Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy I don't know what to do anymore

I just want to cry. After 2 weeks of school in the G&T class 7 yo dd is hating school again. Yesterday she faked a stomachache on the way into school but only spent 2 seconds at the nurse's office. While at recess she told the monitor that she hates school. Today she was in tears and I could barely get her to walk into the school.

Last night for homework she had to write 10 sentences about what she thinks/feels about her class/school so far. The first page she shared an idea she had about writing non-fiction books about animals (i.e. how to go about picking the animal, again my dd is all about the planning and details). Then the next paragraph she wrote that she hates school, that it's too long, that she has no friends, and that she hopes she gets sick so she doesn't have to go. I asked her if she has to read this assignment out loud to her class if she will be okay with that and she said yes.

She says she doesn't want to learn. She can be lazy, she is careless with her work at times and rushes to get it done. In class they have a math workbook and the teacher lets them skip pages and do what they want to do so she'll skip to the interesting things and avoid what she may consider too much work or require her to think a little more. When she begs to stay home she claims she will do school work at home to make up for not going to school. If I felt I could homeschool her successfully I would, but I don't believe it would be in her best interest.

I'm really at a loss as to how to handle this. Should I go to the school and ask for help? They have a social worker who is part of the G&T program and goes into the class one to two times a week to talk to the whole class. Maybe he could talk to her or observe her?

I'm so sorry for you both!! This situation really sounds miserable.


Honestly-- it sounds at least possible that the learning environment that she's in is so inappropriate in so many different domains that I'm not sure that you can get help from the school with this.

Not until you have a handle on WHAT you want them to do to improve the fit, anyway.

It doesn't sound like you know at this point, and (unfortunately) your DD is not at a place developmentally where she does, either.

Honestly-- I know that what I'm about to say isn't what you probably want to hear--

I'd consider homeschooling until she has the self-reflective/self-aware qualities that would allow you to HELP the school find solutions to problems with placement.

(That assumes that you have little reason to suspect underlying 2E issues-- if you DO suspect those, even a teeeeeensy bit-- make phone calls TODAY to seek evaluation.)


Okay-- this seems familiar-- does she have an explanation about WHY she doesn't want to "work hard" or tackle challenges?




If you don't mind, can you explain why you think that homeschooling would be bad for her in particular?

I do suspect the possibility she could be 2e for a few reasons.

1. There's a 27 point difference between her PRI and VCI on the WISC and a 39 point difference between her PRI and PSI.
2. Writing is a bit of a challenge for her
3. She doesn't strike me as a HG kid when it comes to her academics (but again I can't tease out whether this is underachieving on purpose or not)
4. Her older sister is dyslexic, dyspraxic, and has dyscalculia. However, younger dd doesn't show the same struggles or issues older dd does so again, I just don't know.

She is struggling socially so I would hate to pull her out to homeschool and have less opportunities to socialize.

What tests are recommended to evaluate for 2e?

Is there any chance her unhappiness is primarily or largely about social issues? Although the "not wanting to learn" comment would concern me quite a bit as well.

HUgs--I know how hard it is to have one who doesn't want to go to school and cries about it.

I agree with HK that it is worth really exploring homeschooling. And I am very much NOT sold on the socialization benefits of traditional public school. I believe there are other opportunities to socialize that may be more beneficial, and the homeschoolers I know certainly do not lack opportunities to socialize--if anything they have greater opportunities for more meaningful socialization.

The "socialization" I think is important at school doesn't have much to do with "socializing" in the sense of making and maintaining friendships. For a kid with social skills challenges, it's often more about learning flexibility, following instructions and rules (and knowing when to bend rules and when not), how to cope with tasks you don't want to do, etc. Those are the "social" aspects we expect our 2E DS to learn in school.

Agree with HK that asking the district to evaluate is a good idea. Make a list of all challenges-- social, academic, and practical, with examples, so that it's clear what you're asking them to look for.

DeeDee

This is where an accurate diagnosis from someone who really gets 2E kids is crucial, right? B/c if this is a non-2E gifted introvert, vs. a gifted kid on the spectrum, the approach would be different, right?

I agree-- socialization IS critical for kids who have struggles in that arena... but--


I am going to challenge that a bit.

Is this true? In what context? How is that statement UN-true?

Actually, homeschooling can provide a BETTER opportunity to work on the issues that need the most intervention or explicit instruction/practice. For most kids, that is academic learning... for HG+ children, though, it may well be something else.

The problem is that this isn't what a classroom environment is set up to do, see-- so if YOUR child would ideally spend 75-90% of her school day "learning appropriate social interactions with peers," then that puts a bit of a monkey wrench in things if those same peers need to be spending 75-85% of their school day doing things like learning to read, recognize patterns, understand simple directions, and work with basic math operations.

The one thing interferes with the other objective, basically.

That's why I'm going to say that while figuring out what the challenges ARE is a good thing, it's not necessarily going to point to a workable solution in a 2e child.

SO. A child that needs to spend a great deal MORE time interacting with others and learning to read social cues might well be better off spending that time in a mixed-age cohort of real people doing real things. Librarians, store clerks, etc. etc. Homeschooling is really not socially isolating unless you choose to make it that way.

Maybe "homeschooling" isn't about academics for those children-- at least not directly. Remember, being HG+ buys you a LOT of latitude in academics and formal instructional time. You can afford to pick and choose what seems most important and rest easy (well, okay easier) that the child isn't going to be falling too far behind academically as a result.

One more question for the OP to really think about in very frank terms-


Is school the problem? Or is it something else? Do the problems appear in other domains, or ONLY connected to this one? What is she like during lengthy school breaks? Different? Or the same?

If school is the problem, then that likely speaks to some kind of radically inappropriate placement (for whatever reason).
It's possible that it is because this is the only domain in which her weaknesses (2e, to be clear) are being significantly challenged.

But if you see zero evidence during summer vacation that there is anything at all in the way of "issues" then I'd consider that pretty compelling evidence in favor of homeschooling for now.

The only thing that would sway me is if I were to get a 2e diagnosis that completely made sense (NO loose ends) and had a plan attached to it that was a significant departure from the current placement. (An IEP that seems solid and workable, in other words.)

Absolutely. And mountainmom, I think Mum3 and I both felt from reading your earlier posts that you have possibly got more 2E going on than you have diagnoses for.

In your shoes, I would probably ask the school district to evaluate, but also pursue private diagnostic work in parallel with that, so that you get reliable answers from a private professional that can then be applied to the conversation about appropriate education.

I am not against HSing 2Es, btw, I just don't think it is always the clear right choice. In any case, better to know what you are dealing with in order to consider how to proceed.

DeeDee

Haven't read all the responses yet, I was just contemplating about the possibility of dd being also LD and I really don't think that is it. She is super lazy and it isn't just limited to school work/learning. For instance, she absolutely hates cleaning. If you were to ask her to go get something for you, something as simple as a roll of toilet paper, it's as if you're asking her to climb Mt. Everest. I truly feel it is just her personality. Unless it benefits or interests her she just plain doesn't want to do it.

I think it boils down to her just wanting to stay home and be a kid and play. I can say that the first 2 weeks (prior to yesterday) I did see she had a renewed interest in wanting to do projects/research. She had that idea for the non-fiction books she wanted to share with her teacher, she wanted to do research on Native Americans and write about it. So maybe it just is a mismatch of what she wants out of school and learning vs. what is required and expected of her.

We started her in Kumon math recently for enrichment and she is already 6 months above grade level and moving up levels at a tremendous speed. She was doing double-digit addition problems in her head, completing 100 problems in under 20 minutes. Kumon motivates her b/c she earns tickets, ice cream, parties, trophies, etc... This just doesn't seem to fit the profile of a kid who struggles with math.

Oh-- and choosing to homeschool does not necessarily mean walking away from needed supports and services through the district. They're still obligated by child-find to do evaluations and offer appropriate interventions.

I think this link is relevant to what DeeDee and mum2three were referring to:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10167.aspx

Off to do some reading, and also reading the previous posts. Thank you!

All of these things you've listed would have me *very* strongly suspecting 2e - especially since you're seeing behavioral symptoms such as not wanting to go to school etc. You mention not knowing whether or not her underachievement is on purpose or not - with a significant difference in scores on the WISC and a family history of dyslexia/etc - I'd soooo want to err for now on the side of assuming it's a 2e challenge, and get testing to help better understand what is potentially impacting her academics.


While I agree with HK that homeschooling does provide lots of opportunity for socialization experiences, the kids I've known who struggle with social challenges seem to have had good opportunities within school that they wouldn't have been able to access through homeschooling (unless they were able to qualify for district-provided services, which isn't as easy to do in our area as it is to do when enrolled in one of our neighborhood public schools). It's not that our district isn't following IDEA, but more the situation where children who don't outright qualify for services based on very rigid guidelines sometimes are able to receive those services at school because a teacher sees a need and helps advocate for it and because the sped staff is in place at school. Even things like when a teacher sees a need for a student who isn't placed in sped but just needs to brainstorm a solution to a small issue, they have the sped staff available to bounce ideas around with. When your child is in a b&m school, you also have multiple "eyes" seeing your child, not just your own lens. That can be beyond frustrating, but it can also be helpful to have that outside opinion.

I am also not at all against homeschooling - just see some potential advantages to a b&m school with good resources when a child is having this type of challenge.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Saw this after I posted my initial reply. FWIW, I could have said the very same things about my dysgraphic ds when he was younger and refusing to do homework, refusing to write in class etc. His teacher absolutely thought he was lazy. At home he refused to do very simple chores. He was very slow to move when he had to transition from one thing to the next. I will never forget the fabulous tantrums he used to throw when we told him it was time to put on his coat to go to ski lessons. We always thought he just didn't want to ski! And we were sooo missing what was really going on. All that refusal to do work, all those things that looked like being lazy, all that not wanting to do chores. He wasn't lazy - he has a disability. Not something obvious at all, but something that it took a neuropsych to tease out. In our ds' case, the challenge is "Developmental Coordination Disorder" - and that's what is at the root of his dysgraphia. It impacts him at school in handwriting (dysgraphia) but it also impacts his daily life at home. The tantrums over being asked to put on his coat when he was young were because the motor control required to put on a coat was actually quite difficult for him - but as parents we had *no clue*. And that same challenge was related to much of the other behaviors that looked like lack of motivation or laziness.

Re the success at Kumon - kids with LDs also have strengths - sometimes amazing strengths, especially 2e kids. My ds could *not* tie his shoes until he was in 4th grade (and he also forgot how to tie them later on again), and he can't rely on handwriting at all to show his knowledge - but, based on what I've seen my older dd work on at Kumon, he could have easily aced the same Kumon work your dd has. The key is looking at each academic situation and the skills required is important before drawing conclusions that strength in one specific area means no LD in another, and this means not just intellectual skills, but how is information communicated to your child and how do they have to respond to show their knowledge etc).

LDs are not easy to tease out - I would just really really be cautious that with a family history of LD and the other things you've noted here, it seems like there is good reason to at least look into testing to rule them out - just to be sure.

Best wishes,

polarbear