Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What teachers think

This article really annoyed me. It feels like an attempt to discourage parents from approaching teachers. It also has such negative feelings towards students.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/06/living/teachers-want-to-tell-parents/index.html

Ohhh I think I know who this principal is! There was another article about her and what a big loss it is to the district she is in to lose her... But on a private facebook group I am on for special needs children the parents in that school linked the article in our group and all taking about how horrible she was to special needs and twice exceptional students and she fought them so hard she drove many of them out of the school

And I agree with you Squishy.

I agree. The tone is off putting and adversarial from the start.

I understand some of the pain teachers must go through with some parents. But just as there are probably very few really bad teachers, there are probably very few really bad parents (and I mean bad in the way this article defines bad).

DS11 has received 3 bs in his school experience thus far and in the end they averaged out to all As. The first b he received was in third grade. The other two he received in 5th. There was only one I discussed with his teacher and that was because he told me she hadn't gone over the material with the class. And through the parent-grapevine I learned that the dc who normally received As all received Bs or lower that 6wks. So I went in. But I didn't go in accusing the teacher of not teaching the material. And I didn't talk about all the others not doing well. I simply said, "Is my son doing all he can do in your estimation. Because he is capable of understanding any material you teach and this is a red-flag."

The teacher was and is one of the best teachers he's had and was, at least that afternoon, defensive and nearly defeated, and surprised me with her angst.

It's a complex issue. I rarely go in to discuss issues with ds's teachers. But when the situation warrants it, or I want more information, I will do so. It's my obligation to do so.

I've read that one before and what really stuck with me was the comment about turning to the student and asking, "Did you do that?". How demeaning for a teacher! A person in authority who is, in their presence, being asked by a child if their account of an event happened or not. Kids lie to get out of trouble. (This is not apropos in accusations of abuse, of course.)

Overall, I have to agree with the article. Teachers are pushed to the limit by parents.

Quoting: This one may be hard to accept, but you shouldn't assume that because your child makes straight A's that he/she is getting a good education. The truth is, a lot of times it's the bad teachers who give the easiest grades, because they know by giving good grades everyone will leave them alone. Parents will say, "My child has a great teacher! He made all A's this year!"

Wow. Come on now. In all honesty, it's usually the best teachers who are giving the lowest grades, because they are raising expectations. Yet, when your children receive low scores you want to complain and head to the principal's office.

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I really hope my son (6) doesn't encounter a teacher who will give him an A just to pacify his father and me. I expect the school to grade him on his true performance...and that performance at the level in which he is capable...regardless of age. I know I may not like to hear the teacher's comment, but does she really "have it out for my kid?" Probably not.

You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth may be the best thing in the world for you. ~Walt Disney

And I wonder if teachers were paid an adequate salary and were empowered to do their jobs, if there would be less adversarial interactions.

Ooh, here's a comment that cuts both ways:


And if we're playing Spot the Contradiction, I submit these:

Excellent point. We're also getting a bunch of very passionate people for whom teaching is a calling, and then I hate to say mediocre folks because why would the high achieves go into a profession with such low pay? (I did but I'm a high achiever with the calling, so much the worse for my pocketbook.)

I do think the point about one tiny mistake costing you your career is a real issue. As a parent I want excellent supervision and care of my kids. As a teacher, the idea that dropping the ball for one second could mean the end--that's terrifying.

I agree, more transparency would help. Someday we'll have classroom webcams, right? :p I've had a few awful, awful parents trying bail out their kids who NEVER came to AP English, but the vast majority of parents are awesome, like their awesome kids!

As a parent of a twice exceptional kid, I simply can't just trust the teachers, take their advice and/or just hand my 2E kid over. They almost destroyed my son. In my experience so far, teachers jump to conclusions like ADHD, Autism and/or have decided that just needs some old fashioned discipline and to be shown whose boss. Most have never even heard of dysgraphia but know all about adhd and autism and will immediately lump any "problem" child right into that category. My kid, as many of you know has a genetic disorder which is rather invisible but greatly effects classroom performance and causes anxiety. It's also obvious to all of us on 'DS's side' that he has a learning disability (i.e., obvious to his therapists, his doctors, his parents and grandparents) but the teacher(s) will fight me tooth and nail on that one, too. MANY teachers have written him off as oppositional and more than one had 'diagnosed' him with adhd and autism after he began to act out b/c of teachers who do not understand him at all. Sorry, it may be a completely different experience for teachers and parents with a neurotypical child but I thank God I 'fought' the teachers and did not just take their advice and follow it. Sorry to bash but in my opinion and experience they want things easy - they want the kids to all be the same and they REALLY do not want to deal with an asynchronous kid. So I am a bit tired of their whining. Also in my experience ADULTS AND TEACHERS will lie like crazy to cover their asses ... most kids I know (at least under a certain age) are honest to a fault. When I started researching disability discrimination in schools, I was really horrified at what many children have suffered at the hands of nasty teachers. Sorry, teachers, that you can't just beat and shame children anymore! What a shame for you! And that's how it was done when I went to school - children were hit and constantly shamed for ANY difference or disability and parents just didn't question it at all in fact they backed the teacher up. Nowadays that isn't acceptable and yeah I guess that makes their job a little harder. Oh well.

Irena - check your pm's

I have to take issue with this idea. In California, teacher pay is high. The average salary in my county is $75,000 a year, and it's $68,000 overall in the state. This is for nine months of work. That's a GOOD salary. And we still have mediocre results (our test scores are near the bottom in reading and math). California schools have the same problems that other states have. And half of the state budget goes to education, yet they still want more money.

Personally, I'm convinced that our society oversimplifies the problems with our schools with claims that everything would get better if only the teachers got paid more and if only the class sizes were smaller. It's a complex problem.

And there are LOTS of people who go into professions for reasons other than pay (your post could be taken as implying that professions with low pay attract only mediocre types because people are only interested in money).

In my district and in my brothers district (same state) teachers make 100,000. In my brothers' district they would strike every year they were asked to contribute to their health care ins costs ( they paid nothing towards it). Last year, when they went on strike, the local newspaper posted the teachers' salaries and that's when they stopped striking ... People were furious. We not nearly as an expensive state as Cali and they make 100,000 and get several weeks off paid during the school year as well as in the summer. So with all that I think they can find it hearts to put up with us few "difficult" parents.

I don't know where you live but in our wealthy county in California, the median teacher's salary is only $56,000. That is NOT a lot of money, especially if you live in an expensive area. A lot of California has very expensive housing. They keep giving pink-slips to teachers in California (and, I'm sure, nationally). I would never want my kids to become teachers- not because it isn't a great field but because it pays poorly and you have a real danger of losing your job from year to year.

Wow, I may be taking things a little different. Not everything is so black and white, but they do tend to move certain directions. If you are reading this you are most likely are a very involved parent in your child’s education, this is a good thing. My DW is a TA in a public ES and works with special needs students. I run a math club within the MS and I am currently advocating for better math within the district. Much of what the article speaks to is true, and much is also missed. Teachers are people with good and bad days, great teachers and some very bad teachers. Blanket statements about teachers and parents are not overly helpful. DS10 has an English teacher that has a very bad reputation with a large number of parents for a very long time, she is retiring this year and I believe there may be a parent party. She teaches 6th grade and she gets most of the top students in her class. She is hard and place’s a lot of responsibility on the students. If you’re late you get 0, if you do not follow instructions you get 0. She has high expectations and many very good students do not do well with her. I believe about 1/2 have cried in her class. DS20 had her and had issues, many of the Scouts in our troop (20 years now) and their parents can’t stand her. I am on the fence about her. I like hard standards with no wiggle room for the students. It teachers them a lot more than just good English (By the way she does have high expectations of her students) she also gives out a lot of homework, lots of writing, with multiple drafts, and yes show all drafts. I don’t like that she can be mean, and even demeaning. Still I believe her heart is in the right spot and that her intent is to make much stronger people. This is just one teacher, my DS 10 has some that all he has to do is turn in HW and you get an A. How many of us have students where most students get an A in the Class, how about other classes where less the 10% get A’s. DW has a parent , whose child is ADHD, yet the parent refuses to even discuss it, and if DW were to bring it up officially she could be fired. I still see things as a collaborative effort for 80% of the kids, our 1% on this board may have a much more difficult time than most. I have seen the pushy parent, the helicopter parents, and the one I see the most the uninvolved parent. Teachers today are glorified babysitters, we have asked our schools to teach morals, feed our kids, provide health care, all kinds of different services, we sue them if our kids get a skinned knee (Can’t run on the play- ground anymore), we sue if they have an allergic reaction (For some I understand this can be deadly, DS 20 peanuts), I think sometimes we ask to much from the schools. I think (Like anyone asked me) that this issue is much more than us vs. them. My sons will continue to have both good and bad teachers, and they will have to learn to deal with it, I will continue to advocate when needed, and if a particularly Bad teacher does something I will step in, after all I am an involved parent.

I think like any other profession - teachers want to be able to call the shots and not be questioned. Doctrs and lawyers want the same. And like teachers often we don't get it. I am lawyer and believe me we have plenty of difficult clients... the most difficult ones are usually the most knowledgeable and honestly they usually get the best result... They go toe to toe with you and are not always right but you learn how to deal with them, often you do better for them because of them and sometimes you even learn from them. The easy clients are the ignorant, compliant ones who don't question you. I am sure its the same with doctors. I don't think we ask too much from schools - I don't think we ask enough. For years they got to do whatever they wanted to children, now they are just pissed that such a situation is becoming increasingly unacceptable.

Having said all that, DS has had more good teachers than bad and some are wonderful. I have no problem with them being paid well if they do a good job. Still, they need to stop bitching that parents make their jobs hard b/c they simply don't just 'put up and shut up.' Go be a dog trainer if that is what you want.

Incidently, I don't care if DS gets A's... I just want him treated with respect and have access to his curriculum. I'd also like them not to lose his Epi-pen so, yeah, call me a overbearing but I'd rather him not die at school.

Yes, you have a whole different level of worry and advocacy.

The thing that bothers me about the system is that there seems to be no financial incentive to be a good teacher.

The pay scale should not just be based on certificates and years employed.

I didn't mean to imply all low paying jobs only attract mediocre workers--like I said, there are those who are called to it-- but a lot of potentially really great teachers, folks who have excelled in college, stay the heck away because they can go work in a professional environment and make $70k or more their first year, where starting teachers get 30-50k or so. This is pretty regularly discussed in articles lately it seems. There are some counties with great pay and some with lower pay, and the issue of teachers not being able to afford housing near where they teach is a longstanding one in California. And yes, the pink slip thing is no fun. But throwing more money at schools won't automatically solve all education problems (though CA is pretty darn low on student spending nationally I think).

That all said, I agree with Edwin that it's not black and white. And there are factions within schools among teachers--some are always complaining and trying to get away with whatever is easier for them, and many live for their students. But even some of them hate to hear from parents much. Personally I loved it, but rarely got much interaction because I taught high school, and it was sometimes terrifying to deal with some parents. I think more forums and opportunities for parents to interact with teachers would help. This article seems quite whiny; it's a teacher's job to work with parents. Of course you can nitpick but why? Most parents are amazingly supportive.

Irena, DH is an OB and I think he would agree with you. An educated patient with opinions about her care may be harder, but he actually appreciates it tons -- as long as she is respectful and not irrational.

...duly weighted in consideration of qualifications to offer advice in a particular area, and to be refuted with refereed literature/professional assessments in hand. Check.


If I were a teacher, I would be livid if this guy purported to represent my cause. To paraphrase him: "We wish we had the courage to be effective." Yikes.


I'll just switch my brain to blind faith mode. This is the Borg. Resistance is fu-tile.

As an aside, I often wonder if choice to work at a private school is an indicator of vocation in teaching. In our province, fully loaded average teacher pay and benefits are >$100k. Somehow, my little private high school managed to attract a team of remarkable teachers without matching provincial pay scales. These teachers almost universally supported extra-curricular activities, took a personal interest in each student, and were strong role models for myself and my classmates. Having spoken with them after I graduated, many said their choice of where to work was guided by the smaller class sizes and more pleasant working atmosphere of a university-bound crowd.

Yes-- and in all of my years of teaching (uni) and my mom's (primary, both public and private), this was what we observed to be true for 70-90% of our colleagues, too.

The problem is that on the one hand, that 10-30% of rotten apples on the teacher side ruin parents for rational discourse, and that on the other, about the same percentage of students (uni) and parents (primary and I'd assume also secondary) are also irrational.

I had never actually run into a truly irrational/difficult teacher until my DD was a high schooler. Of course, there are definitely lackluster, barely competent models. There are in most professions. For HG people, teaching isn't exactly filled with high octane processing speeds, to say the least...

but at least in primary, the loving and conscientious teachers can often make it work anyway-- for 99% of students, anyway.

We do ask teachers to do too much now. We do. Mainstreaming and inclusion are, on balance, both right and good-- but they DO create problems within classrooms when it comes to effective teaching.

Remove tracking/ability grouping and there is an additional and very critical hurdle.

Frankly, the largest reason that GOOD teachers have left (and continue to do so) seems to me to be the focus on testing-testing-testing. A lot of the good ones become so repulsed by that machine that they eventually quit thinking that they can be Don Quixote, and find something else to tilt at.

Well said.

Here's the problem that teachers, as a whole, have got to understand at some point - until they allow BAD teachers to be fired, and GOOD teachers to be given raises/promotions, they are all going to continue to be tarred by the handful of crap teachers.

All it takes is one shit teacher to sully a parents view of the school/district. One single year with one crap teacher can completely alter a parents view of their child's education. And they will likely talk about that crap teacher with their friends.

It's a very serious problem, and until teachers are willing to be treated like every single other profession, they are going to have problems.


Also, I have to agree with Irena.. as a parent of a 2e kid I cannot just assume the teacher is going to know what's going on with my kid. If I'd blindly trusted all his previous teachers he'd have probably ended up in a psychiatric ward! And I *have* had teachers straight up lie to my face about my child. It's very disconcerting, I know, but my child rarely, if ever, lies. And when he attempts to, he's terrible at it. So, yes, I ask my child to confirm a teacher's story - not necessarily because I do not believe her, but because I want to hear, from him, what happened.

TL;DR: One bad apple spoils the bunch.

I love that: 'present curriculum'. Exactly.

You know I read that and had a completely different thought pattern. My wife is a teacher of 29 years for MS & HS. My first thought pattern was wondering what the teacher would get so upset about if a parent did that? Why would one immediately assume that the question assumes the teacher is lying? How many times have any of us, knowing full well the answer asked our children, "Did you do X?" simply to confront them and have them admit guilt as part of holding them accountable? If a teacher immediately takes offense / becomes defensive in this scenario, then they've got confidence problems and aren't thinking past the end of their nose.

I know my kids feel that the worst punishment they can get is when I've confronted them and they see the deep disappointment in my eyes and perhaps get that verbal confirmation, "I'm really disappointed in your actions, you're a better person than that, so SHOW me that's true." I will, however, always discuss the issue with them and hear their side of the story before I make that judgement, to do otherwise is treating them with less respect than I do the teacher. I've raised my sons, I've lived with them for 15 and 19 years respectively, I know them like the back of my hand, yes, I'm going to treat them with as much respect and trust as I do the teacher and I'm going to question both my child and the teacher, their actions, their motives, and how they plan to move forward from this point. I hold myself accountable, I hold my kids accountable, and I'll hold a teacher accountable but not without getting to the bottom of things. There are precious few people who's word I take at face value simply because of a position they hold or a family status. Someone who I've met a couple of times and who's been involved in my child's life for less than 100 hrs. isn't one of them.

I know I could certainly write the counter article to that, "What parents want teachers to know and understand when educating our children." I don't disagree with everything the article addresses, however, the article generally states, "Hey, we're the experts here, back off." Well, no, you're not necessarily the expert and I've had about an hour of contact with any one teacher at most through the whole semester, it would be foolish of me to assume knowing someone for an hour that I'm going to assume they know what is right for my child and the best way to teach them. Trust and respect are gained not by virtue of position but by virtue of performance and building a relationship over time and we're talking about what is most precious to me.....so don't get your undies in a bunch.

I agree with most of your post, Old Dad. Also, I hate the thought that parents will never doubt a teacher and just blindly go along with everything and anything. The whole article just comes across as angry and bitter; if all teachers really feel this way, then I hope and wish that parents will involve themselves more than ever.

What a beautiful post, Old Dad.

Great post Old Dad.

Epoh, I agree about the bad apple, and I believe it works both ways with the bad parent. You would think most parents would be as vested in their children as we are, many are not. Also the system as a whole (Public system) try's to serve more and more as parents, and many parents are more then happy to turn over their parental responsabilitys to the schools.

YES.

A curriculum which is increasingly stupid/inane to the point of worthlessness, and which one would (truly) have to be cognitively impaired to not notice was.... um.. "bad." Bad is merely a kind euphemism there, actually.

I've discouraged my own DD from secondary teaching for that reason-- not because she doesn't have a passion for it, because she clearly does, and she's also very clearly got a real gift for it-- but because the lack of autonomy coupled with the apparent stupidity of those making curriculum decisions does nothing but chew up the good ones and spit them out.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that the professoriate is a better choice at this point, either-- because higher ed is being slowly infected by the same "progressive" and "disruptive" agenda, which from what I can tell is often little more than a mask for the underlying agenda of for-profit enterprises interested in maximizing profits from a captive audience of consumers.

What I'm reminded in relation to this article is a discussion I had with my wife (who I've previously mentioned is a teacher of 29 years) and ADORES it when parents come in to discuss their child. Her opinion is that's what parents are SUPPOSE to do, be an active part of their child's education, if they're not, she feels sorry for the child....anyway, she stated that the vast majority of teachers and administrators avoid meetings with parents like a disease, simply because they completely lack the skills to effectively work through any kind of confrontation. These aren't skills they teach in the college of education, there is no, "Teacher / Parent Meetings 101" Colleges teach the mechanics of teaching, they don't teach personal relationships and conflict management. Is it any wonder then that teachers are deathly afraid of meeting with parents and get defensive?

I keep asking why some kids do an hour of afterschool tutoring to "keep up with the Jonses" and go to Yale, and some kids do the same extra hours every day and can't get caught up to grade level. I do understand that there are levels of giftedness. I find it hard to believe that most kids are that dumb that they can't be taught. Kids are sponges. I don't want to disparage but I do want to know the truth. Is it somewhere between extra hours for tutoring if you teach less effectively (two of my family members have mentioned that, not my idea). Teachers are tied to the curriculum and the same guys that sell the textbooks sell the tests. People whose families are teachers have told me the teachers hands are tied as to doing what they're told instead of doing what works. And of course there are levels of cognitive abilities, parental expectations and involvement. It just does not make sense to me that there are first graders who can not read after three years of school and extra hours of afterschool tutoring by professionals when there are video games that get the job done in less time. It makes it confusing to know what is right. Do kids go to school to learn! Don't the books work? Do teachers really have their hands tied, and why? What's wrong with this picture- oh yeah, people don't want to learn and don't want their kids learning anything either. That's not sarcasm, parents really do seem more worried about social development than education at school. They admit to holding their kids back as their opinion of the best choice. I think the majority want the school staff to be social directors more than educators. I'm not sure wether that mindset started from the teachers or the parents, but they seem to agree about it now.

It just makes me questionthe future of education. Which is better, appropriate education or brick and morter schools with class participation. It seems like a hybrid with both self paced internet classes but in a school setting. Maybe.

Indeed.

And so, we have a broken system in which no good teacher would want to remain, no sensible person would enter the profession to begin with, yet the solution is to fire the bad ones.

This leaves us with mediocre teachers, working within a system, which, thanks to NCLB and the testing culture it has produced, incentivizes mediocrity.

Thank you, Old Dad. Your words are wise.

I don't think I made myself clear. My problem with a parent asking a child in front of the teacher if they did what the teacher is accusing them of is because I think it's disrespectful of the teacher's authority in the child's eyes. Of course a parent shouldn't just take the word of the teacher, but should ask the child (in private) for their account of the incident in question. But to do so in front of the teacher using, "Did you do that?" type sentences isn't the way to go about it, imo. I would want to ask the teacher for some privacy with my child to speak with them before continuing with the conference.

A teacher who thinks a parent should blindly accept their rendition of events without asking their child what happened (in private) should be regarded with caution, certainly.

Oh, and I realized I made a mistake in my original post. Instead of: "A person in authority who is, in their presence, being asked by a child if their account of an event happened or not.", I meant to say, "A person in authority who is, in the presence of the child having their account questioned by asking the child if they did it or not. *

*frustrated at my poor communication skills here!

A better question, which I think doesn't require privacy to ask, is "OK, you heard what Teacher X said about what you did. Do you have anything else you want to tell me about what happened?" My kids, at least, would not hesitate to get their version of events on the record, but it doesn't disrespect the teacher to get both sides of the story (or at least it shouldn't).

Great point, Elizabeth.

Of course we all have our different manner of going about things and we're all entitled to them. If my child is accused in front of the teacher and I, then I feel it appropriate for my child to respond in front of the teacher and I. If the teacher sends me a personal e-mail / phone call, then I'll question my child in private.

I understand. I'm not comfortable questioning my child in front of anyone.

I should say, I'm not comfortable putting my child on the spot in front of anyone!