Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research ? statistical info regarding depression ?

Thanks everyone for the discussion. It is both comforting to hear that other people have experienced and dealt with bullying, and simultaneously rather depressing to hear how pervasive it is.

I haven't learned how to reply by quoting other posts yet, but Neato, your sentence below really hit the spot!

"In theory I prefer to take the high road everytime. In reality; have you ever hiked down that road? Holy cow, you can go for miles and days without every seeing another living soul."

I think I going to have to print that out and paste it over my computer. LOL!

Lorel: We are currently trying to remodel our basement ourselves, and have sunk some money into our current location. Otherwise I would move in a heartbeat. I still keep one eye on the real estate ads, though. I just can't see us putting our house on the market with half-built walls and dangling electrical outlets. (grin). But we may consider it in the future. It is a shame since I really love this house. My evil side has considered printing out some wonderfully enticing ads for houses for sale in our neighborhood and sticking them in my neighbor's mailbox, though!

Austin: Could you give me more info on some of these classes? I have been reluctant to go the Tae Kwon Do type route for fear of encouraging my DS8 to take matters physically. But I like your mention of the "uselessness of violence". Could you explain MMA?

We just started taking our DS8 to counselor who specializes in gifted kids. He really loves it and asks constantly when we are going back. (He even invited her over to dinner so that afterwards he could show her his lego creations!) She got him to start talking to her by building a lego creation for her. He built a "protector" for her. So he is definitely internalizing some of these problems. Her advice, so far (after two sessions), is to find other kids to play with away from this group... parks, pool, camps. So we will try that for a while. We are also reading a couple of kid's books that deal with the subject... "Speak Up and Get Along" by Scott Cooper and "Bullies are a Pain in the Brain" by Trevor Romain.

The counselor sounds helpful. I hope so!

Ebeth,

It sounds like he has good instincts.

He is going to have to learn how to defend himself. Today its the neighborhood sociopath-in-waiting. Tomorrow its the VP of Operations who is getting divorced who he has just pissed off with bad news. He has to develop his own code of conduct and learn to manage people as they are, not as he wishes them to be.

I had some of the same issues your son did at his age. The only way I worked through them was to stand up to the bullies by fighting them physically on a legitimate basis. What I did to deal with them was on the advice of an older adult male. It was very specific and I won't go into it here, but it worked. He should get the same advice from someone who will support him.

I know that some intellectually gifted people are turned off by the cult of the body and violence. But its a fact that some people cannot be reasoned with and nor can they be avoided. What will you do?

My personal philosophy is that there is a boundary to behaviors and words. Once someone crosses that boundary, then my interaction with with them is no longer governed by reason and discussion, but by force or lies and its legitimate to use both to rid myself of their presence or at least control them. In fact, its the only moral thing to do.

In your son's case, he needs to do some politicking and pick the kids off from the bully by spending time with each one one-on-one such that information and things are shared without the bully controlling the flow. He needs to pick one as a friend and then they go do something together. And then do it with another. If its not an intellectual thing, then it can be something as simple as putt-putt golf or videogames in your house and sleepovers. You can facilitate this by working with the parents and developing your own rappor. At some point he can convert the bully to his friend - but he may just need to control him by manipulating him either with words or fear since it sounds like the bully is also a liar and may just be a sociopath.

As for MMA - the problem with most martial arts is that they are Decadent - mumbo jumbo. 99% of what they teach has ZERO to do with actually winning a fight. MMA means Mixed Martial Arts. It takes what works from all the disciplines and then tests this fusion in an actual public fight. MMA stresses the fight continuum - the first few seconds and the conditioning aspect as well.

Here is a link. I would email Marc Denny ( he is the top dog ) a short synopsis of your situation and ask for an instructor or mentor in your area. Then go see him or her. Marc is a HIGHLY respected MMA instructor and writer. He is also a first rate intellectual - no doubt GT - and an Attorney. He is also very humble and accessible.

http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/instructors_dbmaainstructors.html

I would add that by learning from a real fighter, he will see that the actual fight is just the last 1% of the conflict. How he projects himself, how he talks, how he stands determines if he is ever in a fight. It will also give him an internal compass - he will know he can take anyone in the room so what is the point even giving this creep the time of day. He also learns from getting hurt in training that fighting has consquences and he will come to respect his trainer such that he will never lose that respect by fighting for fighting's sake or using his skills to inflict unnecessary pain.

The only other thing I would add is that I do not allow strikes to my head in practice or otherwise because my mind is my most prized possession. I don't head the ball in soccer and always avoided head on hits in football. Lots of studies have shown that repeated hits in all sports really hurts the brain!!!

Not just 'intellectually gifted', but I do agree that some people can not be reasoned with, nor can they be avoided.
The reason most parents have their children take training in martial arts is to develop self control and confidence. That will get a child through 99%(my guessitmate) of bullying issues.

I don't agree with a large part of your post, but it's your perception based on your experience.

I'm with you, OHG.

I think self-confidence is mostly what keeps a kid from being bullied. For some kids, the knowledge that they could fight if they had to is what gives them that confidence. Others don't need that.

I never thought I would have to physically fight, and I never moved in that direction. I had a different kind of confidence. The fact that I didn't care if I was popular or not was a great source of strength and courage, since it meant I would not go with the mob. (And ironically, it meant that I was generally pretty well-liked and well-respected.) I had a very strong sense of self, and bullies couldn't break that in me, so they just backed down. Every time. But I was never in a physical fight.

(Again, I do think some of this was because I was a girl. The rules are different, I know. But I think boys who have a strong sense of self tend not to have to fight either. A strong self-confidence affects the situation the same way, regardless of gender, I think.)

For a kid who doesn't have that strong sense of self, I do think that Austin's idea of befriending the hangers-on is a good idea. Finding people on the outskirts of the group--not those in the center of the gang, but the ones trying hard to fit in or the ones who are similarly alone--is a good plan for cultivating pockets of resistance to the bully. Bullies target the weak and alone. If a child is not weak or not alone--either one!--that child is a less attractive target.

Yep.

The VP should be ashamed of having a kid do HIS job.

You can seek to be a natural leader by developing direct relationships with everyone in the group. I think that is what Ebeth's son wants to do, but he just needs some instruction on what works and what is not acceptable. Most bullies can be countered by being their friend. That should be his eventual goal, assuming the bully is not a sociopath. It should not be a zero-sum game.

But a common mistake that many kids make is by trying to be friends with the central figure in the group right off the bat. I think that's what ebeth's son is doing wrong. This approach rarely works. It gives the bully too much power and opens a kid up for ridicule.

Better to aim for befriending the peripheral kids in the group, the ones with less power and the ones more likely to be open to friendship. The more marginal the kids, the more open they are likely to be to friendship. Then, with luck and a little confidence, these friendships can open a door to friendship--or at least peaceful co-existence--with the group leader.

I love that so many people are throwing out ideas to help E-beth and her family. The more ideas the better.
Well, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I've always been more effective in solving a problem when I've been able to draw from a lot of info and cherry pick what would would work best for the given situation.

I am definately a high road person, after all people act like jerks all the time but the only one I have to look at everyday for the rest of my life, is me, in the mirror!
I'm a well adjusted, happy, intelligent, gregarious person with a lot to be grateful for, so I figure it's my responsibility to turn the other cheek when someone is making trouble and there are plenty of ways to stop that behavior if you have to without getting your hands dirty.
BUT,(and I have a very BIG BUT-humor alert-) there have been several occasions when someone has just kept coming at me no matter how many times I had gently manuevered around them. In fact, the more I was able to manuever around them, the more incenced they became until it became clear that it was just not going to let up. I mean at a point someone makes it clear that it's either them or you. Well as much as I hate to admit it, I value myself, so given that ultimatum, it's going to be them; everytime.

Maybe I will mellow out in my old age..........

I actually think Austin's advice is pure genius. But I'm concerned that a nine year old doesn't have the life experience to pull it off. Austin, could you really have come up with that when you were nine? I'm not trying to be antagonistic.
I seem to be someone that people sense should not be trifled with, but I'm 39 years old. There were many learning experiences along the way that got me to where I am. I sure wouldn't have been able to pull-off that level of sophisticated manipulation when I was nine, even if I had an instruction manual!

But let's keep throwing ideas out there for E-beth's DS. It's clear the bullying has to stop somehow.

And I love the counselor. I'm going to guess that she will be extremely helpful to DS in learning how to deal with bullying.

How hard is it? Does it have to be conscious?

I loved football/soccer when I was in school. I made lots of friends on the field that otherwise I would not have. These friends followed me back into the classrooms and playgrounds. At a new school, I always showed up for the pick-up games, got picked last, but proved myself. After a while I was 2d/3rd pick most of the time.

Same thing would occur at summer camps, scout camps, etc. The first two or three days would be rough as the bullies tried to use me as a whipping boy - probably because I would go off and read during non-programmed moments - I would plop down and read where ever I could. Then sports would start up and the need to win would arise and I'd be accepted.

What was I doing?

The trick is to find the common interests that join kids together. Videogames are big one today. Sports are another. Movies. You name it.

a GT kid can be motivated to analyze people and how they interact just as they would do for any subject. There are lots of books on Social Intelligence. Once a kid knows how to start up small talk, then he can interview the peer to see what they have in common.