Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Help, underachievement

Sigh...here we go again. My oldest ds, 10, has had a genuine dislike of school since 2nd grade but it's really ramped up this year. We are year round so are 3 weeks in. Behavior issues have basically been fixed over a few years (stupid stuff but visits to the principal), now it's back to lack of effort. He's not A DYS though scores on Explore in 4th met criteria in science and math and almost in reading, WISCIV is 135, WJ-III ach at 98th percentile for reading, 99th for math.

He is very competitive, sports oriented, very social but hates school..his words. I know he has issues each year acclimating to new teachers and, in general, it works itself out but he is never happy about what they do. Though I've considered homeschool, it really wouldn't suit him as he's so social and has many friends there.

He's getting in trouble for not working to potential, making silly mistakes and reading ahead in their novel rather than paying attention. I know all of this is typical gifted, but HELP! Teacher meeting last week to discuss, I suggested an effort contract which worked last year but haven't seen anything materialize yet. He is currently below grade level in reading b/c he's not putting onto paper what is in his brain, he hates writing, says it takes too long. There are no LDs, just seemingly laziness.

He is recognized as "very strong need" for gifted services, so he's pulled out twice a week each in math and LA. He does not enjoy the pullouts, more enrichment rather than different concepts..ie they have to draw a mailbox for AG math because it will make them "apply measurements".

Ideas for helping him in this environment? We've been warned basically that middle school class placement is mostly determined by his grades in the first two quarters. He's always tested well and gotten good grades before despite disliking it

One other thing, he and his younger brother are more like twins than 2yr apart sibs, they look a lot alike, have similar interests, both play competitive soccer (oldest is better at it) and my youngest is DYS and subject accelerated up a grade in math. Baby brother is very successful in school and likes it, not sure what role that may have in the equation.

I just feel so bad for him and frustrated about the situation, thanks for any suggestions/insights,

Shannon L.

I'm not sure I understand your " of course he dislikes school". I get that just because I liked it doesn't mean he would, but I don't think it's in any way an expected thing to actively dislike school. There are a lot of things for him to learn, in no way is he at a place where he knows it already. He is at a place where he is finally having to learning most of the time and may *gasp* have to study once in a while.

He is looking forward to middle school where all of his friends will go and he will finally have tracked classes by ability, while, yes, there will be more work, it is also different work, more application, etc labs, fun stuff he likes. AG kids can go on a 10 day trip to Europe, he's eager for it and understands he has to be trustworthy and keep his grades up...big picture is a ok, it's the everyday, get to work, remember why you are doing this that is so very hard for him. I feel bad for him not because he has to do well but because he dislikes the process so intently...no one wants their child to hate what they do daily.

Is he determined to go to college? Yes. Is that so far off, he can't really make that connection, you betcha.

He is very competitive, so the idea of being bumped out of AG or not getting into the same classes as his friends is more impactful than the lure of getting to skate by more easily. He had a very memorable experience of being put on a group project with two kids who were way below his academic abilities...that experience (of him doing all the work so the group grade was good) greatly dissuaded him from being stuck in that situation full time in middle school.

He also knows he cannot play soccer if his grades aren't commiserate.

Thx for your input, still hoping to find a chink in his armor to positively influence his aspect on school,

Shannon L.

For what it's worth, our neuropsych has told us that parents using the word "lazy" is a red flag for her for dysgraphia. Given that he "hates writing," I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand.

Are you *sure* he doesn't have some type of challenge that impacts his ability to express himself through writing? What you've written below sounds very much like my dysgraphic ds (who also has an associated expressive language challenge). His challenges don't "look" like obvious challenges when you watch him do school work, but they can easily be misinterpreted as looking like "laziness".


Sorry I'm not much help, but those things would make me wonder. Have you asked him what makes putting his thoughts on paper difficult? What type of "silly mistakes" does he make in school - does it look like he's rushing through things?

Best wishes,

polarbear

It sounds to me like you have a LOT of ways to leverage the behavior that you want out of him.


I'm not sure what you're asking for-- is it to provide leverage to get a spark of internal motivation firing?

I'm not sure that you CAN do that externally.

I'm also going to throw out another idea-- my DD has no particular problems with school... but it can sure feel like an ordeal to all of us. She drags her feet and underperforms with some regularity.

Why?

Because learning makes her feel inadequate and insecure.

That's her perfectionism talking, by the way. I don't suppose that your son found that years K-4 (or so?) were mostly about 'showing what I know' rather than "learning what I don't" by any chance?

My DD had concluded LONG before middle school that school was the place where you "got rewarded for already knowing the answers."

She's never liked writing because it requires effort and the outcome is not so clear-- she prefers things where the outcome is graded. That way she can be "perfect."

{rubs temples} This is NOT NOT NOT a good thing. She hates learning. It makes her feel stupid. She loves knowing because that makes her feel smart.

Honestly, I'd use the leverage that you have with sports eligibility and just keep talking to him (and listening to him) re: his motivational struggles with school.

Make sure that he understands that it IS EXPECTED that he make mistakes, and that this is how you know he is LEARNING. Yes, most kids already know this lesson-- but mine sure didn't by middle school.

Nail on the head, HK. He is a perfectionist, not the kind that does work until it's perfect but the kind that says the work is stupid because it requires a monumental effort to get what is in his head to appear on the paper. He'd rather not, thank you. He also tends towards a bit of anxiety (as do I), so it is likely that fear of failure is playing a role.

I'm positive it's not dysgraphia, he can write, did well up until 2nd grade, pages and pages, he just doesn't enjoy it AT ALL. He's an avid reader just not into creating his own words.

And, yes, I'm looking for the magical solution to inspire his intrinsic motivation as external motivators are only effective short term.

I hadn't thought of the difference in school from his POV, HK. You are correct. He's been hearing how well he knows things for years and now he has to reflect upon it and supply citations in his work, not just know the right answers. Common core is NOT helping us.

We are concentrating on effort, not output. He has said he has so many thoughts in his head that he can't write fast enough. In getting them all down on paper, that one niggling piece that really matters to him gets lost, so he's frustrated, angry and blaming the source, school.

We are coaching him from every direction to increase his ability to handle the unknowns and promote resilience. It's the stream of reports from teachers, forgotten math sheets (but remembered textbook), etc that keep it amped up with little chance to adjust to new, 5th grade expectations. We use Edison's quote of finding 999 ways NOT to build a light bulb to remind him that even failures provide knowledge and learning...unfortunately, taking it to heart is another thing entirely when you really, really believe those were just failures.

Shannon L.

Oh, missed a question...as for the careless mistakes...things like only doing the first part of the problem because he doesn't read it through before starting, assuming the next problem is done in the same way because it "looks" the same without reading the instructions. He speeds through everything, including his food! He is our extroverted, energetic kid...the rest of us are introverts to varying degrees.

Shannon L.

Another angle for you to consider, then, since that rings a bell--

performance-avoidant perfectionism, which is also sometimes called task-avoidant perfectionism--

both are other names for a common manifestation of socially prescribed perfectionism. This is probably the most insidious and difficult to remediate kind of perfectionism, I'm sorry to say.

My DD has this, and honestly, I'm not sure that it is a great idea to emphasize "effort" with a kid like this, either. We tried that, and unfortunately, the problem is that "my best" should be 100% in her reality... ergo, if I didn't earn 100%, others (parents, teachers) will be disappointed, because I didn't "do my best." Look, the evidence is right there in this 90% mark on that test.

The only way around that is to DELIBERATELY self-sabotage by inattentiveness, procrastination, or self-handicapping using some other method. That way, you have a REASON why it wasn't "my best" and it's fine if you earn a C. It can always be 100% in your own mind, if you subtract your handicap like golfers do.

Don't continue to allow him to tie his identity to "A student" or "smart kid" or anything performance oriented. Gently steer him toward a more dynamic self-image. That seems to be the only thing that affects real change in a person with this particular problem.

Also-- side-by-side activities, and let him watch YOU manage failure as a learning exercise. If you need help to do that gracefully, so be it-- it's not a surprise that perfectionism runs in families, right?

I really wish that we'd seen the extreme difficulties that lay ahead of us when DD was 9 and 10 and still in middle school. When they are in high school, the grades matter too darned much for you to let them REALLY fail when it's about motivation/effort and not about mastery/understanding.


ETA: We know that we've made a LOT of progress with my DD because she has finally gained the ability to be happy/proud of her efforts even when they don't yield blue-ribbon grades from the outside world. We emphasize how proud we are of her learning and progress and dedication, and celebrate her pride in her accomplishments and activities.

We IGNORE the cognitive whiplash that she induces by veering wildly between red-lining at the last minute and then, once we've BULLIED her into following through... being pleased and proud of herself. (It's hard to bite one's tongue; aren't you glad I forced you to do that after all? even though you told me you "suck" at this and will never manage to be any good at it? but we manage. Mostly.) We calmly point out that she struggled through... and that it makes her personal victory (over whatever it was) that much SWEETER and more genuine than having a trophy just... handed to her.

Trying things that probably are too hard for them is a good way to "re-set" a perfectionist of this stripe. But you may have to really bully them to participate and stick with it. You are literally going to look like an unrealistic and maybe even borderline abusive parent to others. You'll DEFINITELY seem like a TigerParent. We've done that-- but it's not for the faint of heart parent, nor for the sensitive child-- there is a LOT of high-level conflict involved in that strategy. Perfectionists do not enjoy undertaking things where success is questionable, and even less so when it's not likely under any circumstances.

For example; I'm not giving you a choice about DOING it. Your choice is whether you want to do your best or embarrass yourself by putting in no effort at all.

It sounds really counterintuitive, but I'm a believer now-- doing things that virtually guarantee failure? Breaks that barrier down in their heads so that they have nothing at stake and nothing to lose. It's freeing, and it heals them inside. It lets them experience the very WORST thing-- failure and humiliation (which they fear) and realize that, um... they're kind of scared of the bogeyman. Nothing awful happens, people still like and respect them as much as ever, and you know... they actually did BETTER than they thought they would! (Win, win, win-- right?)

The fact that he has difficulty writing is a red flag to me and I would make sure that it's not a question of his capability. If that isn't an issue, I wouldn't sweat too much about his dislike of school and not working to his potential as long as he doesn't sabotage his placements. Both of my rising 5th graders have "disliked" school since 1st or 2nd grade. My DS has consistently gotten into some minor troubles since 1st grade, but as he has gotten older he has learned what he can get away with and just really irritate his teachers occasionally but not enough to be labelled one of the problem boys. He is also good at controlling the quality of his work to achieve maximum results with minimum efforts. I let that go as long as he doesn't hate learning per se, which can be and should be nurtured outside of school. By that I don't mean afterschooling, which we don't do, but simply providing the opportunities and resources for him to discover new knowledge and skills on his own.

Thx all, HK, yes..I do see task avoidance in him and myself, but mostly just on school. I can't tell if he really is over the top confident or if it's a front in things like sports because he dives right in, usually does either ok or great. He's happy if it was fun...that seems to be his criteria for everything. We've deliberately tried to set him up with things he has to work at, like guitar lessons HE asked for, to aid in perseverance. Too hard, gave up after 3 months...yes, I let him, I wasn't going to drop $200/month for him not to practice. He paid for 1/2 of his guitar so I know he really wanted to try it..keeping it just in case the desire returns as he ages.

He makes these Rainbow rubber band bracelets with singleminded concentration. At first, he was so frustrated, he cried and said he was too dumb to figure it out. Shortly after, he found YouTube tutorials and was at it again. Multiple bumps in the road, but he's doing really complex bracelets now and wanting to figure out a way to sell them or teach a class to kids on making them..so progress.

I know he CAN focus and try harder, transferring it to school is something else. Trying to figure WHAT will engage him..obviously, some sort of movement seems to help.

I did read somewhere recently about not asking your kids to do their best all the time, but to do enough saving their best and that level of effort for the really important things. I'm attempting to convey that currently.

I just looked up dysgraphia again after all the comments, he has none of the symptoms I can find online. He can write with speed and ease if he knows what he wants to say. I typically have him stop writing and verbalize what he means first, that seems to help a great deal. I guess he has a hard time composing a sentence structurally at the same time he is writing it down. It is usually when he's starting, the flow gets better as he continues. For example, he put off starting a bio paper on Alexander the Great though he'd done his research and had lots of organized notes. He went outside and came in 10 min later with a full page written. He ended up only tweaking what he wrote before turning it in for an A. He is also a very intuitive speller, he rarely misspells anything. If I'm still missing something that his full psych eval at age 8 would have missed, pls let me know.

Shannon L.