Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advice needed on very difficult teacher

My child has a very strict math teacher this year who wants to talk to me on Thursday. Some background information follows; any advice in how best to interact with her would greatly appreciated.

About DD: Grade skipped, talented at mathematics. I reviewed last year's stuff with her in about ten days before school started, and threw in some new stuff, including basic algebra. Grade level-stuff seems to be almost trivial to learn (sometimes she cuts off my explanation and finishes it for me). She gets the algebra and enjoys it. We're working from the Brown high school textbook. So, it's the real thing. She a very sensitive girl and is a teacher-pleaser.

Teacher (I'll call her Ms T. for Ms. Teacher): Her expectations are, well, odd. Examples:

• On day 4 of school, DD was in study hall during after-school care. She showed her math homework to Ms T., who said it was "all correct" but made her do it again because DD used "the wrong kind of paper."
• A problem on Thursday's assignment was marked incorrect because of a hyphenation error. Part of the answer was "thousandths." DD ran hyphenated the word as "thousand-ths." Ms. T. wrote "hyphenate only between syllables" and made DD redo the problem.
• Ms. T. corrects homework and returns it on the day it was handed in. If a student doesn't write the date on an assignment, she gives it a zero.
• Answers must be written below the line where work appeared. If they are written to the right of the work (or circled below it), the problem is marked incorrect and must be redone.
• Students must solve problems using the method taught by Ms. T. She acknowledges that "there are many ways to solve problems, but in my classroom, you do it my way." Ms. T. announced this policy at back-to-school night.

This is only a sample of Ms. T.'s rules. There are more. Many more.

This woman is the middle school math teacher and has been assigned to teach the 5th grade this year. That means four years of her for my DD. To her credit, DD sees much of this stuff. But she also says that focusing on all of Ms. T.'s rules is making her stressed and making it hard to focus on the actual mathematics. She was crying about it all on Friday.

I get the need for tidiness in math and encourage it very strongly with all my kids. But IMO, Ms. T. goes way too far.

I'm concerned that Ms. T.'s approach will condition the kids to toe a narrow line of approach to math problems. Plus, it has the potential to instill a fear of doing something a new way. Etc.

So she wants to talk to me on Thursday. She won't tell me what it's about because "she doesn't like to have conferences via email." DD told me that Ms. T. is "on the fence about putting me in the accelerated group because I'm not learning fast enough." Her teacher last year put her in the lower group. She was forced to move her up when they started long division and it was clear that DD had already pretty much mastered it. Surprise, surprise, no drop in DD's grades. Her standardized test scores last year were a sea of 8th and 9th stanines. It isn't clear to me how they make these assessments.

So, I need advice on how to interact with this person. Assume there will be no support from the principal. Also, there is no other math teacher. I'm thinking of suggesting that DD work with me at home and do assignments I give at school. Don't know if they'll go for this. Also, the school in general is actually very good apart from math instruction (e.g. they start reading novels and writing essays in 4th grade, music class is to die for, etc.).

How comfortable and willing would you be part-time homeschooling your DD in math for the years in which Ms. T would be your DD's teacher?

I, personally, would be put off by Ms. T's prohibition against solving problems by any means other than those she teaches. That doctrinaire attitude flies in the face of what it means to think, mathematically or otherwise. I see no satisfactory workaround to that attitude, even if you could negotiate concessions with her on her other administrative, err, quirks.

And not revealing the agenda for her meeting request? Unprofessional. She owes you the courtesy to be an informed and prepared participant.

I would use the meeting as a fact-finding opportunity. Why is she employing her methods? How does she respond to intelligent and constructive feedback?

I have no advice but this Ms T's style seems like a 'passion killer'. She seems way too focused on the 'how' without due consideration for developing a deeper understanding of the 'why'. What on Earth does the wrong paper or grammar have to do with whether or not a kid has a solid conceptual grasp of the subject matter?

A teacher like Ms T really gives credence to the proverbial 'teaching' because she cannot 'do it'. In your shoes, I would not be optimistic about her letting your daughter do different work - nothing I see in what you have written leads me to think that Ms T is flexible or even has much imagination, frankly. I would already be thinking about things to do with my DD outside of school to keep her love of learning Maths alive. But 4 years is a long time - eek.

Looking forward to seeing what sage advice others far more politically savvy than I have to offer. I cannot help thinking that but for the grace of God there goes my DD...

Will they allow her to NOT take a math block?

That is, can you cover it via EPGY at home?


Honestly, if you think you can sell it that way, I'd even be (somewhat) okay with them labeling my child as a hothouse flower who "lacks the maturity" for Ms. T because of the grade skip.

I think your concern is on-target.

Ugh. That reminds me of my sixth grade science teacher. He had us copy definitions out of the book. The work had to be single spaced and done in ink. It had to be perfect. Erasable ink pens were not allowed. White out was not allowed. If you messed up on the last line you had to start over or get a zero.

He would read aloud a chapter summary. Make us do the silly definition drill and then give an open book test.

I don't remember him teaching us any science. I do remember him one day telling us that the most important thing he wanted us to learn from his class was this:

When we grow up and have mortgages our lives will be a lot better if at the very beginning when we make our first payment we add a few hundred a month to the principal and continue to do that until our house is paid off.

It is great advice and obviously it stuck with me but in retrospect I think the guy was going bonkers.

The rigidity is a cover for incompetence. She must be very insecure if she doesn't know how to grade a wide variety of methods and approaches to a problem.

I think I would've successfully gotten an F with either of those teachers and passed into full jadedness. My only suggestion would be to take very good notes in the meeting and spite her email aversion with an email summary of the discussion and copy someone and asked her to confirm the content if it goes negative. And if she is as bad in person, whatever you do, don't smack her (physically or verblly :))

Good advice.

HK and I are thinking on the same wavelength with EPGY.

Agree with aquinas and 22b - she's discouraging thinking and trying to spare herself thinking, which strongly suggests incompetence. No support from the principal? Really? Even if these examples are literally true?

Also, I don't attend meetings with people who don't tell me what they're about. The only exception would be if that person had direct authority over me at work (where noone would dream of such discourtesy!) so that I couldn't refuse.

Assuming you've already agreed to the meeting, yes, listen, and then do whatever it takes to get your DD out of there.

In general, I have not had success in reasoning with people who's values sit so far from my own. For these people, I do not attempt to find common ground or to work towards a moment when favors might be asked. I am just polite the way I would be with religious viewpoints. People with eccentric practices are generally eccentric.

This teacher has called a meeting because they have something they wish to unload onto you. I would go, be courteous, and listen to them, thank them for their opinions, and go home without getting into any discussion about what would benefit your DD, just like MON above says. It is not the moment to discuss exempting your child from their class or altering it in any way so that your DD can maintain her love of the subject. The teacher may not have much ability to imagine the experience of others, as dominated as she is by her own viewpoints.

I agree with MON that the teacher cares, but I'm not fully clear on what as again the values are so different from my own. I would hesitate to make assumptions. She might feel angry about skips in general and be looking for ways to punish your child for it in some passive aggressive sort of way. Or might genuinely believe in some misplaced yet honorable sort of way that her impact on punctuation etc will improve your DD. She may have forgotten why she marks off for those errors and is simply in the rut of a burnt out teacher. One might talk to other parents to gain more insight into the teacher, but I wouldn't ask her directly.

Short term I would work on your DD to help her understand that some teachers are eccentric or picky and how to tolerate that without feeling upset. She is old enough to understand that some people have very different ideas of perfection than her (or your) own. If she brings home work that has to be recopied due to simple pickiness on the teacher's part, let her do it while watching TV or while listening to music if she's still able to work that way. Try to show not to take it so seriously, yet still to do it to the teacher's specifications.

As time goes by you could begin making vague inquiries to the administration about the precedent etc for partial homeschooling or independent on site study or whatever other options you come up with, initially not mentioning a specific subject if possible.

Have an alternate plan in place before you make any conversation with the teacher about improving the experience, lest she be crazy enough to feel offended and take that out on your DD.

Considering it's potentially a 4 year problem it is worth approaching extremely slowly and cautiously.

MoN - I was waiting to see what your take on this would be because you are really good at projecting the impression that you are assuming positive intent.

Absolutely.

This (seriously) is exactly what took place with my DD's biology teacher.

My DD was so horrified that she then failed to report additional bullying (?) within the class until much later on-- because she was afraid of what ELSE might happen if I intervened again.

Additional note, here-- this was a teacher that had the reputation among her colleagues of being "nice" and "caring" and "collegial."

But it was crystal clear that such respectful and engaging interaction didn't extend to the brightest students in her honors class.

I did (gently) suggest that perhaps that was NOT a good fit for Ms. B(iology), ultimately-- that I was concerned about the tenor of that learning environment from a more global perspective, but that ultimately, I was drawing a line in the sand w/r/t my own child.

It's the one and only time in 8 years that I have EVER done that to the school. I think that they listened to me because:

a) I wasn't the only parent complaining-- in fact, I was among the more reasonable ones, since I didn't actually HAVE a lit torch or pitchfork...

b) I had a long history of being "easy to work with" for teachers

c) my DD was still doing (reasonably) well in the course material, in spite of fairly spiteful/subjective and capricious grading... about 93%.


If you can avoid escalation here, that will be best, I think... because you don't have a lot of those factors in your favor, from what you've said.

IT'S AN AMBUSH!!!

Seriously. This woman has spent some time collecting information and marshalling her thoughts before she reached out and scheduled this meeting. You're going in cold. This puts you at an immediate disadvantage. And honestly, I think that's the way she wants it. There's a pattern in her behaviors, and it screams, "Control freak!"

The thing about control freaks is that arguing with them is futile. They don't listen to your side. They only argue for one reason... to win.

So, based on these assumptions, here's how I'd approach this meeting:

- I'd accept that this is the discovery meeting. I'd listen, ask questions, etc. And I would commit to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Anytime she asked for any kind of decision, I would defer in some way. "I need to talk with DD." "I need to talk this over with my spouse." "We'll look into this." Etc. If she presses, I would say we can revisit this topic at another meeting in a couple of weeks.

And if she has any problem with it, I would remind her that I knew nothing of the content of the meeting beforehand, so this is the first I'd heard of any issues (even if it wasn't). This problem could have been avoided if she'd told me what the meeting was about.

- Likewise, I would argue about nothing. Even a statement as seemingly innocuous as, "We don't see that kind of behavior at home" can be interpreted by a control freak as, "YOU LIE!!" In the interest of preventing the relationship from going south immediately, I'd just listen.

Wow. I always like to start going in to meeting like this like Columbo. Play dumb, see what it's all about, ask a few questions without trying to sound accusatory. This sounds like a person who will be extremely defensive. But there's always the teeniest tiniest chance that she's calling a meeting to ask your advice or to give you some great news like "we're thinking of bringing in a tutor". Well, maybe not, but I always like to think there might be some hidden bright side.

If you have the time and willingness, I would have a backup plan of homeschooling her math while she's at this school. I agree with whoever said she sounds like a passion killer. And think how stressful it must be to your DD to know that she has 3 or 4 more years of this woman for math? I was a teacher pleaser too, but I was still terrified and unhappy with the strict nuns I had for some classes, and it stressed me out.

"Thank you for explaining..."


"I appreciate learning about..." (her opinion, reports about classroom, etc.)

"It is good to hear your perspective..."

those are all more-or-less TRUE and positive or neutral-language statements that encourage communication without committing you to anything and, just as importantly, without implying agreement. They are good ways to avoid escalation-- and if MoN is correct, they'll draw out the positive side of the teacher.

On the other hand, if I am right about it, then at least they'll allow you to see just how far down the rabbit hole things go.

Good luck.

Thanks for all the great advice. These comments have really helped reduce my stress levels.

I agree that she's a passion killer, but suspect that she doesn't know it. TBH, I think she's being driven by more than just personality traits. Which makes her behavior less a choice than it might otherwise be, if you see what I mean. But I don't know. I'm only hypothesizing based on what I've seen of her and how she speaks (e.g. she told the parents that although the other teachers will answer emails if we send them after 4 p.m., she won't because she's "ignoring us.").

She did mention that she has trouble seeing, and I'm sympathetic to that. But if the vision problem was significant, I doubt she would have noticed that DD didn't draw "complete arrows" on number lines on her homework on day two. That's a fine detail. And of course, she made DD redo all those problems. Nor does vision explain the note on DD's homework saying an means one.

Taken as a whole, Ms. T.'s behaviors are making me wonder if the problem is hardwired. This makes it easier to understand and much harder to deal with.

So I'll go into the meeting and play detective/just listen. If she wants to put DD in the slower moving group, I'll have to be assertive, though. But when and how is the question there. Again, advice welcome.

Again, THANK YOU.

I'm going to defend Mrs T.

How often does this forum have threads about how to get our kids to do their work carefully and check their work for errors? These are skills that need to be learned.

She sounds like my Mrs Cooper. I had her for prealgebra and algebra. She was old, shriveled (too much time on the tanning bed), and had a horrid smoker's cough. She'd also bring her dog on days with faculty meetings. The dog would walk around on our desks during class. But I digress.

She was rigid to an extreme. She was not mean, and she had an understanding of how frustrating it could be to be in her class, but following her rigid methods allowed me to get the answer right every single time. I stopped making careless errors, because it wasn't something that would happen following her rules.

It was a frustrating two years. However, I don't make errors in math any longer. I'm finding myself wishing my kids could take math from Mrs Cooper, because they'd learn to show their work, learn that they can meet very high expectations,and learn the math inside out and sideways.

I'm about to head to my graduate level geophysics class to return homework, and I will try to teach the students about the ways of Mrs Cooper.

Give her the benefit of the doubt for now and see how it goes.

Remember that I wrote this in my first message:


My oldest son's homework is so gorgeous, teachers comment on it. This is due to a combination of me pushing him and his innate abilities in that regard. DD shares these abilities. But she is 9 and he is 13, and as I said, I think Ms. T. goes way too far. Sometimes when the details get too much emphasis, the student loses the ability to see the big picture.

I had this teacher in middle school...well, not exactly, my teacher should be retired by now.

When I look back at my schooling, it is that middle school math teacher and some situations that occured with her, that I regret most deeply in my education. Thank you for being an advocate for your child.

Because of my inability to conform to her expectations, I was given a "C" in one marking period, even though I scored 99% for that marking period on my tests. This single "C" resulted in me being held back in math the following year, which put me so far behind my peers in math that I was unable to qualify for Calculus as a high school senior...again, even though demonstrating a capability. This then created issues in college math classes. As a middle school student, I had no idea that this one "mistake" would cost me so much over the long term.

I share this to emphasize the importance of your advocacy for your DD. Part of this advocacy is having a full understanding of how the school's math system works through graduation and some options to get around potential barriers. I wish you the best of luck as you figure this out.

SO sorry you are dealing with this for your 9 yr old!! I would want my child out of that class any way possible (though mine is a 2e kiddo who could never meet many of her requirements no matter how he tried). I like the suggestion of EPGY or some other math program if you can get the school to go for it. Hope you have good news to share down the line... Any hope the teacher will retire?

It sounds like you really won't know how to deal with this situation until you have more info, which you won't have until the meeting. I would try my best to be wait until the meeting before assuming that this is all going to go south because of the teacher's methods. I have had teachers like this teacher who were rigid, and the rigidity didn't automatically mean they weren't also great teachers. So try not to overthink it ahead of time, go to the meeting and listen to what she has to say, then come up with a game plan when you know what's really on her mind.

To play devil's advocate here, just a few things that could be interpreted in a not-so-bad way. For instance, the not answering emails after 4 - the way she said it sounds abrupt and annoying, but how many of us wouldn't honestly prefer not to be chained to our work email after hours? I can see that setting up that expectation puts some clarity around when she will and won't respond - which is not all that different than saying "I'll stay in my room after school until 4 to help". Re saying that students must do the math the way she shows them how to do it - I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing depending on where your child is at in terms of curriculum - we tend to want to give our kids the freedom to come up with how to calculate early math however they are comfortable doing it as a way to prevent children from becoming frustrated and discouraged with learning math - but once you hit a certain level of math, there are ways to do things that build into other types of ways to do things.

I *totally* didn't explain that very well but what I'm trying to say is, if you give her a chance, she might turn out to be a fabulous teacher, or at least a competent teacher. I wouldn't throw in the towel until you've had the chance to talk to her

Good luck with your meeting!

polarbear

What scares me about this is the fact that this will be a teacher your child will have for many years. One year--okay. My DD had a very strict and rigid teacher last year. We considered it a learning experience--you know, some teachers are like this. The teacher was not unfair; just very, very strict, and not a great fit for my child. You can do this for a year--but multiple years? I feel very tired for your DD.

hmmmmm... unless....

the grading practices are NOT evenly applied. While I think that relatively unlikely, it's a possibility.

This is my concern. Ms. T. made it clear on back-to-school night that this year's placement will determine placements for the subsequent three years.


Yes, I completely understand this perspective and when I teach my kids, I ensure that they learn how to write something out in a stepwise way. I recently showed my DD a couple of many large spreadsheets I'm working on. I pointed out how tidy and organized they are, and told her that it's very important for tidiness and order to become second nature when working.

But I don't enforce this approach to an extreme degree. I make it age-appropriate.

As for the curricular level, it's definitely not a good match, especially because the pace is too slow. I think my DD suffers from what I call curricular blandness: when stuff moves too slowly over an extended period (as it has been for years now), one loses focus and stops paying attention.

I can tell you what I think, but you probably should not act on it.

If Ms. T gives a zero for reasons unrelated to the correctness of the work (or cheating), she is a fraud and ought not to be teaching. A grade should reflect the work done. She and/or the principal should be so informed, ideally by a group of parents.

I'm sure there are some valid reasons for taking points off for things like missing a name, but really, in this day and age, what is the lesson if you don't put a date on your work (especially if it's graded the same day you turn it in?) I don't put a date on my communications -- my email provides the date. And a zero because there is no date? Why?

DS9's teacher tried some of this heavy-handedness very briefly last year... but she dropped it in pretty short order. At one point I sent her a note letting her know DS had ADHD and there was approximately zero percent chance he was going to remember what she was wanting all the time... I'm assuming other parents contacted her as well. This was a very young teacher, though. For an older one I'd be pretty scared of how to handle this.

This is one of those areas I have the cognitive dissonance. The "right" answer is to tell the kids to check their own work. Pretend like they're Mrs. T and correct anything she would have marked as wrong. Really I feel like saying, "How can you say that teaching a child above grade level is not letting them be kids, but expecting them to perform like a computer program is?" They say there's more to school than just academics, like learning to do what your boss says. How are they not too young for that? The worst part is that your nine year old probably takes it very personally that the the teacher doesn't like her. You've got much better advice in this thread. I'm just sympathizing.

Not everyone holds that philosophy in terms of bosses or in terms of the purpose of schools.

I've looked around before, and I wasn't able to find a US public school that says this is part of their mandate. If anyone has a link to one, I'd love to see a school own up to that learning outcome.

Well, they don't put it in QUITE those terms, no-- but they do use phraseology such as:

"workforce-ready"

"the skills they'll need as part of the 21st century workforce"

"learn the (self-direction/motivation/attention to detail/responsibility/etc) that they need to succeed in life."

Those kinds of things, I see quite frequently in middle and high school. In other words, they DO consider this sort of thing to lie somewhere on the life-skills-to-job-training continuum, and be well within the mandate of public school education.

This is a false dichotomy.

I have seen capricious/unpredictable teachers who were VERY caring. But they are still quite heavy-handed at times, and downright toxic for kids who need low-key predictability in an educator. My daughter finds a teacher who changes his/her mind to not necessarily be a bad thing, actually. "OH, sorry-- I decided that the assignment was too inflexible as it was. Or-- I thought about it and decided that I didn't want students to pick from their own examples there, they needed to think about the three presented in class instead." Both are fine as long as the communication of changes in expectations are clear. (Though they wouldn't be for all students, I realize.)

I've also seen teachers who were very inflexible and yet still quite open about that-- who really DID NOT care a whole lot about students as individuals. They saw their OWN needs as absolute, and those of students as paltry considerations by comparison. "Why should I write a make-up final for you just because you were in an auto accident?"

So I agree that the two things may not correlate well all the time.

I've read that employers of high school graduates may require a diploma but rarely ask for and evaluate the high school transcript, or ask for test scores (even students who don't take the SAT or ACT have state NCLB scores), which they would do if they cared about what students had actually learned. Therefore a high school diploma is largely a marker of conformity. Treating it this way may be rational. Dunkin Donuts (to use a Massachusetts example) does not need its employees to solve algebra problems or write essays, but they do need to be pleasant and punctual.

It isn't explicitly stated because it is SO ingrained in the institutional framework they don't have to say it. Why do schools have bells/buzzers? Because factories did (do). Why is standing in line/taking turns so important in elementary school? Because that is the type of behavior needed by employers. Someone who respects authority and follows directions. Now they say they want critical thinking and "21st century" skills, but in practice it seems that they still value form over content.


This.

Ugh, this topic always depresses me. Val, I don't have any advice better than what you've already received, but I hope the meeting goes better than expected.

Val - first of all, my sympathies - this is a bad situation.

There is great, very nuanced and balanced, tactical advice in this thread.

My take on the situation is this.

If nothing is changed, this teacher will harm your daughter.

(Especially, IMO, because your child is a 'pleaser' (that is, it is important for her to 'be a good citizen',etc.). A nonconformist child would probably cause the situation to explode, while a 'pleaser' would suffer internally.)

One year would be bad enough, but 4 years is really aggravating.

In addition, this subject is an area of interest/strength for your daughter.

I could consciously throw an area in which a child is not interested under the bus (which I admit I do), but it is critical for the areas of interest to be protected (to be 'safe havens').

There are interesting details in the second part of your post that give some hope that there may be a way out. I'd really try to see what this teacher is - if she would care about your child's well-being (even if she understands 'well-being' differently - which she might), and, secondly, what is her motivation. (The answer to the first question would drive further considerations, and the answer to the second is just very useful. I apologize if this is too basic, but basic things do get overlooked in the heat of the moment.)

I wish you good luck and enough strength and wits to resolve this.

P. S. My first thought (and, incidentally, the first reply in this thread) was about some kind of partial homeschooling or independent study.

I'd look into CA state (peculiar) regulations on 'parent's choice of schooling'. I suspect you would need the school's good will for any kind of 'partial schooling' (and you mentioned that you do not expect that the principal would help).

Quick question: DD is in 5th grade. Ms. T. expects them to take precise lesson notes while she lectures and writes stuff on the white board. This is the basis of what they use for homework.

Is age ten-ish too young for that expectation? I want to say that my hand was still getting tired and sore from lots of writing at that age. I'm also not sure I would have been able to take decent notes. I remember a couple of teachers talking about how to take notes at the beginning of seventh grade. In fifth grade we were still learning how to draw a margin, write short essay answers to a series of questions, and skip lines between them.

But I'm only one person. What do all of you wise people think?

I vote challenging, but not frankly unreasonable. DS9 has that kind of expectation on him, new in the last year, but I get the impression that not everyone in his class can really do it yet. It would surprise me if your DD were the only 10yo having trouble with that, but it would not surprise me if a good majority can rise to it.

Hmmmm-- 5th grade. In terms of on-level expectations? Or accelerated ones?


I think Colinsmum is probably correct developmentally-- this is about the age at which my DD started having the CAPACITY to take notes, though they were not always thorough/good.

Back in 5th grade... hmm... yeah, this would have been on the VERY high end of the expectations.

I'm pretty sure that not even DD's Algebra I teacher really had this expectation of her... but this is confusing for me personally given the lack of directly comparable features in our model versus yours, and in the similar age but not class level.

(DD was enrolled in high school algebra at 9, so not really comparable in terms of expectations, which, to be clear-- we and the teacher both offered to scaffold somewhat due to asynchrony and age.)

I'm trying to think when note-taking became an EXPECTATION in other classes. About 7th-8th grade, really. Oh, sure, they taught the skill at about 6th grade, but not all of the 11-13yo cohort was really capable at that age.

Thanks for the replies. All the kids are expected to take notes in math class. They aren't splitting into advanced/regular until next week. I'm actually trying to understand if this expectation is reasonable for all of them at that age.

Is there going to be a primary textbook? I'd be worried about this even more than about the age-appropriateness.

- Is your child going to be graded on note-taking? (This is a math class.)
- What if your daughter misses the class?
- What if you see something wrong/strange in your daughter's notes? (This could be the 'teacher's way' - or it could be a failure to take 'precise notes'.)
(In the last 2 cases I guess you'll need to find another excellent note taker in the class.)

Great point. I meant to mention that as a potential source of disaster-- from personal experience, I mean.

There's a textbook for some material, but not all of it.

To add a bit more, I've recently learned that other students and parents have frustrations with this teacher. Another of her practices is to call out kids who get the right answers in front of the whole class (eg candy to kids who pass timed tests and nothing to those who don't, and saying "Sally got this one right and no one else did)."

Thoughts?

My only thought is that your daughter needs to avoid this teacher.

She is probably set in her ways and will not change.

Try to ask local parents (current and past). It is not a new problem - other people have tried to deal with it. (Local internet forums might also be useful.)

(You'll also need to do this discreetly. You might not want to be the main troublemaker in the teacher's eyes (unless you have to). Though you may already be a prime candidate for this role - as the teacher wants to talk to you.)

A successful parent rebellion (and the resulting change) is unlikely. If it has not happened before, why should it happen this year?

Thoughts?

Um, nothing printable or fit to state in mixed company, I'm afraid.


How does this kind of thing foster a "positive learning community?"


It seems inappropriate developmentally to have that kind of "us and them" mentality, and a dog-eat-dog kind of competitive atmosphere in a classroom. It's not as though tweens generally NEED a lot of encouragement toward excluding and humiliating/shaming their peers, after all.

VERY Lord of the Flies of her.

What about kids who are motivated by competition? I wanted to do better than other kids in school, and I did not mind being recognized for it, but I never tried to hinder anyone else. There is little or negative social benefit to being a top student in elementary school, but by high school there was (in part because the smart kid could help you with your work). There are countries where class ranks are posted from 1st grade on, and it's not clear that their educational systems produce inferior results to ours.

There is significant evidence that such environments may well be the main reason why girls tend to avoid STEM into and after adolescence, however.

If it's inappropriate for a good percentage of students, it's counterproductive. Our educational system here is obligated to meet the needs of all eligible students-- not just some of them.

Kids who are motivated by competition naturally will find ways to compare and compete. The problem is that a teacher that avoids collaboration in a classroom is shutting the door on anything ELSE.

Well, I disagree with you on this one, Bostonian. My DD had a similar teacher in 5th grade- her 100%s were always announced, her essays and writing read aloud to the class. We complained and the teacher continued to read the top scores, while leaving my DD off the list (as DD explained, this was almost worse, because by then everyone knew she had top scores, and was being left off conspicuously...). It led to a year of terrible exclusion and bullying, which the teacher seemed not to notice or at least acknowledge. She completely didn't get it.

As far as note-taking, Val, this is pretty standard here in 5th, though with some scaffolding (ie, surprise notebook checks to make sure everything is as expected in the notes). That said, our math program is quite different- they don't seem to have much of what I would consider note-taking in math, but do in other subjects.

Indeed, HK.

It's also worth noting that a successful career in STEM requires collaboration, so a teaching environment that focuses on competition produces an unsuitable job force.

Boys have now fallen behind girls academically in the U.S. (for example in the number getting bachelor's degrees), and some have speculated that removing competitive elements from the classroom can turn off boys. What about meeting their needs?

Val, our schools start teaching and expecting note-taking for subjects like Social Studies, Language Arts etc in 6th grade (middle school). I see note-taking in math as a slightly less complicated skill, and students here are typically starting to copy an example problem from the board in 4th-5th grade, and I'd be ok with a teacher expecting that in 5th grade for sure, especially once your child is in accelerated math (which I realize hasn't happened this week yet :)).

In your dd's situation, I think the problem is larger than concern about one thing here (note-taking requirement) or one-thing there (type of paper etc) - your dd and you are uncomfortable with the teacher. We're all going to run into a year here or there where our kids have a teacher we don't get along well with or don't like or whatever - but your dd is looking at another 5 (?) years with this teacher. So from my perspective you need to focus your efforts on finding a way to get your dd out of this teacher's class all together. Since she's the only math teacher at the school (I think that's what you mentioned before), I'd probably focus on putting together some type of plan for your dd to work independently through an accredited online course or something similar, as independent study - if you think that would work for your dd.

I seriously doubt the teacher is going to change or her methods are going to change.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks again for all the thoughtful comments. In a nutshell, the teacher accused me of pushing my daughter for selfish reasons and I ended up writing a letter to the owner and principal. I mentioned that parents of at least two other kids share my opinion about her.

Re: the notes. She expects them to take notes on entire lectures, including methods and approaches, rather than just individual problems or homework assignments. IMO (based in part on what I've read here), teaching fifth graders how do this is a great idea, but expecting a fully formed skill from the first day isn't.

I agree that she's not going to change. I'm feeling really stuck here. DD loves this school and her friends there, but she's always been frustrated with math. Apart from one incident last year, we let it slide because overall, it hasn't been a major problem, and with minor exceptions, everything else about the school is wonderful. But the problems with Ms. T. are a big deal, and I'm torn about what to do.

Argh.

Being highly OCD and a teacher-pleaser, myself, I would probably have thrived in the atmosphere of "name goes on this line, date goes on this line, answer goes on this line, use this kind of paper", though if the teacher's method of solving the problems went against mine, it might have caused some friction. If one can internalize all the rules and reliably follow them, this kind of teacher can be like taking candy from babies. But I shudder to think what my DS would do in that class. There is zero percent chance that he would ever get anything higher than a zero, even if he knew all the answers off the top of his head. I would have to pull him, no doubt about it.

The fact that you are looking at four years of this teacher and she is already against your DD pretty much says to me that you MUST find another option -- online math or something. It's just not going to work.

And yes, teaching 5th graders to take notes on lectures is a fine idea, but expecting them to have already been taught, in her own personal anal method, is insane. And taking lecture notes in a math class seems fairly useless.

DS is in 7th grade (though 5th grade age) and it's still a miracle if he manages to write down homework assignments. He lost his sports picture check twice yesterday -- DH had to take it to him at practice, and then he misplaced it again before he managed to find it and turn it in. Expecting lecture notes from him would be akin to expecting him to flap his wings and fly home.

This is such a tough situation to be in! What are your other school options? I'm just curious.

Our ds switched schools in 6th, my dd switched later on as she was moving into 5th. Our ds switched partly because he was frustrated with not being accelerated specifically in math, but also lack of overall pace and low levels of intellectual discussions (and in his case, there was a 2e related issue too). The thing is - up until that point at the end of 5th grade he had been adamant that he didn't want to switch schools, and even then he was still worried about leaving behind the place that he was comfortable in just from having been there for several years. Yet his new school, which gave him what he needed in terms of challenge, was such a better fit that he was instantly happy and never once looked back.

My dd is an extremely social kid. We offered to let her switch schools when ds did and she was *adamant* that she would not ever ever ever switch schools and that she wanted to stay with her friends - so we let her stay. After just one year of listening to the things ds did in school, of walking into the building with me to pick him up and seeing the school atmosphere and getting to know a few of the kids - she was begging to switch to his school So she's there now and has also never looked back. Soooo.. it might be worthwhile just looking into what your other options are and if you find a school you think you might like, have your dd try it out for a day.

polarbear

I'd answer this (because as a post-secondary science educator, I do have some insight) but it seems kidna off-topic.

Suffice it to say that I think that your point is an entirely valid one for an extreme environment-- for example, one in which no quantitative grading or individual assessment occurs. Those environments, thankfully, are somewhat rare. What seems to be much more commonly toxic to boys is an expectation of rigid conformity to not-entirely-age-appropriate impulse control, activity levels, etc.

On the other hand, it's probably not a bad thing that the 'average' classroom practices in primary and secondary resemble something that doesn't favor either extreme (neither exclusively competitive nor ANTI-competitive) at this point. It's much more reflective of future professional environments in STEM at this point, in my opinion (and my DH's, who is much more competitive by nature than I am). Now, the relative rigor of curriculum presented is another matter entirely, and I think we can all agree that this particular problem is helping nobody at all. {sigh}

STEM is still the one place where I think that this balance is about right. (Between the prosocial/collaborative/unranked/we're-all-winners-here assessment model and the winner-take-all/strict Gaussian grading/name-and-shame ones, I mean.)

Not coincidentally, it's also the one where there isn't a lot of gender disparity favoring female students in higher ed. If anything, male gender is still normative in the physical sciences and engineering.

Back to the practices that Val is seeing, though-- this kind of thing just seems a bit like shaming and divisiveness rather than healthy competition. I'm not sure that is good for any of the students, given the other issues related here; I strongly suspect that this isn't tied very closely to content mastery in the first place, and is probably REALLY punitive for any students in that class who have slower processing speeds or deficits that limit the neatness of their work or their relative attention to detail (math comprehension notwithstanding).

If you wouldn't give an A to a student for being well-groomed and pleasant, then maybe giving an F for not writing neatly enough doesn't make any sense either, KWIM?

I'm really concerned for your DD, Val.

My twice-skipped DS had the same problem through 7th grade. Take heart: with him it started getting better in 8th grade and is now not a problem in 10th.

The Wikipedia has interesting information about why this problem occurs. Perhaps it's more about executive function:

Exactly. At back-to-school night, she told us that all that mattered was improvement. That sounded reasonable. But if improvement is all that matters, why is she giving sweets to the kids who finish in less than x minutes?

Why is she giving sweets to kids anyway? Is she a confectioner or a teacher?

+1 aquinas.

Update.

The good news: DD will be in the accelerated group. The meeting last Thursday was postponed. It will take place tomorrow, and the principal may attend.

The bad news: The kids have to staple their homework assignments "diagonally" in the top left corner. If they don't staple the right way, they will lose points.

Oh dear. You people could be forgiven for thinking that I am making this up, but I promise you, I could not make this stuff up.

LOL - how many minutes of arc tolerance does the battleaxe allow on the stapling?

I had a teacher that took points away for stapling incorrectly.. in the early 70's!

Maybe it's the same teacher.

Seriously? No words!

ROFL.



Yikes, Val.

Dear god. What a waste of everyone's time!

Val, your edit reason says it all. Nobody could make up stuff that ridiculous! Sounds like my MIL...

This is vocational preparation for working in law firms for difficult partners.

In some cases, improperly stapled or affixed documents will cause you significant career distress and could result in your termination if the partner is having a bad day.

I always advise my kids to staple on a 45 degree diagonal. This results in the least stress and thus minimizes the chances of the paper ripping.

I had a professor who deducted points for horizontal/vertical stapling. Since some kids didn't follow his reasoning, he spent an entire lecture proving his point. Since then, I have always stapled at an angle.

May I suggest a red Swingline stapler as her end of year gift?

Some people, however, prefer the vertical or horizontal affixation for purely aesthetic reasons or to make sure that the reader's attention is purely on the text of the document.

They may not like the jarring visual discontinuity that results from the crisp white (or slightly off-white) right angle of the corner of the paper is juxtaposed against a free floating staple that forms a somewhat incomplete triangle.

Instead of their eyes being drawn either to the right, in the case of a horizontal staple, or downward, in the case of a vertical staple, the author of the document may be terrified that the reader of the document may find their eyes drawn to the subtle optical illusion of the triangle.

In addition, when such documents are reviewed, instead of the reader turning the page, in the case of a vertical staple, or flipping the page upward, in the case of a horizontal stable, the pages joined by a diagonal staple awkwardly pulls the readers attention to the off-angle.

If the document is provided to a member of the judiciary who is troubled by such a disruption in their normal way or reviewing documents, or counter to the express rules of document preparation, they may find that their entire argument is rejected due to the stress of the (ostensibly insignificant) violation of the rules.

This is an important life skill, because sometimes papers... wait, what are papers again?

Papers are those flat things people used to staple back in the olden days.

Okay, what's a staple?

Oh yeah, I remember... like meat, grains, and vegetables.

Paper was a real office staple way back when.

I think this teacher missed her calling in the military.

I had a chance to perform a randomized study of stapling today. My results suggest that staples parallel to the top edge (A) and placed a random distance from the top results in the most efficient paper stacking. Staples parallel to the side (B) tend to be placed more conservatively towards the edge with a reduced variation of placement and thus an increased stacking depth at staple overlap. Diagonal stapling (C) has less variation in placement but more variation as expressed in minutes of rotation from forty-five degrees resulting in consistently the largest paper stack thickness.

Sample size:
n of (A) = 14
n of (B) = 0
n of (C) = 0

Studies of friction in each direction were not studied to determine mean proportion of stack slide.

On an unrelated note, the coefficient of friction of a corn cob is somewhere around 0.83154

Oh, I don't think so...

Hi, Val,
Sorry if I missed this up-thread (I read some of it earlier but we're up to 9 pages now!), but if the teacher is this particular it must have come to the attention of other parents as well, I would think. Have you had the opportunity to discuss this with anyone else--because that might be helpful. (On the other hand, perhaps it would be tricky if your kid is working far ahead of others, but still--the staples?? I would think most parents would find that ridiculous, at least in private.) Also I would imagine somebody who is this picky about what the students are doing might also have rubbed her colleagues the wrong way as well. It would be nice if teachers like this faced some pressure--social or from people higher up the scholastic food chain--to be more reasonable.

I think all this is just a big cover up for making sure all kids perform as AVERAGE in the end. Those ahead will lose points for redundant work. Those behind will gain points by doing the redundant work. It all confirms that schools want the kids to perform at the same level ... this is the perfect way to balance out the kids' results!

And personally, I prefer vertical staples close to the edge ... make it easier for me to make photocopies without taking out the staples or tearing the papers!

I would report the teacher saying that she isn't taking her meds.

I'm sitting here waiting for the meeting to start. Thanks for all the laughs about the staples. Zen Scanner, you should consider writing up your study. I will volunteer to peer review it (anonymously, of course). It's a good candidate for an august publication known as the J.I.R. .

Okay, off I go. Wish me luck. Or staples.

Good luck!

Good luck Val. Having the same kind of issue with Mr W's teacher.

Fingers crossed for you Val!

Lol, thanks, and good staples to you, may the coefficient of friction be in your favor.

Well.

I suppose the summary is that Ms. T. wasn't interested in most of what I had to say, but I did get through on a couple points at the end.

The sad part came when we were talking about expectations. I told her that I'd been reading about executive function and asynchronous development. She didn't seem to have heard of either idea and I defined them and said that researchers had found that some cognitive abilities, such as math or reading abilities, can lag behind other ones, like planning ability or organizational skills. I'll skip all the details, but that line of conversation was terminated abruptly when she told me that she "would just expect all of these things to develop at the same time."

She agreed that hyphens and commas aren't mathematics. This is about "following directions." I mentioned that maybe too much of it can kill enthusiasm, but she didn't seem impressed. She admitted that she figures that at least half the fifth grade is afraid of her. She also said, "But I don't care. I'm here to teach them, not baby them and once they get to know me, they won't be afraid of me anymore." Uh-huh. I mentioned that there's a middle ground between babying and being too strict, but I didn't get the sense that that idea made much of an impression, either.

I finally got fed up and told her that I was concerned about psychological damage to my kid and that we'd be revisiting the math arrangement in 4-6 weeks.

I did get through to her on one fairly big point, and the whole fifth grade will benefit. She gave them one of those beginning-of-the-year assessments and was APPALLED at how PATHETIC everyone's answers were. I asked to see the assessment. Turned out it was an end-of-year assessment. She had only looked at "the chapter titles of the fourth grade book" and written the test on what she assumed were the details. DD did the stuff we'd gone over already and didn't know the stuff we hadn't. Oh dear. Ms. T. actually looked surprised and said, "Maybe I better talk to the 4th grade teacher." I had to keep telling her "I went through this with DS last year; I remember what they learned and what DD learned."

So she's teaching fifth graders and clearly didn't even bother to look at the fifth grade math book.

To be fair, she made some good points about skills that kids need to learn. Yet she didn't seem to think she had to actually teach these skills. My impression was that she just expected the kids to acquire them because she tells them to.

For me, the single most frustrating thing about dealing with schools is that people can be so certain about things they are completely clueless about. My DD's teachers are very skilled at smooth talking confidence in this respect. And there is simply no getting through to them. I really have to just give up, accept it, and move on. I cannot communicate with these people because they are not interested.

Argh.

I don't suppose it's a public title I school and the requirements for highly qualified kick in. A middle school math teacher may not actually meet the requirements for highly qualified elementary school teacher.

It's a private school.

But, to segue from my own thread, I looked up the requirements for "highly qualified teacher" and they don't seem terribly stringent to me:



One would thing that this stuff would be the [i]minimum for anyone wanting a teaching job at a school, not a standard for being "highly qualified."

To segue back to your question, by these standards the answer is yes. IMO, she isn't (degree is in a non-technical subject).

Do you think Mrs. T has a valid teaching license?

I was rather dismayed when I looked up the teaching licenses of our private gifted school's teaching staff. Several were not licensed to teach in our state.

I learned that when people act unprofessionally... well they actually might NOT be professionals. States often have no requirements for private school staff. You can pay a hefty tuition bill and end up with an unqualified teacher. Might be worth a look at your state board of ed license look up site.

She gave the end of year test instead of the beginning of year? Did your child pass? You would have thought the high proportion of "pathetic answers" would have given her a clue.

I forgot to write a detail: she wrote the test herself. She wrote it after a self-admitted cursory glance at the chapter titles in the 4th grade book. Even after I told her that five out of ten questions were taught in 5th grade and not in 4th, she still wasn't completely convinced.

She assumed that the pathetic answers were due to the kids forgetting what they had learned. It clearly hadn't even occurred to her that she had tested them on stuff they hadn't learned yet. Nor did she seem to have gone through the 5th grade textbook, which of course, she is supposed to be teaching. If she'd looked at it even semi-carefully, she would have known.

Surely that is something you can escalate to administration? How can she have any idea what level children are actually at when she's not even testing the right thing?

Ideally, grades in math class should reflect what math a student knows, not how he staples, but are there consequences for getting a C vs. an A in 5th grade math? For example, will the A students be sent to a different math class in 6th grade? (Sorry to the OP if she has already answered this question.)

Getting my first C in sixth grade math from this teacher's equivalent when I was in school convinced me grades were a complete fraud and certainly heavily flavored my interactions with school from then on.

In what way? It may be a lot to ask, but I was wondering whether this could be turned into a good thing. Amused contempt is in many ways the right approach to grades - get away from seeing them as a judgement of oneself, and see them as a school game which at certain times will be important to play well, but which fundamentally is far less important than learning stuff. If Val's DD could take this year as a chance to learn that, that'd be positive.

The thing that's got less attention than many other things in this thread, but which bothers me far more, is the teacher's professed unwillingness to accept maths problems solved in a way she wasn't expecting. All the rest is small, if annoying, stuff, but that's important.

Yes to ZS's post. Also-- getting MY first C from one of them in Algebra I as a seventh grader is what made me so utterly sure that I was a "bad" student-- I just didn't know it...

and that I was (evidently) particularly bad at mathematics. This impression was fully reinforced by encounters with two MORE math teachers like this during my high school years-- one of them fully competent (well, apparently-- he taught calculus, anyway) but mustering such an intense personal dislike of me that he actually TOLD my mother during a conference-- even knowing that she was a teacher herself, and in front of me, no less-- that the reason I wasn't doing better in his class was that he "just didn't like me very much." The other one was so appallingly incompetent that I am astonished that she continued to be employed by the district. No-- I'm very much afraid that once one ventures above elementary grades, mathematics instruction in public schools is VERY hit-or-miss.

And yes-- it matters. It particularly matters to girls, who are more likely to take a fixed mindset with aptitude in STEM, and far more likely to be teacher-pleasers who internalize apparent failure.

I didn't recover fully until differential equations, taken under duress during my senior year of college. Man, I felt like Cinderella had finally gotten to go to the ball. But I have never really gotten over it. I assume that pretty much every one of my peers (meaning those with similar intellect and education) is better at math than I am. This is clearly not the case. But the alternative explanation-- that I had not one, not two, but THREE capricious and hostile teachers who made it their mission to suck the joy and animus from math students-- seems less plausible than the alternative presented by imposter syndrome.

So no-- this kind of messaging to students at this particular developmental juncture is incredibly damaging. My lack of confidence with mathematics really held me back in an area of strength and passion.

Amused (with a pinch of self-righteous) contempt, definitely. Perhaps I took from Wargames that the only way to win was to not play the game. It meant in the longer term that I was unwilling to do any work that I did not see directly enhancing or self-confirming my learning in a subject.

I would explain to teachers that "no I would not be turning in my 'class notes' that I would not be taking" or the useless algebra homework. "That's fine, whatever grade you deam appropriate based on that. I am concerned over mastering the material and will only be interested in my test and quiz results." Slightly over-categorized as that competed with my general fear of conflict.

In middle and high school, plenty of Bs in classes that would've been As, but nothing too drastic beyond a few lectures from teachers that I would be unhireable.

It didn't work as well with under-challenging college classes where I would decide a term paper here or there was not relevant to my learning particularly as a requirement from the people I was paying to teach me.

The C wasn't the first straw, and obviously different people in different family contexts, etc. would react different.