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Gone

Just wondering if they let your DD know the limits ahead of time (I guess that would include time limits, and limits on what activities are permitted?). With our DD, when she was younger, as long as you spelled out the rules ahead of time and the consequences if she broke them (so that she could choose to follow the rules or not) and then followed through promptly but fairly (i.e., with the consequence that was set out), things worked pretty well. When this did not happen (when the rules were not clear, or the consequences unforeseen), she often reacted badly. Could that be happening with your DD?

Good luck!

A behavior therapist would tell you that yes, rewarding undesirable behavior will definitely get you more of that behavior behavior. So letting her get out of the class is a problem, since she's using the bad behavior to get what she wants.

You need to set it up so that being there is more rewarding for her than not being there, and so that "breaks" are on the teacher's schedule, not hers. Find her currency and use it. It's OK to schedule in extra breaks for a kid who needs it, but certainly not if she demands the break by threatening people.

Does she have an IEP going into the public kindergarten? Setting up a situation like this for success usually takes extra manpower (e.g. a special ed teacher or aide who's there to dole out appropriate prompts, rewards, and consequences so that the classroom teacher isn't tied up dealing only with one kid's behavior).

HTH,
DeeDee

Good grief. Are these BCBA (board-certified) behavior therapists? Forgive my skepticism.

Time to sit down with them for a good chat, at a time when DD's not around and you can focus on the problem at hand.

DeeDee

moomin - is this in any way related to the introduction of the glasses? Did it start after the glasses, or worsen after the glasses were added? could she still be working out how to function in a seemingly different world?

But really my first response was - she's smarter than her teachers and knows it and is working them...

I had to re-read your post a few times with regard to the teacher and neuropsych saying that it would be detrimental to remove her from the class, I was thinking "Huh? THEY are the ones doing the removing!" then realised you are considering not sending her to this preschool/class at all and they think THAT would be detrimental? I can't see how, if they think rewarding her bad behaviour with exactly what she wants, that these teachers can possibly know what is best for your child?

Could some of the opposition be related to her anticipation of the transition towards primary? Appreciation of moving on can be very freeing, and she's earned her graduation already. Also, could she be responding to a summer schedule with lesser structure or intellectually stimulating enrichment, or the heat? I agree she's wrapped them for now (part of me is inclined to pat her on the back for manipulating her environment "successfully"), and that it may be a good time for a couple of chats - one with her teachers and one with her. Good thoughts with her for kindergarten. -Jenna

oh, this rings a bell... our kid never acted out in class - she "worked" her teachers in another way (blending in) - but we definitely saw this kind of aggressiveness at home. it took a while to figure out where it was coming from, but it turned out she was exhausted by trying to maintain her mood all day long in an environment that was so toxic for her, and she just let it rip once she got home. she absolutely saw her teachers as stupid/not trustworthy and she was completely able to articulate that - once i learned to ask questions that were open-ended enough!

so i guess what i'm saying is good for you for looking into it - a prolonged behavioural change really does warrant an investigation... it may just be a simple transition issue, or a specific peer issue, or maybe something to do with your DD having a longer attention-span than her age-peers - or something deeper.

i wonder - what does your daughter say about the class/what's happening?

Moomin, I'm so sorry to hear your dd is still struggling - and I agree with the others - if she feels she's being rewarded by being removed from the classroom, it's not going to help resolve the behavior issues. I do wonder though if perhaps the teachers feel they have to remove her? while it's not the best solution for yr dd, if she's hitting and kicking the teacher has to do something to separate her from the other students in that moment so they aren't injured.

I'm curious why the neuropsych and teacher feel its important for her to remain in the class - Im guessing if it's led by behavioral-trained teachers there are possibly behavior goals? Is thy part of the kindergarten prep? Does she have an IEP in place now or set up for Kindergarten in the fall? I would worry less about what is happening in this classroom for the next three weeks and focus on making sure that she has appropriate accommodations and support in place for the fall and kindergarten.

Best Wishes,

polarbear

Well, in some respects, she has developed some exceptional coping skills.

It's just that they revolve around manipulating the situation so that it better aligns with what she wants-- rather than coping with what she doesn't. On the bright side, she has really learned a lot and is being much more proactive about her circumstances. Er-- well, sort of good news, anyway.

It's unfortunate that the adults in charge there can't see past the surface to consider what you've tried to point out.

My daughter did this off and on throughout kindergarten-- act aggressive to get sent to the principal's office, where she would draw and hobnob with other, mostly older, "maladaptives" (haha) who she started to really like. But I understood them having to send her out, like polarbear said, its about the safety and perception of safety and perception of punishment, to the kids being threatened and hit (in my daughter's case- she was hitting).I totally get that. Over time, it backfired because my daughter started noticing that her peers (the ones in her class) disliked her, were alienating her, because of her behaviors. She started to care, and that changed the way she acted (sometimes!). Even if your daughter has disdain for the kids in her class, she may not want to be identified as the kid who keeps getting kicked out for being out of control and bully-ish.

Or, she may decide she doesn't give a fig and keep it up. DS got in trouble frequently this past year; he quickly learned that if he started talking, wandering around the room, and being disruptive, the teacher would eventually send him to the principal's office. There, he would often get one-on-one attention from someone he respected a lot more. Yes, the other kids talked about him, but the drudgery of being in class far outweighed any negative social aspects of being "the bad kid."

My son embraced being the "bad kid" in preschool. Fortunately when he turned five he was in a new class with a new teacher and he decided to change his ways.

He referred to his new self as "HisName 5.0". Odd but cute.

He now refers to his time as the "bad kid" like a thirty year old looking back on their wild college years.

My pg ds 7.5 did more passive aggressive behavior at 5 yrs old in pre-k in a private gifted school. He would keep writing his name over and over again, pretend not to hear the teacher's instructions, write his own sick note, or tell the teacher that he didn't need her to learn. When the headmaster refused to deal with ds's behaviors or his rapid acceleration, we had to withdraw. I don't think ds wanted to be spotlighted any more than your dd does now, but he wanted OUT and he would resort to any method to do so. Ds did not see the others in the classroom as his peers. Not sure if your dd does....might be a question to ask.

Ds is being homeschooled now. He still tries to manipulate the situation and want total control over his environment. I recently read The Defiant Child to create a better warning system and others to get a better way to motivate ds to do things (ie. water therapy exercises) which he doesn't want to do. I'm not saying it's a magic cure, but there are feedback loops to use and ways to manage behavior which might work.

Ds was in integrated pre-school programs previous to the private gifted schools, but then he only started vision therapy then. Oy. Makes my head hurt thinking about it and hearing what you're going through.

For kids like this-- I really encourage parents to read The Manipulative Child. Oh my, the things that my DD was capable of at this age are almost mind-boggling. But she really was doing them in an effort to avoid something that seemed (to her 4-7yo mind) "worse" than the 'punishment' any adult could devise.

It really changed how I interacted with her to read that book and recognize when she was towing me in, inch-by-inch. I was playing right into her hands. :sigh:

Ugh. I'm so sorry, moomin. I think that you already plan to, but please trust your gut here.

1. Seriously?? Isn't she just using a more sophisticated method of avoidance, when you get right down to it?? How do they not see that?

2. Whoah. It's hard for me to even process this.

3. Well, sure. Of course. I fail to see what use this opinion is under the circumstances, however.

4. Really? Well, then what is behind this?? Oh, nevermind. Clearly this is someone who doesn't really want to go where the evidence is leading.

I see little harm in attempting a full Eval for an IEP-- that doesn't obligate you to pursue enrollment if you are ultimately unhappy with the placement options available, but it might be a route to any services on an a la carte basis if you opt to homeschool. It's also true that you should gain access to professionals who have NOT seen your DD yet if you go that route. Clearly the ones that she has seen don't know what to make of her, so maybe that will give you traction. Maybe.

I can also see the point that homeschooling is effectively the same solution that your DD is implementing on a daily basis within the current setting, at least in some ways.

For that reason, I think that it might be wise to consider whether or not homeschooling is the best choice PRIOR to actually sending her into the classroom environment. That way it isn't her solution-- it's yours. The educator side of things may see little difference there, but if you're right about her manipulation of the situation, I think that there is a HUGE difference between "my parents opted for homeschooling" and "I was a problem in school and so now I'm homeschooled."

What does your DD say-- to you, privately-- about her behavior?

Is she empathetic towards her classmates (who are in the line of fire, so to speak)?

It really does seem like homeschool might be the only viable solution at this point-- and probably less negative than pulling her OUT to do so after she 'fails' to adapt to the placement options available. At least if you preempt the decision, it's nominally an adult decision, and not one that she's forced in a power struggle that most people don't even see that they're having with her.

Moomin, your situation seems similar to mine... my DD is now 7, and things are MUCH, MUCH better now, but age 5 was the WORST, and I would never want to live through that again. I read your previous post w/ your daughter's profile:

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ting_with_local_public_p.html#Post140937

"She hit the ceiling on three subtests, and her tester believed she could easily go higher on the SB-LM. She reads (chapter books) and writes fluently in English, Spanish, and French (she particularly loves the Rainbow Fairies books in Spanish). She loves reading picture books on math, geography, and science, and generally seems to want to learn everything she possibly can."

Based on that profile (which sounds somewhat similar DD), and the fact that she's not eager to be a teacher pleaser and fit in with the other children (also similar to my DD), kindergarten -IMHO- is going to be like putting a round peg in a square hole. Painful for everyone!!!!!

We suffered through kindergarten, but midway through the year, they decided to move her to the combined 1st-3rd grade class (Montessori charter school), where she did much better, but still needed a lot of support due to her emotional immaturity/volatility. They only had a full day option, which was too much for her at age 5. I volunteered every afternoon as her 'teacher's aide'. The next year, she stayed in the same class and qualified for special ed (the teachers thought she's autistic, but doctor after doctor has said that she's not, so she qualified based on ADHD - which the teachers DON'T think she has!LOL!). But because she got into special ed, she was allowed to spend about three hours per day in the resource room where it's much quieter and has fewer kids (which she loves). By the end of the year, she could spend the whole day in her regular classroom without any problems, and she even started to form some warm relationships with the other kids.
Looking back at where we were 2 years ago, she should never have gone to kindergarten. We even had a note from a developmental pediatrician saying that kindergarten was "more likely to be frustrating than profitable" for her and that "she should not spend the majority of her day with children who are much younger than her cognitively." Of course, schools are against acceleration, particularly for a non-compliant and emotionally immature child, so we just had to suffer through...

... but looking back, it would have been ideal for her at age 5 to be placed in 2nd grade, half-day with a full-time aide.
Since it's extremely unlikely that a school would agree to that, homeschooling would also have been a better option than what we went through.

This sounded so familiar to me:
"Here's the problem. I'm not sure that the evidence is "leading" anywhere. The response that the FIVE psychologists/neuropsychs who have worked with DD give is basically, "We don't get it, she seems totally normal and in control... then at school she just isn't AT ALL... then she is again." And her maladaptive behavior takes SO MANY random forms. And none of it adds up to anything."

It sounds like giftedness and asynchronous development to me! It's not easy! But it my case, it's getting better as my daughter matures, learns more and more self-control, and internalizes the values and virtures that we're working hard to teach her.

I think "perceived slight" is key. It still seems quite unlikely to me that this is giftedness alone, seems more like 2E to me.

Yes, the boy was irritating, but he has also clearly learned that your DD reliably offers the opportunity for a big entertaining blowup.

Girls with Asperger's are often missed even by skilled practitioners, FWIW. YMMV, naturally.


And really very Aspergerish IMO. I'm still wondering here, despite what your practitioners are saying.


A strong sense of justice/injustice (sometimes a mis-tuned strong sense...) is also a feature of some gifted/autistic types. I would distinguish that from empathy.


My DS (2E/Asperger's) was like this at your DD's age.

We are people who chose to keep our kid in school and work out the aggression/escape behaviors. It has been one ton of effort, but we still think it was the better choice. DS has learned to function and really contribute in a classroom setting. He's now happy we made him learn how to do this.

What was required to get him to this point:
--bringing in our private BCBA to all IEP and other school meetings, and having that person design a behavior intervention plan for school that would teach the correct behavior (while keeping others safe, of course)

--special ed support, many hours per week, to reinforce desired behavior and catch misbehavior before it spiraled out of control. Ideally, this person catches the thinking mistake that *becomes* a behavior problem, teaches the child to identify it as a thinking mistake and reframe it, so that the behavior doesn't happen. This is a multi-year learning process.

--appropriate academic placement to minimize boredom and maximize participation

Note that an IEP does not necessarily require the medical diagnosis (though the diagnosis can help the school team understand what's going on); it requires the team to identify needs that make it impossible for the child to receive a free appropriate public education (FAPE) without accommodations/ services.

It seems reasonably clear to me that your DD is not going to get FAPE without an IEP. I wouldn't really want her in school without a serious plan in place for her to learn the correct ways of "doing school." Yet if you can get the right supports into place, school may be the place to learn those skills; they are harder to master at home, where she has so much more control over the environment.

HTH,
DeeDee

You're unlikely to get a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome, as it's been removed from the list of official diagnoses. In Kindergarten we were told that my daughter was not eligible for an IEP because she was several grade levels ahead in all subjects. But the next year, there was a new special ed teacher at the school who swore that my daughter was just like her now grown-up son who has Asperger's. So, she advocated for DD to have tons of assessments through the IEP process, and then she was shocked when the final report came back: "Although the diagnosis of autistic disorder was considered as another possible special education designation, behavioral observations and collateral data were not consistent to this diagnosis." My DD qualified under the "other health impaired" because in March of her kindergarten year we got a diagnosis of ADHD privately. The same doctor had seen her 9 months previously and at that time she did not give any diagnosis. An ADHD diagnosis is not hard to get (based on impulse control and difficulty shifting to non-preferred activities), and may help qualify you for services. I don't think it would be appropriate for her to be full time in a special ed class, but there are other services -- like sensory breaks, social skills group, OT, resource room pull out, behavioral support team, etc that might help.

I don't deny that it's not 2E... only that the current classification scheme of psychological/neurological disorders is inadequate to explain some kids like these... I find that asynchronous development is a better framework for my own understanding of her challenges...and also I live everyday believing that my daughter is outgrowing these problems and does not have a lifelong neurological impairment.

I strongly agree with DeeDee on three points:
1. I'd rather have my daughter remain in school to be part of the community, to learn how to adapt, to build quality friendships...
2. Special ed support has been invaluable... the special ed teacher and resource room have been wonderful, and we were able to come up with a behavioral plan and metacognitive strategies that worked for her.
3."Appropriate academic placement" is essential. My daughter gets lessons with the older kids and independent work that's several grade levels ahead. It's not as good as what we would do at home, but it's worth it for the other benefits of keeping her in school. I strongly believe that without appropriate academics, all the IEP and behavioral support in the world would not have made the situation bearable for anyone.

I think it would be great to get an IEP if possible, but the success depends on having the good teachers and support team that really care about the child. We were very lucky in this regard this past school year.

moomin, I am so sorry your dd is continuing to struggle - I know how tough it is to feel caught without a good solution in any direction, which it must feel like right now. I will second everything in DeeDee's post - I also doubt this is simply as easy as "she's gifted". If it was me, I'd also leave her in school - I may be way offbase here and I'm looking at this from the very limited perspective of what you've posted here, but from what you've written in this and previous posts, she seems to be having an unusually tough time socially. It's easy on the one hand to dismiss it by saying it only happens at school - but look at what school *is* at this age - that's the outside world. If you take her out of school to avoid the challenge, you also avoid the opportunity to help her learn how to cope with the challenge. And if you can help your dd work through these challenges now, in the early years of elementary school, she'll be much more able to take advantage of opportunities that open up in middle school and beyond - because that is where the opportunities for gifted students in most school districts really open up and there's a lot more to be excited about and want to take advantage of.

It's not easy being the parent of a 2e child in the early elementary years. When our kids are really young and at home with us their intellectual gifts are usually what we see, and the other pieces of the 2e may or may not appear, and if we see them we often see them as quirks and nothing more. Then our kids get out into the "real world" (aka school) and they are challenged in ways they don't experience at home - whether it's academics or social or environmental or whatever - and their world starts falling apart. Understanding what's up is usually much more difficult than looking up a set of symptoms and yep, there's your diagnosis - it can take years of observing, testing, talking to teachers etc. As dismal as that all may sound - it's also a time, though, where you can see tremendous progress once you have an idea of how to help your child - because it's much easier to start working through issues with our children when they are young than it's going to be to take her out of the situation completely, hope it resolves on it's own, come back in 3-4 years hoping to re-enter school (or whatever) and finding out that the challenge is still there, and now suddenly your dd is 4-6 years older and much less compliant re working with and communicating with you.

Sorry I got a bit long-winded and am not sure that made sense! Please know I am hoping you'll be able to find some truly help soon. And fwiw, I'd move forward with the IEP even though you may be worried about how the school will use it.

Best wishes,

polarbear

eta - one other thought for you - perhaps your dd isn't on the autism spectrum - that doesn't mean she wouldn't potentially benefit from some of the behavioral approaches used for children who are on the ASD spectrum. My ds is not on the spectrum, but has Developmental Coordination Disorder - two very different diagnoses, yet they share some very common challenges too, and many of the very helpful ideas that I've tried with ds have come from reading of the experiences of parenting ASD kids. His speech therapist has also used strategies with him that she uses with ASD kids she works with. So while a diagnosis might not be there (yet, or maybe ever), there still may be some very worthwhile ideas to try simply by isolating specific behaviors that you want to work on to help your dd and then look for ways others have approached the problem.

A couple of things, quickly:

to Jeimey: the "Asperger's" designation is not in the new DSM, true-- but it's folded into the diagnosis of "autism," not gone. Many docs are using DSMIV and DSMV in conjunction for a while to make sure they do not miss anyone who should properly be diagnosed.

And to Moomin: good behaviorism is individually tailored. If she's not responding to this program, they should be taking data (please tell me someone is taking data) and making serious adjustments. If they are not doing that, IMO they're not doing what needs to be done.

DeeDee

I usually sit and nod through everything DeeDee says, and also PolarBear, but oddly this time I find myself in the opposite corner. I have a girl with Aspergers, it was excruciatingly difficult to get her diagnosed and happened only because I drove the process (and read and researched myself half to death). I get EXACTLY how hard it is to peg Aspergers in a gifted girl. But I am just not convinced you are looking at Aspergers/ASD. You certainly COULD be dealing with ASD, but I am not convinced. I also usually fall on the side of dealing with social problems by tackling them (ie keep the child at school). But this time I agree with HowlerKarma. I would be pulling her out while it is YOUR choice and not let her drive you to it.


It really seems like if you possibly can taking a break from environments that aren't working, it might be a good idea to try getting on a more even keel and then hopefully trying again when she is more mature and possibly you are more in control (as compared to therapists or teachers that she can run rings around).

I do think long term getting into a school environment is a good idea, but you are talking about a child who is radically advanced, even in the context of this board, and one who is at the age when being that advanced is MOST difficult in a traditional school environment (the first years of school suck for almost all gifted kids) and she's responding to that frustration in a manner that is atypical of her gender.

In general terms it's more common for HG+ girls to blend and for the kids that JUST.CAN'T.STAND the miss-match and act out hyperactively/violently to be boys. She's acting like a boy with ZERO tolerance for a radically miss-matched environment (and yes I know Aspie children can be less obviously gendered, or cross over their gendered behaviours). My question is, how would everyone's responses differ if she were a boy? Would she be more likely to be labelled ADHD? Would she be more likely to get the ASD label if she behaved EXACTLY the same or would they still say no ASD? Would it be easier for people to say "It's just SO HARD for 4yr old boys to tolerate being bored out of their minds, they're too busy and active to sit through abject boredom..." or "Its just so hard for 4yr old boys to realise that they are the smartest person in the room and not know how to deal with their feelings of being unsafe and out of control because at 4 they should not be the one who's 'in control'"?

Since home schooling appears to be an option in your case why not take advantage of this and home school for a few years at least. I can see no advantage in her spending a few more years manipulating everybody. I also question based on my experience whether putting a child in environment that is highly stressful for them day after day without their consent is the best way to teach them to deal with that environment in a healthy manner.

Moomin, I hear you. This is really hard.

Do you have a private psychologist? (who does the CBT?) In your shoes I would get whoever has the best professional handle on your DD's situation and have a long talk with that person about what you are seeing, and what educational placements would allow the development of coping skills/behavior improvement.

I can see that regular kindergarten will be more of the same unless you can get it set up in a truly different way, and HK's and Mum3's comments make sense to me. I just suspect that your DD will take command of the homeschooling situation and make it what she wants it to be (and therefore not have to work on the difficult skills she needs) unless you set it up *really* carefully.

Have you considered medicating for the anxiety? Some people won't consider it for a child, I know, but for our DS it made a world of difference in his ability to learn to cope. He still had to work to manage his anxiety, but it went from un-doable to doable.

DeeDee

DeeDee - part of the reason I think homeschooling might work is that I seem to recall moomin saying that they (and their Mom??) are the only two people that the child DOESN'T pull this stuff with and doesn't get away with it. I got the impression that with Moomin (and grandma?) that she can finally BE the child and let the adult BE the adult and function in a more normative way which has got to be a huge balm for her anxiety and provides a chance to actually GET the social instruction/experience she needs. It's also clear from the posts above that moomin is the one MOST likely to call her on her behaviour, push for the true cause of a the scenario and NOT tolerate it. The teachers and therapists seem to get that this is a one of a kind scenario and that they have no idea what to do. I just don't see how a bunch of people who have no idea how to deal with this have a better hope of shepherding this little girl to a point where she CAN "tolerate fools gladly" and can socialise normally. Clearly these skills must be developed but I am thinking that a combination of time out to reset and having a truly trusted adult in charge is the (least worst) solution (for right now).

Also I guess I come from a place where we KNOW that our DD has issues that we don't feel confident to deal with alone and yet again and again and again when we try to get professional help there just ISN'T any. We have a core group of professionals who we like, trust and respect, they are the best our city has to offer. They can see her problems are real but all basically agree that she's too high functioning for what they can offer and they are at a loss ("Yes she needs social skills training, but you MUST NOT put her into any of the social skills groups we have available, she will get nothing and might be harmed" "Yes she has a receptive language problem, but she's so perfect 1:1 this needs to be addressed in a group - oh but there isn't one"). Increasingly I am having to accept that I am the only expert on my child and I have to do the absolute best I can and "the best I can offer" generally does not involve the therapies or scenarios that one might naturally assume would be useful. And my child is not even REMOTELY PG. She's MG on a good day, not even that on a bad day...

Hi,

Her K readiness class sounds like a fishbowl with 6 goldfish and 3 greedy piranhas. I don't see how that ratio or their goals mimic a K environment at all. A K teacher may well be focused on enough other things they basically ignore minor infractions like an otherwise smart girl who makes faces or attempts to startle another child (unless it becomes a real pattern).

Having been asked for an opinion, I would say take her out and spend the next 3 weeks trying to convince her she is as wonderful as she always was, that she is not the behavior problem people have been telling her she is. Separate her from her occasional behaviors. Yes those particular moments were bad choices but she is basically a very well behaved kid. She is capable of showing excellent behavior so just expect she will in the future. For the moment keep her with people with whom she does well. Let her breathe for a few weeks and have a chance to enter K without having just practiced being mean to kids.

DS would get out of the pre-K we later pulled him from and I would ask him how it went and he would refuse to talk. He is very excitable and even more impatient and he got in trouble for things like talking over the teacher or not sitting criss cross apple sauce. I would say, "Did you poke anyone's eyes out?" He would say no. I would say, "Well they must have at least called an ambulance". He would say no. "Did you take a chair and beat the teacher with it?" Etc. And finally he would laugh and I would say that it sounded like he did great, and hand him his juice box and we would go do something more fun.

I encourage you to take this humorous take on it with your DD, for the beginning of K. Be on her side. And I encourage you to see it more humorously yourself -- she is 5 and there is a reason worldwide structured schooling starts around 6. Yes most girls are probably ready at 4 but not every single one. Few 10 year olds yell at others for not playing house the right way. So somewhere in there they grow up a little. Yes behavior experts disagree with me but they are basing their opinions on an average, on the general population, and what you have is so very far from the general population, she is a very bright girl capable of great insight and frustrated with all sorts of things that are beyond her control. Thinking far more thoughts per minute than most of the experts.

Tell her you agree the child didn't understand how to play house properly and you can imagine you might have yelled at them too if you were in her shoes. Or that it does sound unfair the other child wanted the scissors or that they wouldn't take her suggestion even though it does sound brilliant. Only in the barest way condone the teacher's response. Make it so that unless someone really did get seriously injured that you don't think she did much wrong. Set the bar very low. Draw the line at actual injurious physical aggression.

Otherwise, just acknowledge that yes that was probably something that would be upsetting to a teacher, in a matter of fact neutral way. There is a real difference between what is acceptable to a parent and what is acceptable to a random assortment of teachers. Don't attempt to have premonitions about what would set off her new K teacher. Do you personally care if she disrupted the class from counting pennies when they've been counting pennies every day for the whole year? No, deep down not really. So don't say you do. It's a real learning curve about what upsets a teacher, they are really all different and each classroom is different. So make sure she is clear what is okay with you and what is not, and set that bar so low that she has very little trouble jumping over it.

I think our job is not to toe the party line. Our job is to think long term and raise a child that will always tell us the truth about what happened at school that day. The teacher doesn't deeply care if she tells you the truth or how their comments affect your whole family's weekend. They care that they felt a bit scared when they saw her holding up scissors and snarling at another child. Our job is to nod to the teacher and say oh how upsetting in a empathetic voice, and then go home and tell our child that it sounds like they had a frustrating day but that it's great no one was injured, feed them a cookie and go to bed, get up and encourage them to use their words that day or maybe not play house if it is something that ends up upsetting them. If it feels like a run on sentence it is.

And then over time we try to give them general principles, maybe role play or talk about how to express themselves in a more mature way. Maybe with words, for example. The "Man she really did that with the doll? That makes no sense!" "Lets brainstorm and think how to respond next time so you don't get in trouble for yelling again. What else could you have done?" is a tried and true tactic. I'm sure you have and wonder why it hasn't worked yet and it has nothing to do with you, it almost certainly is that your DD is wired to react without thinking too deeply about it. That being the executive control part.

We can compliment them on the times they do act mature. We can brag about them with them in earshot about specific things they did that show us they can act mature because that is a way bigger compliment than just to their face. We can try to avoid them being in a setting with unfair expectations (if they have poor self control then that's a different setting than if they have good self control).

For my DS6 public K did not appear to be a good option. We kept him in his preschool which had a K, they were a playbased preschool that called his intensity "passion", they were wonderful with him and expected very little but by and by a little more, and he did very well there. I am so thankful it existed and that we happened to find it. If it had been a worse fit then K probably would have looked like a better option, but he was happy at the preschool so we thought it a safer bet for him to stay.

At about 5.5 I thought there might be some chance that some day in his teens maybe he would get to go to a regular school. Right around when he turned 6 I started to think it would go okay if only he'd get the perfect teacher. And now at 6 and some months I think most any teacher next year in public 1st grade will actually tolerate him. As much as I would like to compliment his preschool teachers I think it was more just time that's made him more ready for a large group type setting.

We really liked Transforming the Difficult Child workbook that Grinity suggested. We implemented mainly the part where you compliment the child on all the mundane things one usually takes for granted. Closing the door when they come in, taking off their shoes where they are supposed to. It's endless, the rules we want kids to follow and most do almost all of it. It really helped us see how obedient DS actually was trying to be. And then the other part of the book we put into practice was a long list of specific expectations and clear rules. Lots of no this and no that under headings like "respect for others" and "everyone helps". We use time outs occasionally but more just remind him when he breaks a rule. He's a good kid who has lot of frustrations and an immense ability to escalate his energy level in seconds.

I felt like by getting DS more on our side, or put another way by making him feel like we had complete faith in him through relentlessly complimenting things he had forgotten he chose to do, that he opened himself up more to working on things that are hard for him. He had been very oppositional with most everyone but is barely so at this point.

Moomin, it does seem like a common attitude here too that it's "better" for kids to have lots of friends in the lower grades, rather than one particular friend, but none of my kids' friends have actively prevented close friendships (that I am aware of). Maybe that is something for the IEP? That she not be forced into a broad social group until she indicates readiness?

At my sons school you can request they be placed with a specific friend for the next year (or away from a particular person) but it is not guaranteed. They like children to have someone they work well with in the class. If 2 kids were playing with each other to the exclusion of all others someone may gently intervene i guess. But we are in NZ not US.

For what it's worth, which may not be much, we have started treating our anxious, depressed, seems sort of ADHD/Aspie/sensory (but also does NOT check off a LOT of those boxes) 9yo DD with Rhodiola this summer, following a tip here. It's an herb, a so-called adaptagen, with quite a few studies showing efficacy in treating depression and anxiety. Though I would not say it is a wonder drug, we have seen noticeable and real improvement. It is possible that this is due to it being summer and DD being out of school, but last summer was quite bad. I'm just throwing this out there.