Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy New here and totally confused after testing

I'm new here and have been trying to meander through forums and threads to see where to begin.

DD (1st grade) had testing/ADHD assessment done this past month privately (referred by our ped) after we had a local committee hearing at her public school denying a 504 for her (since she had no ADHD diagnosis). She had school-based testing (Naglieri) done in June 2007 where she scored in the 99th percentile. So our ped suggested that she might be 2e.

WISC-IV scores from last month were:
FSIQ: 133
Verbal Comprehension Index: 152
Similarities: 19
Vocabulary: 18
Comprehension: 19

Perceptual Reasoning Index: 131
Block Design: 15
Picture Concepts: 12
Matrix Reasoning: 18

Working Memory Index: 107
Digit Span: 9
Letter-Number Sequencing: 14

Processing Speed Index: 100
Digit Symbol-Coding: 10
Symbol Search: 10

And her Achievement scores:
Reading - Std Score: 127 - Percentile: 96
Word Reading - Std Score: 125 - Percentile: 95
- Age Equiv: 8:4 - Grade Equiv: 2:9
Reading Comprehension - Std Score: 123 - Percentile: 94
- Age Equiv: 11:0 - Grade Equiv: 5:6
Pseudoword Decoding - Std Score: 112 - Percentile: 79
- Age Equiv: 8:0 - Grade Equiv: 2:7

Mathematics - Std Score: 121 - Percentile: 92
Numerical Operations - Std Score: 110 - Percentile: 75
- Age Equiv: 7:4 - Grade Equiv: 1:8
Math Reasoning - Std Score: 127 - Percentile: 96
- Age Equiv: 8:4 - Grade Equiv: 3:1

Written Language - Std Score: 106 - Percentile: 66
Spelling - Std Score: 109 - Percentile: 73
- Age Equiv: 7:0 - Grade Equiv: 1:8
Written Expression - Std Score: 104 - Percentile: 61
- Age Equiv: 7:8 - Grade Equiv: 1:8

I have asked several friends about what this all means and I have heard everything from "she's probably not ADHD" to "does she have dyslexia?". I know she really dislikes writing (and has even in Kindergarten) and her K teacher concluded that DD has a tracking problem when reading.

At this point we are trying to squeeze in a 504 hearing before the end of school (June 13) and DH and I will be meeting our pediatrician in June 4 to discuss individual and group therapy as well as medication options. Our ped will not do meds right away because (a) DD isn't even 7 years old yet (not until August) and (b) she wouldn't need meds in the summer anyway.

What do you folks think? How do I make heads or tails out of these results (especially the WMI and PSI results) re: a possible ADHD diagnosis?

Thanks!
Karen

Hi Karen,

Welcome! Wow, she has some really strong scores! I'm not the numbers person, but I'm sure others will pipe in.
So you mentioned your ped, but what about the tester?
Did they say anything about the spread between her highest and lowest score?

Hi Karen,

Welcome! I"m not the numbers person either but wanted to wave hello!

The psychologist gave us a written report with eight recommendations:
1. See our pediatrician address meds for DD's ADHD symptoms
2. Work with the school for a 504 plan for classroom-based accommodations
3. Given her "well above grade level" performance, she should receive GT placement
4. Additional practice with writing and spelling
5. Continue extra-curricular activities for her sense of self-mastery and to develop peer relationships; join a social skills group outside of school [NOTE: she's in a friendship group at school now]
6. Parenting skills training for us due to her oppositional behavior at home
7. Read "Taking Charge of ADHD" by Dr. Russell Barkley
8. Join CHADD (www.chadd.org)

What are the behaviours that make you think ADHD?

She has several strong scores, but that VCI is really very high and I have to wonder if she is just really bored and restless and not ADHD at all.

Have you seen her in a situation where she is really challenged and engaged with something that interests her? Do the ADHD behaviours go away when she cares about what is going on? If the behaviors go away under ideal learning situations, then I would really want to fix the environment, rather than the child!

Also, waving hello. If it makes you feel any better, I'm just as confused by my son's numbers as you are. He's also 6, will be 7 in July. We don't have ADHD issues - we have slow-pokey issues (no meds for that!) Welcome!

She is very distracted in school as well as at home -- and soccer, and dance class, and Brownies, and swim class (etc.) -- you get the idea! She doesn't do as much work in school as her classmates. She doesn't like to pat attention, especially in large groups. If she is in a small group, she does great.

And to be honest, I really don't know if this is ADHD or she is just plain bored. The symptoms are so similar, KWIM? That's part of (my) reluctance to put her on meds.

Thank you (and everyone else!) for the wonderful welcome!

Is the ADHD diagnosis based on these scores? Or reported behavior? Or both?
Was the psychologist one who specializes in gifted?
Do you agree with the ADHD diagnosis?
I think there is a lot of info they have nowadays in regards to addressing behaviors before medicating, so that is good.
There are several on this forum who also have children with ADHD who do have their children take medicine and have been successful with that course. Perhaps they can give you some more guidance.
Definately, GT placement is a given.
That VCI especially is WOW!!!!!!! Scores of 18 and 19 are considered to be topping out, so even that 152 could feasably be an underestimate!

Exciting news and sometimes a little overwhelming, yes?
Good luck with your communications with the school.

No advice on the numbers either but I just wanted to welcome you to the group!

okay, our posts crossed. Yes, it's hard to tell whether the problem is ADHD or bored. Could be both. If the distractability occurs in most situations, not just school, it could be an attentional issue.
It wouldn't be unwise to get a second opinion for the ADHD diagnosis.

Welcome!

I'm with acs. I'd avoid meds until you're SURE this isn't GT boredom. It seems like a much more probable cause given those scores.

Of course, it could be both HG+ and ADHD, but I wouldn't want to treat for ADHD without being 100% sure.

Dottie is our resident score fanatic. If she can't help you, I doubt anyone can!

I just found this article which looks interesting (but I haven't actually read it yet!)

http://borntoexplore.org/gifted.htm

On the left of that page is an ad for: The Edison Trait, saving the spirit of a noncomforming child in a conforming world.
I gotta get my hands on that one!

Thanks for this helpful link! One of my "GT knowledgeable" friends suggested that DD may be visual/spatial.

Karen

DD5 is too! Her handwriting is terrible! She does have trouble paying attention to auditory sequential type learning environment.
We actually brought her in for ADHD testing originally and we were told she does not have ADHD.

Thanks for the welcome and for your reply!

This is all that I have as for descriptions of her work -- on the WISC-IV:

"When administering the Digit Span subtest, N asked the examiner to read the numbers faster, reporting that the numbers 'go in one ear, and then go flopping out into the river.'"

On the WIAT-II, Written Language:

'N occasionally made changes to sentences after writing them, realizing that she forgot parts that she intended to write. She frequently stated, "Sorry my handwriting is so messy." No learning disabilities were revealed."'

I plan to bring these questions up at the 504 plan meeting -- might as well make use of the school psychologists while they are there!

Karen

Thanks for the book reference! I'll add it to my library queue.

Hi OrangeFish,
My son, now 11, also has similar profile. Elementary school was really tough for him. Hard to know if he actually has 'biological ADHD' or if he was trained to not focus due to hours and hours underplaced, or his he doesn have a focus problem at all, only a going along with other people's agenda problem.

Question - does she know how to type?
What does she like to do for fun?
Does she (LOL) hyperfocus?

If you haven't already, please do some afterschooling with her and see where her readiness level is. 19 comprehension scores mean that almost 99.9% of school CAN'T enrich enough no matter what they offer in Gifted Program.

More Later,
Grinity

Grinity, can you please explain what you mean by the above statement?

Thanks,
dazed

Not Grinity, but I believe the point is that such a score is so high (ceilinged out) that it's tough to address in most GT programs. Unfortunately for me I can't home school, so we have to do what we can with after-schooling, which will be a challenge on its own with my work hours. We may also have to consider private school.

Needless to say this is not something I would have thought I'd have to consider at the end of 1st Grade.

Thanks for your feedback and for your expertise/experience.

Yes, she does know how to type. She has typed up her own notes at home for projects she has done at school (science fair, "challenge" presentations, etc.).

For fun she likes to be creative. For the past two hours she has been leading her younger brother (age 4 1/2) in an elaborate "tour of Narnia" throughout the house. (We have been reading CS Lewis and saw Prince Caspian on Saturday. So that is a yes on the hyperfocus question!)

She also loves science/technology and was riveted by the Phoenix landing last night. Getting her head around the concept of a moving Earth and a moving Mars and a moving spacecraft over the last 10 months (the launch was on the day after her 6th birthday) kept her thinking and talking and pondering for a good hour or so.

I guess I'm trying to figure out in practical terms what the various subtests mean. How does a 19 comprehension score affect a child in school? Advanced reasoning skills such that grade level material is not stimulating? Advanced reading skills? DS's psych said "You may not say much, but you certainly have a lot of words in your head." HOw does that affect his every day life in school. I told a teacher friend a couple of conversations I've had with DS about books we were reading together. Her comment to me was "WOW if he can reason like that, no wonder he's bored. He won't get that in school for a long time." Is that what VCI is measuring?

Our psychologist explained to us that the comprehension subtest was "designed to assess verbal reasoning and conceptualization, the ability to evaluate and utilize past experiences, verbal comprehension and expression, and the ability to demonstrate practical information. Also involves knowledge of conventional standards of behavior, social judgment and maturity, and common sense." (I'm quoting from the written report she gave us.) So as for practicality in a school setting, I'm guessing that a child with a 19 knows what the rules are.

I wrote a little story for HoagiesPage -
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/analogies.htm

It's the third one down 'Spread his wings'

When I wrote it, i didn't have a specific for 'what the wings are' - but since then I think that it's the precosious ability to do the stuff on the comprehension test - to reason, to remember and make connections to what you know, and I think that abstract thought, which elementary aged kids aren't supposed to have, according to the training teachers get, has a lot to do with it.

BTW - my son is often judged as socially immature by school observers. He is also judged to be misreading social cues. Sometime he jumped to a wrong conclusion, sometimes he is reading feeling that adults won't admit to themselves. Ditto with 'knowing what the rules are.' My son know what the written rules are and what the unwritten rules are, and can be reluctant to go with my interpretation as he thinks he knows better. So knowing too much might cause behavior problems, particularly when one only has a kid-sized amount of self-control. He can and will rationalize all kinds of stuff, and it all sounds good.

I think that given the Intensity that comes with his Giftedness, he is doing an above average job of 'self-mastery' but compared to other ND children his age ( not to mention his grade,) he appears impuslive and stubborn. He can be challenging- no question, but I don't really think it's ADHD (for now anyway.)

Some times my son and I talk about it, and we say:
For all we know it is ADHD, but ADHD in a kid with this kind of LOG is so different that calling it ADHD might confuse people.

Using the lable to get accomidations may be a comopromise worth making.

Waving Warmly across the CyberAir,
Grinity

Good point!

I loved reading the analogies page, thanks for posting it!

So VCI (not just comprehension) is indicating abstract reasoning? I recall when DS had a speech assessment done at 3.5yrs old. The psych wrote that he already possessed abstract reasoning.

What an amazing description of my daughter as well! ;-)

I'm thinking that the ADHD-combination type diagnosis might be a way to go with the school just to get her accommodations. I have a litany of things that I want to ask the "school professionals" and see what they think about what they may be able to offer. Separately, DH and I will be meeting with our pediatrician next week. I'll run by some of my "the school could do this" ideas by her as well.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
Karen

Ut-Oh! I think I'm in way over my head! I have no idea what the various subtests 'mean' beyond the 'one-line' discriptions. I meant to say that MY kid has amazing abstract reasoning, and that it was really a problem in elementary school, and he had a similar profile, although his working memory is in the plus 1 standard deviation zone, which sure does help.

Glad you liked the analogies - that's much more my line!

Smiles,
Grinity