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Or, she may decide she doesn't give a fig and keep it up. DS got in trouble frequently this past year; he quickly learned that if he started talking, wandering around the room, and being disruptive, the teacher would eventually send him to the principal's office. There, he would often get one-on-one attention from someone he respected a lot more. Yes, the other kids talked about him, but the drudgery of being in class far outweighed any negative social aspects of being "the bad kid."

My son embraced being the "bad kid" in preschool. Fortunately when he turned five he was in a new class with a new teacher and he decided to change his ways.

He referred to his new self as "HisName 5.0". Odd but cute.

He now refers to his time as the "bad kid" like a thirty year old looking back on their wild college years.

My pg ds 7.5 did more passive aggressive behavior at 5 yrs old in pre-k in a private gifted school. He would keep writing his name over and over again, pretend not to hear the teacher's instructions, write his own sick note, or tell the teacher that he didn't need her to learn. When the headmaster refused to deal with ds's behaviors or his rapid acceleration, we had to withdraw. I don't think ds wanted to be spotlighted any more than your dd does now, but he wanted OUT and he would resort to any method to do so. Ds did not see the others in the classroom as his peers. Not sure if your dd does....might be a question to ask.

Ds is being homeschooled now. He still tries to manipulate the situation and want total control over his environment. I recently read The Defiant Child to create a better warning system and others to get a better way to motivate ds to do things (ie. water therapy exercises) which he doesn't want to do. I'm not saying it's a magic cure, but there are feedback loops to use and ways to manage behavior which might work.

Ds was in integrated pre-school programs previous to the private gifted schools, but then he only started vision therapy then. Oy. Makes my head hurt thinking about it and hearing what you're going through.

For kids like this-- I really encourage parents to read The Manipulative Child. Oh my, the things that my DD was capable of at this age are almost mind-boggling. But she really was doing them in an effort to avoid something that seemed (to her 4-7yo mind) "worse" than the 'punishment' any adult could devise.

It really changed how I interacted with her to read that book and recognize when she was towing me in, inch-by-inch. I was playing right into her hands. :sigh:

Ugh. I'm so sorry, moomin. I think that you already plan to, but please trust your gut here.

1. Seriously?? Isn't she just using a more sophisticated method of avoidance, when you get right down to it?? How do they not see that?

2. Whoah. It's hard for me to even process this.

3. Well, sure. Of course. I fail to see what use this opinion is under the circumstances, however.

4. Really? Well, then what is behind this?? Oh, nevermind. Clearly this is someone who doesn't really want to go where the evidence is leading.

I see little harm in attempting a full Eval for an IEP-- that doesn't obligate you to pursue enrollment if you are ultimately unhappy with the placement options available, but it might be a route to any services on an a la carte basis if you opt to homeschool. It's also true that you should gain access to professionals who have NOT seen your DD yet if you go that route. Clearly the ones that she has seen don't know what to make of her, so maybe that will give you traction. Maybe.

I can also see the point that homeschooling is effectively the same solution that your DD is implementing on a daily basis within the current setting, at least in some ways.

For that reason, I think that it might be wise to consider whether or not homeschooling is the best choice PRIOR to actually sending her into the classroom environment. That way it isn't her solution-- it's yours. The educator side of things may see little difference there, but if you're right about her manipulation of the situation, I think that there is a HUGE difference between "my parents opted for homeschooling" and "I was a problem in school and so now I'm homeschooled."

What does your DD say-- to you, privately-- about her behavior?

Is she empathetic towards her classmates (who are in the line of fire, so to speak)?

It really does seem like homeschool might be the only viable solution at this point-- and probably less negative than pulling her OUT to do so after she 'fails' to adapt to the placement options available. At least if you preempt the decision, it's nominally an adult decision, and not one that she's forced in a power struggle that most people don't even see that they're having with her.

Moomin, your situation seems similar to mine... my DD is now 7, and things are MUCH, MUCH better now, but age 5 was the WORST, and I would never want to live through that again. I read your previous post w/ your daughter's profile:

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ting_with_local_public_p.html#Post140937

"She hit the ceiling on three subtests, and her tester believed she could easily go higher on the SB-LM. She reads (chapter books) and writes fluently in English, Spanish, and French (she particularly loves the Rainbow Fairies books in Spanish). She loves reading picture books on math, geography, and science, and generally seems to want to learn everything she possibly can."

Based on that profile (which sounds somewhat similar DD), and the fact that she's not eager to be a teacher pleaser and fit in with the other children (also similar to my DD), kindergarten -IMHO- is going to be like putting a round peg in a square hole. Painful for everyone!!!!!

We suffered through kindergarten, but midway through the year, they decided to move her to the combined 1st-3rd grade class (Montessori charter school), where she did much better, but still needed a lot of support due to her emotional immaturity/volatility. They only had a full day option, which was too much for her at age 5. I volunteered every afternoon as her 'teacher's aide'. The next year, she stayed in the same class and qualified for special ed (the teachers thought she's autistic, but doctor after doctor has said that she's not, so she qualified based on ADHD - which the teachers DON'T think she has!LOL!). But because she got into special ed, she was allowed to spend about three hours per day in the resource room where it's much quieter and has fewer kids (which she loves). By the end of the year, she could spend the whole day in her regular classroom without any problems, and she even started to form some warm relationships with the other kids.
Looking back at where we were 2 years ago, she should never have gone to kindergarten. We even had a note from a developmental pediatrician saying that kindergarten was "more likely to be frustrating than profitable" for her and that "she should not spend the majority of her day with children who are much younger than her cognitively." Of course, schools are against acceleration, particularly for a non-compliant and emotionally immature child, so we just had to suffer through...

... but looking back, it would have been ideal for her at age 5 to be placed in 2nd grade, half-day with a full-time aide.
Since it's extremely unlikely that a school would agree to that, homeschooling would also have been a better option than what we went through.

This sounded so familiar to me:
"Here's the problem. I'm not sure that the evidence is "leading" anywhere. The response that the FIVE psychologists/neuropsychs who have worked with DD give is basically, "We don't get it, she seems totally normal and in control... then at school she just isn't AT ALL... then she is again." And her maladaptive behavior takes SO MANY random forms. And none of it adds up to anything."

It sounds like giftedness and asynchronous development to me! It's not easy! But it my case, it's getting better as my daughter matures, learns more and more self-control, and internalizes the values and virtures that we're working hard to teach her.

I think "perceived slight" is key. It still seems quite unlikely to me that this is giftedness alone, seems more like 2E to me.

Yes, the boy was irritating, but he has also clearly learned that your DD reliably offers the opportunity for a big entertaining blowup.

Girls with Asperger's are often missed even by skilled practitioners, FWIW. YMMV, naturally.


And really very Aspergerish IMO. I'm still wondering here, despite what your practitioners are saying.


A strong sense of justice/injustice (sometimes a mis-tuned strong sense...) is also a feature of some gifted/autistic types. I would distinguish that from empathy.


My DS (2E/Asperger's) was like this at your DD's age.

We are people who chose to keep our kid in school and work out the aggression/escape behaviors. It has been one ton of effort, but we still think it was the better choice. DS has learned to function and really contribute in a classroom setting. He's now happy we made him learn how to do this.

What was required to get him to this point:
--bringing in our private BCBA to all IEP and other school meetings, and having that person design a behavior intervention plan for school that would teach the correct behavior (while keeping others safe, of course)

--special ed support, many hours per week, to reinforce desired behavior and catch misbehavior before it spiraled out of control. Ideally, this person catches the thinking mistake that *becomes* a behavior problem, teaches the child to identify it as a thinking mistake and reframe it, so that the behavior doesn't happen. This is a multi-year learning process.

--appropriate academic placement to minimize boredom and maximize participation

Note that an IEP does not necessarily require the medical diagnosis (though the diagnosis can help the school team understand what's going on); it requires the team to identify needs that make it impossible for the child to receive a free appropriate public education (FAPE) without accommodations/ services.

It seems reasonably clear to me that your DD is not going to get FAPE without an IEP. I wouldn't really want her in school without a serious plan in place for her to learn the correct ways of "doing school." Yet if you can get the right supports into place, school may be the place to learn those skills; they are harder to master at home, where she has so much more control over the environment.

HTH,
DeeDee

You're unlikely to get a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome, as it's been removed from the list of official diagnoses. In Kindergarten we were told that my daughter was not eligible for an IEP because she was several grade levels ahead in all subjects. But the next year, there was a new special ed teacher at the school who swore that my daughter was just like her now grown-up son who has Asperger's. So, she advocated for DD to have tons of assessments through the IEP process, and then she was shocked when the final report came back: "Although the diagnosis of autistic disorder was considered as another possible special education designation, behavioral observations and collateral data were not consistent to this diagnosis." My DD qualified under the "other health impaired" because in March of her kindergarten year we got a diagnosis of ADHD privately. The same doctor had seen her 9 months previously and at that time she did not give any diagnosis. An ADHD diagnosis is not hard to get (based on impulse control and difficulty shifting to non-preferred activities), and may help qualify you for services. I don't think it would be appropriate for her to be full time in a special ed class, but there are other services -- like sensory breaks, social skills group, OT, resource room pull out, behavioral support team, etc that might help.

I don't deny that it's not 2E... only that the current classification scheme of psychological/neurological disorders is inadequate to explain some kids like these... I find that asynchronous development is a better framework for my own understanding of her challenges...and also I live everyday believing that my daughter is outgrowing these problems and does not have a lifelong neurological impairment.

I strongly agree with DeeDee on three points:
1. I'd rather have my daughter remain in school to be part of the community, to learn how to adapt, to build quality friendships...
2. Special ed support has been invaluable... the special ed teacher and resource room have been wonderful, and we were able to come up with a behavioral plan and metacognitive strategies that worked for her.
3."Appropriate academic placement" is essential. My daughter gets lessons with the older kids and independent work that's several grade levels ahead. It's not as good as what we would do at home, but it's worth it for the other benefits of keeping her in school. I strongly believe that without appropriate academics, all the IEP and behavioral support in the world would not have made the situation bearable for anyone.

I think it would be great to get an IEP if possible, but the success depends on having the good teachers and support team that really care about the child. We were very lucky in this regard this past school year.

moomin, I am so sorry your dd is continuing to struggle - I know how tough it is to feel caught without a good solution in any direction, which it must feel like right now. I will second everything in DeeDee's post - I also doubt this is simply as easy as "she's gifted". If it was me, I'd also leave her in school - I may be way offbase here and I'm looking at this from the very limited perspective of what you've posted here, but from what you've written in this and previous posts, she seems to be having an unusually tough time socially. It's easy on the one hand to dismiss it by saying it only happens at school - but look at what school *is* at this age - that's the outside world. If you take her out of school to avoid the challenge, you also avoid the opportunity to help her learn how to cope with the challenge. And if you can help your dd work through these challenges now, in the early years of elementary school, she'll be much more able to take advantage of opportunities that open up in middle school and beyond - because that is where the opportunities for gifted students in most school districts really open up and there's a lot more to be excited about and want to take advantage of.

It's not easy being the parent of a 2e child in the early elementary years. When our kids are really young and at home with us their intellectual gifts are usually what we see, and the other pieces of the 2e may or may not appear, and if we see them we often see them as quirks and nothing more. Then our kids get out into the "real world" (aka school) and they are challenged in ways they don't experience at home - whether it's academics or social or environmental or whatever - and their world starts falling apart. Understanding what's up is usually much more difficult than looking up a set of symptoms and yep, there's your diagnosis - it can take years of observing, testing, talking to teachers etc. As dismal as that all may sound - it's also a time, though, where you can see tremendous progress once you have an idea of how to help your child - because it's much easier to start working through issues with our children when they are young than it's going to be to take her out of the situation completely, hope it resolves on it's own, come back in 3-4 years hoping to re-enter school (or whatever) and finding out that the challenge is still there, and now suddenly your dd is 4-6 years older and much less compliant re working with and communicating with you.

Sorry I got a bit long-winded and am not sure that made sense! Please know I am hoping you'll be able to find some truly help soon. And fwiw, I'd move forward with the IEP even though you may be worried about how the school will use it.

Best wishes,

polarbear

eta - one other thought for you - perhaps your dd isn't on the autism spectrum - that doesn't mean she wouldn't potentially benefit from some of the behavioral approaches used for children who are on the ASD spectrum. My ds is not on the spectrum, but has Developmental Coordination Disorder - two very different diagnoses, yet they share some very common challenges too, and many of the very helpful ideas that I've tried with ds have come from reading of the experiences of parenting ASD kids. His speech therapist has also used strategies with him that she uses with ASD kids she works with. So while a diagnosis might not be there (yet, or maybe ever), there still may be some very worthwhile ideas to try simply by isolating specific behaviors that you want to work on to help your dd and then look for ways others have approached the problem.