (when he was in first) they told me reversals are normal through the end of first grade. Today they told me reversals are normal through the end of 2nd (he's in second) ... Next year I am thinking they'll say reversals are normal through third grade. LOL. The school psych said she "can see the dysgraphia concern" but can't call it that b/c schools don't recognize it, and she can't diagnose - she shies away from coming out saying "yes your guy has dysgraphia." The neuropsych said dysgraphia is really obvious and you need a diagnosis of "developmental coordination disorder affecting handwriting" to get the school to recognize it. It doesn't matter to me anymore because he types most of his work now and gets accommodations that he would/should get for dysgraphia through his EDS diagnosis and he is getting OT .... I am not even bothering with yet another Dx on his school record. It is a slight problem in math b/c he reverses all of his numbers (and sometimes writes his 9 as a 6). But the teachers seem use to him and do not mark him off for it usually. I am 95% positive my husband is dysgraphic (only 95% b/c he was never assessed or dx with it) as well and there is a genetic component.

Is it possible your DD is dysgraphic?

I am not as sure about my DS and dyslexia. I can't remember - has your DD been checked for vision by a COVD developmental optometrist http://www.covd.org/ ? My DS has something called strabismus (eyes crossing in) and it causes him visual processing issues. I have had him assessed a few times now by school psych (she's a good psych imo and a PhD), regular psych, and neuropsych and all say he is not dyslexic ... the neuropsych says the red flags I see are visual processing deficits. I am still not sure I buy it. He loves to be read to but, until very recently, would literally run and hide when it was time for him to read. He gets vision therapy. I have noticed since his vision therapy, his reading has really sky rocketed. I also had him read with a "tuboloo" over the summer (at the suggestion of his private OT) and he continued improved greatly (not sure if it were the tubaloo or just normal development but the two definitely coincided). I also had him do a special OT therapy over the summer and the director of that takes some credit for his reading improvement in that she told me she did some intense crossing midline exercises with him that are basic to reading and tracking skills. Again no idea if it really helped ... but there is a correlation.

So, today I met with the school and they were like "he reads so fluently and has such high comprehension these diebels scores are really nothing to worry about." They also said the same thing others indicated here that it's almost like once the child is so fluent they do worse on the nonsense word stuff. They agreed visual processing is playing a role as well. Of course, I don't entirely trust the school either. But I felt better. They see no issues with his reading he's at such a high level for his grade. I have noticed he reads signs as drive around. I have to be careful now when I am typing messages or posting even as if he is walking by he'll stop and read quickly over my shoulder. I have to say this gives me comfort b/c I know two women with dyslexia and both have trouble driving b/c they can not read signs fast enough, etc. But perhaps they are just more severe.

HTH

Also - do you have a Scottish rite close to you? They are wonderful for treating dyslexia I have heard. They are also free of cost. I know some test for free (the one nearish me does not but will look at tests and make a determination if your child would be a god fit for the intervention). Perhaps look into that... I have heard fabulous things about them.

This is my son as well.

It should be easy to find DIBELS sample tests online. Just test your DS yourself to get a better idea what's going on.

I don't think my DD has dysgraphia... her letter reversals are quite neat, actually. lol. She is an excellent drawer and doesn't really have any issues with numbers (although she will occasionally draw a number backwards, but that's gotten more and more infrequent.)

She's only ever had her vision checked by the nurse at the ped's office and the school nurse. But an actual optometrist will be on my list when we start doing testing. Her ability to handle very small things (like legos or barbie stuff) leads to believe her vision is okay, but maybe there's a tracking problem?

ETA: My poor DD also suffers a bit from being the younger sister to DS9... his PDD-NOS and anxiety tend to draw so much of our attention and patience (and paycheck!) it's hard to place something like a hunch about dyslexia or a vision problem super high up on my list! If she was an only child I'd probably have taken her to an optometrist already!