Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional ADD/EF: where would you put your money?

We haven't had dd evaluated in quite a few years, but she has over the years had IQ testing, achievement testing, counseling, and other evals. Her dx include inattentive type ADHD, anxiety (which may not be a severe as it was at the time of the dx), and possible dyslexia. She is also HG+ per IQ.

In elementary, it was hard to get any recognition for either the giftedness or the LDs b/c she wasn't the consistent high achiever who performed well on group tests, loved reading, hand in the air, etc. In middle school, they recognize the giftedness, but tend to attribute the problems like not turning in work, erratic performance, inability to remember things but high conceptual understanding, etc. to pre-teen development and just assume that she'll outgrow them and aren't seeing the LD. As a result, we've had huge lack of follow through from teachers on doing what they agree to do to support her LDs b/c they don't all seem to believe there is a problem (save for her English teacher last year who also had a HG 2e kid).

So, we're at the point of one of the following:

- moving her into easier classes against the strong opposition of her teachers so the work is too easy and the processing/executive function issues aren't a problem b/c she isn't, technically, needing to "process" much;
- trying "educational therapy" with the realization that we cannot afford to do as much as would be recommended ($75/hr for a few hours/week for 3 months-a year is the recommendation; we'd, at best, be able to do one hour/week for six weeks or so and then try to continue at home with the same techniques). Here's the therapy we're considering: http://www.rockymountaineducationaltherapy.com/services/educationalTherapyTreatmentPrograms.php
- the school principal's suggestion is that we have her see a local psych he's seen do good work with ADD kids and have him review prior testing, maybe do more, and have him write up something for the school on what she needs. He then suggests that we get her on the case load of the RtI coordinator in the fall so there is more follow through.

Of course, we could still do the RtI coordinator if we go the route of the educational "therapist" rather than the psych. Either one, we'd be paying out of pocket.

The hesitancy I have with going the psych route is that dd has seen two psychs in the past and totally clams up and becomes very quiet with psychs. She tends to feel like she is being condescended to and "fixed." She is also very opposed to medicating ADD, which the principal was careful to say he wasn't pushing, but I also got the impression that the psych he was mentioning might be inclined to want to medicate.

Of course, dd may be just as uncooperative with the educational therapist. Dd is also not highly motivated. She wants to do well, but she isn't driven to figure out a way to do so. She tends to refuse any offers of assistance and proclaims helplessness/complete lack of understanding on why she didn't do well on things when she does not.

My concern is not her grades, which are fairly good, but more her processing. She is given opportunities to redo things on which she's done poorly (I'm not sure this is a good idea, but that's a side point...), but she does just as poorly when she redoes things. She tells me that her mind is like a sieve - she just cannot remember things. What her teachers are seeing, and why they are pushing to keep moving her forward in accelerated classes, is that she really gets the concepts and can actually help others who do not and explains things such that it appears that she understands what she is talking about.

We really cannot afford to just throw money in many directions, but I'm not sure where to go at this point. Has anyone had any luck with executive functioning training or anything of that sort? Or, do you think going one of the other routes makes more sense?

What kinds of scaffolding efforts have you tried up until now?

Does your DD see this as a problem? (Not arguing that it isn't, by any means-- just trying to gauge how cooperative she'd be with homegrown DIY based efforts to hothouse EF for her.)

While we don't think there is much beyond asynchrony behind DD's occasional problems with EF demand and her ability to meet it, we've still had to do a lot of scaffolding for her in order to help her with organization and time-management, as well as just, well, keeping a written record of important things, so that she doesn't "lose" them irretrievably all the time.

Our kids sound so alike, except that mine is less gifted and a little younger. She's also VERY hard to help. She clearly has issues, multiple of them, which together add up to quite a major deficit, but none of them are strong enough to be a nice clear problem to attack and get clear results from. Everyone can see that she has social problems and academic problems but no-one can figure out quite how to meaninfully help her. It's frustrating.

The single biggest win we've ever had with her was from buying her an iPod, setting up her morning and afternoon routines in an app called Home Routines (it's designed for managing housework ala flylady) and rewarding her for successful use of said device with the currency of the day (pocket money, toys, screen time, whatever). This made the biggest difference at the start, when she finally had the miraculous experience of being ready for school on time, under her own steam and a) had a really nice morning because no-one got cross at her and b) had 20 mins to sit in the car with her iPod and play on it. Realising that this was POSSIBLE really changed her mindset about being more together. We still have plenty of crappy days, but two years on she now self manages quite well most mornings without the ipod...

We've also set term long goals with rewards at the end - often 2 or three goals (for example you must do 20 mins good quality piano practice every day, must do 10 mins typing practice per day and must include me in the process of planning and executing your term project at school so we can work on those skills and make sure you get it done well and in time). This approach resulted in an embarassment of Monster High dolls, but did definitely improve commitment to piano practice, how she went on her term project, etc. And I found some things (like the piano practice) did not need to keep being a rewarded goal but did keep going at that level after so long of it being normal.

How recent is your latest eval? It might be good to get someone to re-evaluate thoroughly, to know what the biggest measurable obstacle is.


Is there a 504 in place? Was the dyslexia remediated?


For me, that would be kind of last-ditch. What is the work output like?


There's someone around here who does that kind of work, and the families that use that person are thrilled. I have no direct experience with it.

This sort of therapy, esp. for a teen, absolutely requires buy-in. Sometimes the therapist can create buy-in, sometimes not. You also would need them to not talk down to her; she will not be their typical client. I would say, meet with the therapist first to pre-screen. And talk to other people who have used that therapist.

I will also note that our school district has sometimes *paid* for this kind of service. That could be worth looking into.


The RtI part seems really important. Where we have gotten our mileage is having a school special ed teacher on the case to teach DS about organizational skills. He has come a long way because they are paying close attention to instructing him on this.



This is psychologist or psychiatrist? A psychologist should not be working on meds.

Any kind of talk therapy will depend on buy-in. I think an eduational therapist may be a better bet at achieving buy-in because they are more inclined to treat EF as a logistics issue rather than being "broken." But that is just a hunch.


That, to me, says intervention is a good idea. This sort of thing is not well tolerated in workplaces.

I would also talk to the ed therapist about your DD's reluctance to medicate for the ADHD-i. Would your DD revisit this issue if it were presented after working a while with someone she learns to trust, who is on her side? Some people with ADHD really do find that meds are needed.

DeeDee

HowlerKarma, can you elaborate more on the scaffolding you have done for her ? I am looking for ideas for my 5 year old child. Yes, he is 5. And he is usually OK at home, but school has been saying he is not focused (and things of that nature). I could use some EF ideas for little kids


This is very good. Dee dee, do schools, in general, provide this ? Do you have to ask for this ?

We've cobbled together a scaffolding plan that revolves around weaknesses (of both us as parents and her as a child), and our relative strengths. The first thing that we did was to honestly evaluate DD from our individual perspectives as parents. Yes, we love her dearly, and yes, we're non-objective (I suppose), but we also SEE her in all different kinds of settings because of her virtual schooling arrangement, and we're both physical scientists, able to don that "objectivity/criticality" hat when needed. This also gives us additional flexibility in meeting executive demands.

One book that we found helpful as we started was Late, Lost and Unprepared, and another was Smart But Scattered-- the latter was actually the pivotal bit for us, since it allowed us to frame what we were seeing as a two-way thing with parental strengths/weaknesses as well. We also used an organizing-oriented book that has worked MIRACLES for her-- Donna Goldberg's The Organized Student.

We had to get buy-in from her that she was tired of-- a) other people assuming she isn't reliable/responsible, and b) BEING unreliable/irresponsible. Then we laid out ways to help her, and let her help determine what she thought would/wouldn't work and discussed how to tackle the problems that we saw.

Furthermore, this is a sloooooow process. She's light years better than she was three years ago when we started in earnest, but when she improves in one area (she's now VERY good about filing her school papers and putting extracurricular materials where they belong), we work on others.

Routine-routine-routine. For kids with time-management issues, have a routine that is virtually unbreakable. Put exercise into that routine somewhere. Teach very specific attack strategies and remind the child to use them-- think of yourself as a stage prompter until they have the lines down pat.

Basically it is exactly the kind of thing that DeeDee is referring to in her SpEd specialist's approach, but adapted for a tween/teen. I'm not sure how much of that is appropriate for a 5yo.

HK: We bought that Smart but Scattered book (probably on your recommendation because I saw it here first, so thank you!). Looking forward to digging in.

The major thing on dd's end is that she really isn't someone who is late or clearly disorganized. What she is is erratic in performance and she doesn't seem to learn from her mistakes. There is a chart of EF issues on the educational therapist's site here: http://www.rockymountaineducationaltherapy.com/files/pdf/ExecutiveFunction.pdf The first one, working memory, is where her problems primarily lie except that I can't say that she's one who I'd see as being late for appointments. I, of course, am more responsible for getting us places on time than she is, but she is always ready in time for school and appointments and is not one who is holding us up.

I do worry that the educational therapist isn't as familiar with HG+ kids as she portrays. Everyone always says that, yes, I've worked with lots of HG kids, but most people, I've found, haven't worked with kids at the LOG of mine. Wow, that sounds arrogant! I didn't mean it that way, but we have run into problems with various assessors and counselors who really didn't have much experience working with more than high achievers or mildly gifted kids yet who assured us they did.

To answer some of the questions:

No, there has been no dyslexia remediation. It isn't a definite dx, but I suspect that the suggestion is correct. Dh has the same problems and both of them say that reading hurts and do not enjoy it. We've not found a way to remediate as most of the remediation techniques we've seen tend to focus on phonics. Dd always tested advanced on phonemic assessments such as DIBELS and reads above grade level and has for a long time despite never reading if she doesn't have to. Her two WISC-IV tests years ago (one year apart) both had two of the three VCI scores at the ceiling and the VCI as a whole above the 99th percentile. She compensates well and the dyslexia approaches I've seen don't seem appropriate for her. Her issues include words moving on the page, lost place on the page, headaches when reading, and, when she was younger, constantly mixing up simple words like "for" instead of "from" while reading challenging words correctly. We have had her eyes checked multiple times, the most recently a few months ago by a developmental optometrist. There are no convergence or other eye problems.

In terms of scaffolding we've tried: in 5th grade, we tried extended time on tests, testing in a separate room to remove distractions, and a few things like chewing gum in class and taking omega-3 and magnesium supplements. The supplements seemed to work, but she refused to take them by the end of 5th b/c she felt that we were saying that something was wrong with her and we were trying to fix her with pills. The extended time and different room for testing did nothing.

This year I also sat down with her and showed her how to make very detailed, step by step notes and made them for her for one test. She did very well on that test, but her notes using my formatting were not as good later on I suspect. She refused to let me see them or to see what she had done poorly on. She is rather secretive, which makes this harder.

The psych that the principal suggested is not a psychiatrist. However, the principal mentioned a few times that this guy can work with your dr on meds although he followed that up to assure me that he cannot recommend that I medicate my dd. We've been hesitant to go the meds route for a few reasons:
-dd's strong desire not to
-worries about the impact on a growing brain
-having heard that meds work less well for ADHD-i than the hyperactive variant
-worries about reduction in appetite b/c dd is maybe in the 5th percentile of size (height and weight). She'll be 13 in four months and weighs 69 or 70 lbs and is about 4'8" or 4'9". Granted, her size is not atypical in our family, but we don't want to stunt her growth.

Cricket, I agree with the suggestion to have a reevaluation done. Perhaps the school will do it? This way, if you are made aware of any changes, improvements, etc, than you can better target your resources.

Cricket, does your DD give an explanation for her not improving on redo?

I asked and the principal said that there is no way that they can do any type of evaluation or diagnosis. They will not pay for or do anything except implement suggestions that we bring to them from outside evals. I know, having fought this fight before, that getting anything evaluated by the school for a student who is performing above grade level is nearly impossible. I did manage to get the WIAT (achievement) administered for dd14, who is hugely above grade level and grade accelerated, b/c it was simple. However, things like OT evals, IQ, anything involving LDs for kids who aren't below grade level, ADD evals, etc. flat out don't happen. I spent a couple months on this and worked all the way to the state dept of ed with dd14. We got nowhere other than getting the WIAT done for her. Everything else we had to do privately and pay for ourselves.

That's a shame. But indicative of how a lot of schools in the US leave the brightest to fend for themselves.

That's why, unless you suspect something that is way out there in terms of remediation (and it sounds like you don't, given that you're looking to non-medication methods of coping/management), I'd try doing this as just individual learning needs first.

We've had individual teachers, lesson teachers, coaches, etc. be VERY cooperative with specific approaches that help integrate with the overall scaffold-- we just had to ask. We never couched any of this as "EF deficit" or anything-- just mentioned that "It helps {DD} when you remind her to write her practice schedule in her notebook."

(Previously the piano teacher even did if FOR her for a while-- then she asked if she wanted her to, and now she only very occasionally reminds.)

It's not that far out there to specifically teach EF to kids as adolescents. Most adults who work with kids this age are ready, willing, and able. Suggestions mostly will be well-received, we've found. This can be oral cues, timed reminders for larger projects, and similar things. Or asking about specific components of assignments, if that is problematic. Just touching a daydreaming/inattentive child on the shoulder gently in passing to redirect. That kind of thing.

You just have to figure out WHAT to suggest, and that is unique and based on the particular mosaic of skills in the child in question.

Cricket2, I'm on my phone this morning so I don't have the patience or typing skills to write a detailed response but fwiw, my gut feeling is its time for another private eval. You'll need to have one anyway soon if you'll be applying for college board accommodations... and I think that it would be useful in getting advice on dealing with dyslexic issues if they exist as well as helping you understand the source of your dd's EF struggles. It's possible that what you're seeing isn't ADHD.

Re building EF skills, I agree with HK. We've made good progress with our ds EF challenges by supporting him in building them basically one at a time in the manner HK suggests. We've had mixed success with his teachers - but the challenge there was simply a lack of recognition on the part of ds teachers that ds challenge was in any way more of a challenge than what a typical teen faces re organization, hence the teacher method was sink or swim without support.

I also would add that I think the potential reading issues and appropriate accommodations may be every bit as important to try to get a handle on now. We have quite a bit of suspected dyslexia in the adults in my dh family and some diagnosed dyslexia as well as other dys- syndromes among our children's generation. One of my ds cousins is I suspect both HG+ as well as undiagnosed dyslexic, and she compensated by putting in extra work reading for years but her compensating met its match on post-grad exams and work that were really important to her, and at that point as a young adult she had a very tough time getting accommodations for exams and she couldn't afford to fund an eval on her own. She didn't even realize herself that it might be dyslexia until her younger cousins were being id'd and diagnosed.

polarbear

Well, I'm not certain that you actually need much EF to get through school, so I doubt they see it as "fending for themselves".

The issue we would run into with another eval is that budget is very tight. If we put the $ toward an eval, we have nothing left for treatment. I do know that we'd need a more recent eval for accommodations on tests, but I'm more interested at this point in figuring out what type of support or accommodations she needs than having recent test scores for College Board applications, for instance.

The last eval was over $1000 and didn't give us any better of an idea what to do to deal with the problems - only what the problems may be. The EF tutor lady can do some eval as part of the process, just not IQ, etc again.

Hi Cricket2,

That's... lame. I can tell you that our DS is considerably above grade level across the board, and he has needed and received extensive evaluation and remediation. (Admittedly: we had to argue hard at the start, AND he had disruptive behavior, which meant that everyone was eager to help. Much harder for a well-behaved child.)

The law mandates that if you request an evaluation in any area of suspected disability, they are required to evaluate or say why they won't; at which point you can challenge that decision in a variety of ways. They are being negligent by leaving your DD with a suspected LD unevaluated. They have a "child find" obligation to *seek out* and support students with disabilities.

IDEA also covers "academic and functional skills"-- which means if your child is not failing but lacks the ability to function in ways that impede normal schooling (i.e. can't find papers or remember to turn them in or whatever to an extreme degree) that is covered as a special educational need under the law. (If you type "functional" into the search box at wrightslaw.com, you will get information on this.)

When you asked, did you ask *in writing*? Because it is often the (evil, illegal) practice to tell people "no" who ask verbally. If you ask in writing, they have legal obligations to you; it is all outlined on wrightslaw.

In short-- I believe the school owes you an eval, though I totally understand that local practice may be so against you that it's beating your head against the wall. A letter from an advocate who drops the appropriate legalese to the director of special ed in your district might help. Or might not. Sometimes there has been enough water under the bridge, or lawsuits by other parents, or what have you, to change the game, and it becomes worth trying again.

My feeling would be to pursue the eval with a neuropsych, because without it you would be flying blind. You can be specific-- you may not really need new IQ numbers, but achievement numbers and tests that measure reading skills, memory, and the various kinds of attention would give you data to decide what to do next. You could then take this data back to the school to negotiate further based on evidence that there's need.

That's probably how I'd approach it...

DeeDee

This info and reminder is helpful for us all. Thank you, Deedee.

I requested evals both in writing and over the phone for dd14. They pretty much did not respond to my written requests at all. Essentially what I got then and I am getting now is that they don't have the training as diagnosticians to evaluate the types of concerns we have & it is beyond their scope of service. For dd14 it was OT stuff that they said no one in the district had training to evaluate. For dd12, I suspect that part of the problem is that they would argue that her issues aren't functional limitations since all pre-teens forget to turn things in, do poorly on some stuff, etc. They don't see a problem essentially.

RtI (response to intervention) is supposed to be operating for everyone. It means that if something doesn't seem to be working, they try something else, before going through a formal special ed process about it.

In practice, sometimes it works great, sometimes it's an excuse for a district to drag its feet on implementing services.

I don't think anyone is going to implement an individualized special education program of teaching EF to a 5-year-old if that's the only issue; especially in boys it's assumed they can't get their act together for some years yet. If there are other concerns in addition, or if it's diagnosable ADHD, you are more likely to be able to get something into place. If those skills aren't coming into place and the gap between a child and peers gets really obvious, it's more clear to school that something should be done.

It is true that schools do work on EF with all students as a matter of course; but it is also true that some kids need extra teaching and reinforcement on these issues. I also think that it's not that common for a school to have someone on staff who is skilled in addressing these challenges.

DeeDee

In my estimation, that is an entirely valid concern. We've run into this again and again over the years. Many people say that they know what "highly gifted" looks like, and most people probably have some notion of "prodigy" = "profoundly gifted" and envision really extraordinary prodigies featured in the media... but few people have direct experience with kids just below that prodigy level.


Honestly? I impose punishments for refusals like that. My JOB as DD's parent is to be just intrusive enough to set her back on the trail when she wanders. She's prone to wandering-- so it's MY job to check in on her progress whether she wants me to or not.

DH and I establish "this is unacceptable" and we are judge and jury there. The school's demands are almost irrelevant, because they are generally so mediocre/low. We do NOT want our DD 'sliding' into that kind of thinking about her own behavior and performance. She also has this weird disconnect between her effort and the results, in part because of that school-based rubric which often finds mediocre work "just fine," and allows multiple revisions/retakes of things. We only permit that when we feel that she has put forth some effort to do well... the first time around.

That said, when we tell her "this is unacceptable" for some reason, we DO seek her input into what to DO about the problem, and frequently into "what happened here to cause this outcome?"

That part of things is where buy-in has to happen, we've found. She will refuse to implement MY plan or her dad's.


For example-- I showed her how to use the Cornell method for notetaking, showed her a few other ways to take notes, and then told her that she could CHOOSE any method that seemed to work for her-- or use a variety of methods in different subjects, whatever. But-- that she HAD to be taking written notes in her class notebooks, and that I would spot check them. If she refuses to show me her notes, I make her take new ones. No muss, no fuss... but I'm not going to allow her to decide whether or not she can "self-regulate" there without making her prove it to me. This is the second step in our scaffolding for that behavior. Certain kinds of free time/leisure activities are dependent upon compliance with my directives re: study skills training.

I also nag her to enter events/activities into her calendar. I don't do it for her-- but I do insist that SHE do it.

Are you having to follow her around to verify that she's doing what she should? I am, honestly, just very tired. I'm working two p-t jobs, my dh is gone all the time and working weird hours when he is here so he goes to sleep before kids even start homework and leaves at 3 a.m, we have pets, a house, and I am juggling the schedules of six other people at my primary job to make sure that I don't put anyone into overtime.

If I tell dd that she cannot watch TV or needs to practice cello or take notes or whatever, if I don't actually stay in the same room as her and verify that she is doing or not doing what I told her, it doesn't happen. I am just feeling so wiped out that I don't have the emotional energy to nag her or spend all of my time in the same room as her monitoring that she is doing what she should be.

I'm really not trying to be lazy and realize that parenting involves more than just telling a kid to do something and expecting that it will happen. I totally attachment parented when they were little. I am just done and need her to pick some of it up and she is just pushing the limits and asking more of me than I have to give right now.

Oh wow. I totally understand.

Totally get that. And it makes the tired worse, IMO, when the person you're parenting doesn't have age-appropriate EF skills. Because you've been doing it all for them longer than most parents would have to. BTDT.

I would suggest two ideas:
--get help. Your own oxygen mask first. Can you get someone in there to help you manage things? This can be anything from dog-walker on up to a friendly college-age EF and homework mentor.

--having the frank conversation where you let DD know that something has to change, and it's going to take effort on her part. In a family, it's not fair when one person gets worn down if others could be picking up the slack. Now, she may not have all the skills to pick up the slack, yet, but you can make clear that something has to change (and pick one or two things to change that would really help).

It's hard with a teen-- but I think I would still lay out choices and have her choose the most preferable. For example: Does she want to revisit the medication issue (and the meds have come a long way; a good doctor can manage the weight and other issues) or see the educational therapist as a first line? Or whichever two choices you find most likely to work for your family. Point being, what you have going isn't working, and maybe being part of the solution would help her buy in?

(I would also ask whether she may be clinically depressed.)

Hang in there,
DeeDee

Cricket it's such a hard place to be, I know just how tired and stressed you are.

With the reading issues, I am wondering if its more an irlen /scoptic sensitivity issue? I know very little about this but my understanding is that while colored glasses don't help most dyslexics (whose problems are more auditory/phonetic/phonemic) that for the percentage that do have these issues they make a huge difference.

I also agree it sounds like you need a fresh evaluation - but with a wrll behaved, highly gifted girl, who isn't failing obviously, you're going to have to find just the right person for it not to be a wildly frustrating waste of money. There isn't anyone where I live that's for sure (not that this I relevant to you).

Me, too.

And yes, my DD pushes the same boundaries-- frequently.

It wasn't until one parent (my DH) became completely disabled for a period of several months last year that she was sort of shocked into really putting forth any effort to do the right things even when I'm not watching over her. I totally lost it with her one afternoon when she had spent the day playing flash games instead of writing up an essay-- while I spent time dreadfully worried and discussing neurosurgical options and potential risks.

I told her in no uncertain terms that she was making my life HARDER than it needed to be, and I couldn't take it any more. She owed me better. I couldn't take care of my OTHER responsibilities if I had to be sheepdogging HER.

(Yes, I know-- probably not fair to dump that on a 12yo, PG or not. But that kind of filial duty and responsibility doesn't seem to have done the children of yesteryear so much harm, I figure...)

I guess that the major problems are erratic grades (there have been points where they drop very low and she gets them back up with a lot of support from me and second chances from teachers; I can't do this forever & her teachers won't always be so nice. This is in classes like PE too so it isn't just challenging stuff; she's blown memorization tests on things like health in PE), major issues with paying attention to detail which leads to missed questions on tests, not turning in homework (it doesn't count in middle school toward grades but it will on high school), and poor study skills.

While she may be getting by okay with all of this in middle school, I am pretty sure that these issues will be larger problems in high school. Dh described the same memory issues that dd has in college himself (and still), so they weren't outgrown in his instance.

FWIW, I'm as confident as I can be that she isn't clinically depressed. She is rather unmotivated however and comes across as seriously lazy.

Have you seen the thread 'Neurofeedback for ADD - week 2 and hopeful'?

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/134078/5.html

There are some posts there with positive experiences re. ADD-neurofeedback.

Also note the AAP evidence-based interventions chart link.

These all sound so much like my dd9 who has an significant weakness relative to her other strengths that impacts her ability to read - she's not dyslexic (and scores really high on phonemics-related type tests)... but she has an issue with relating sound-to-symbols... anyway, not saying that your dd has the same challenge at all, but the notes about suspected dyslexia etc combined with the paragraph above make me wonder if an eval with a reading specialist might be helpful (these are usually *much* less expensive than neuropsych evals - my dd has had 2, both cost us around $250, included a ton of different skill-specific reading tests, and gave us very specific information about what kind of program would be helpful to bolster up the weak skill set.

Another thing you might ask about (if you haven't already) is just a one-hour update with your neuropsych for just *you* - where you bring in a list of what's happening now and the concerns/questions you have, and pick the np's brain over what might be going on based on the previous eval. We've done that for our ds13 when new issues have come up and it's been helpful.

Re the forgetting to turn in homework, ds13 used to have THE toughest time with this - he was very conscientious about completing all his homework and doing it well, we both verified that it went into his backpack every night to be turned in the next day and then poof! It disappeared forever before it reached the teacher's in box. I am still not sure *what* the issue was - but think it was a combination of him just not being able to remember more than one-two things at a time in a busy moment (and at the time he was losing his homework there was a lot of busy-ness in his classroom - he was still in 5th grade, supposed to turn in the homework in a basket in the morning, as he came in, also supposed to put away everything in his cubby, get out his morning journal, and complete a writing or math prompt from the board. That was at least one too many things for him to remember independently with his level of EF skills. The next year was his first year of middle school and with different teachers and he still lost homework in all but one class - and in that class, the teacher assigned something every day, had the assignment always written on the board (she kept them up all week), and she also had a system of sending home a notice for parents to sign if the day's homework wasn't turned in. That extremely consistent system that never varied helped him figure out how to turn in his homework to her - which he was able to do well - and eventually helped him improve in other classes that were not following a rigid structure. The other thing that has helped him with organizational skills during middle school is me staying on top of it *with* him. It's still his responsibility, but for the entire first year of middle school, every day when I picked him up I asked him to go through his entire day with me, tell me what he did in each class and what his homework for that class was (if any). I also checked his locker with him every day for the first semester to be sure he was bringing home all the books etc he needed to do his homework. He didn't particularly like it, and his teachers thought it was excessive of me as a parent to do that... but the repetition worked and by the end of the year he was remembering to bring home all his books and he was consistently turning in his homework and was overall just more aware of what he needed to do. We still go through his day at the end of each day (I actually make my non-challenged kids do this too - I like hearing about their days :)), but I no longer check his backpack in the mornings to be sure he has everything and I no longer have to do the locker check because he remembers to double-check and bring home what he needs. He does occasionally slip on turning in homework, and it's helped that at his school the teachers are required to send around progress reports that list missing assignments at least once a month - this way if I see he's missing assignments he has a chance to make them up plus I can temporarily step up the mom-supervising for awhile until he gets back on track. I realize this is way more "being involved" than most parents do at this age, but it's support he needs now for weak EF skills which, from everything I've read online re other parents of kids who've been through this, will help reinforce and build the skills so that they will eventually become automatic enough for him that he can be independent. I got the idea originally from reading about a mom who had hired a college student to pick up her child after school and do those same things - go through his list of classes, list out the homework assignments with him, and do the locker check. In her case, the college student picked her son up and did this for 2-3 years during early high school, but by his senior year he was independently doing all of it and no longer needed the extra help. But that's another potentially not-terribly expensive option for helping out when you've got so many things on your plate already.

I hope it doesn't sound like I've actually got answers or anything -just trying to throw out some ideas. I think all of us who are 2e parents here can empathize with what a tough situation this is - especially when you're parenting a teen and trying to figure out whether a behavior is due to 2e-ness or due to being, well, a teen.

Hang in there!

polarbear

Polarbear, what is a reading specialist & how do you find one?

Regarding checking back in with the last neuropsych who tested dd, unfortunately that isn't an option b/c she was very unhelpful. She wrote into her report comparisons to our other dd (she had asked for family history), stated that dd's needs weren't that atypical despite numerous ceiling scores on IQ & said that dd shouldn't be placed in GT classes b/c she doesn't like to stand out, stated that there were no LDs despite things like first quartile scores on reading speed on the GORT and all other parts of that test being in the 4th quartile as well as wildly varied scores throughout all other tests, and stated that all problems were due to parental pressure.

Grrr. Parental advocacy is not the same as parental pressure.

Cricket2, the reading specialists we've consulted with are simply that - people with training related to reading skills who diagnose and treat reading challenges. We've found the people we've worked with through referrals from other professionals we've worked with - neuropsych, pediatrician, SLP. I know that each of the three reading specialists we've worked with has some type of credentials, but I can't for the life of me remember what they are at the moment -I'll look them up tomorrow and let you know. I'm fairly certain they are all listed at the website for the international dyslexia association - can't remember the name of that group either at the moment!

pbear

ps -argh re your neuropsych experience - that's awful!!!

Apparently we can get insurance to pay for a few meetings with the psych the school recommended as long as it is couched as counseling not assessment so we've gone ahead and set up a first meeting with him to see what, if anything, he can do for her. I'm going to give him copies of all old assessments and see if that is enough to get going.

I also have a free first consult set up for just me with the educational therapist to go over the assessments we already have, what more she can assess, and what, if anything, she could do in a matter of about six hour long sessions with dd since that's all we can afford.

Cricket, I am just wondering if your daughter has started with the "educational therapist" and how that is going?