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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 22
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[quote=Dandy] Personally, I've been wondering if a HG+ kid can be consistently cognitively challenged in a school environment. The material just isn't that hard ( for a HG+ kid). By cognitive challenge, I mean stuff that's hard to understand, not just lots of homework. Increasing the volume of the workload doesn't make the material harder to understand. For many or most HG+ kids who are paying even a bit of attention, most everything makes sense on the first pass. I'm not saying they absorb the information completely, just that the ideas make sense. In that situation, all that's required is a bit of cramming during lunch or on the bus or while watching TV or whatever. Presto! Another good grade. Suddenly, a kid meets something that doesn't make sense on the first pass. Now a bona fide cognitive challenge may exist, but it's isolated and the child has no idea how to approach it. Complicating the problem, he has only his limited experience to interpret what's going on. If geometry is the only class that's ever posed a problem for your son,he may decide that he's reached a limit. In this situation, it's natural to misinterpret what's going on (Example: "Those other kids are doing better than I am in Geometry, so they must be smarter than me."). Remember that based on his lifetime experience, getting a good grade results from being smart. Yeah, I know he's got a B, but it's from homework and he sees how the other students are doing on tests. This is the part where thinking in a new way comes in. A student who always gets the basic idea on the first pass may have no concept that it's even possible to look at something that's completely baffling and figure it out by simply staring at it and thinking. This is very different from the idea of "studying," which, to a HG+ kid, can mean "cram it in" or "do the worksheets as quickly as possible." There's a subtle difference between studying and thinking in a new way, but it's a savage one. Until a person actually groks the idea of "stare and think in order to understand," he'll be hindered by misconceptions about his abilities. And yet, once he gets the idea, he'll have made a huge cognitive leap. See? Subtle, but savage.* Schools do not teach this idea to HG+ kids. *With thanks to Truman Capote for this phrasing. He was describing the difference between writing that is merely very good and writing that is true art. See Music for Chameleons. This is so true! They are so used to getting things the first time they hear it they just don't know how to go about figuring it out. My son gets very frustrated and he won't let us help him. Partly because he thinks he knows everything and he doesn't need help. Trust me I am working on this with him as well. I am very glad that we accelerated him this year to 4th grade. He still really doesn't need to work hard at anything. After being put in a Math Plus class (for gitfted students) 1/2 through he is being challenged a little bit more. There have been just a couple problems that he had to look at longer. He just doesn't do well. As much as I wanted him to be challenged so he doesn't become lazy and he learns how to work for something early on he really has trouble with it. In the end he ends up leaving to calm down and coming back to it later. At that point he still won't let us help him but he normally has figured it out by then. He expects to know it right away. I hope he figures out a way soon to learn how to learn and deal with the things that don't make sense the first time. He is still young so I hope we made the change early enough. I would love to hear suggestions on how to teach a child to learn or see things differently when they are used to knowing things very easily. If anyone out there has ideas I would love to hear them!! Regarding Geometry... This was the only Math class I struggled with. I do think it is different kind of thinking and you are either good at it or not. Just my take. I got through the class never really learning it. However ended up fine with everything else. It will be intersting to see how my son does with it.
DS9 Gifted / ADHD
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In both Algebra & Geometry, his teachers said he participated in classroom discussions while always demonstrating an understanding at a level that left neither teacher concerned.
When asked about his favorite subjects, Geometry is always right up there with concert band. It was the same with Algebra last year. He's moved beyond the visceral hatred he had for the subject when he was quasi-homeschooled for the subject for 5th, 6th & 7th grades.
Part of me thinks I'm over-reacting, but the rational me is fearful that, placated with easy As, he'll not develop the discipline required for success in STEM. Admittedly, there's a bit of reflection, as I vividly recall bolting from my first college Calculus course, realizing that I had absolutely no idea how to work that hard.
How do you look a kid with a 4.0 and say, "I think you need to work harder!"?
Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz
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Joined: Jul 2012
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I think there are two problems here. One is the concept of challenge at school. The other is what I call thinking in a new way as distinct from "studying." The thinking in a new way is using the metacognitive skills that schools seem to hope kids will accidentally learn. These skills advance under challenge and quite slowly for most kids (half the reason there are 12 years of math, imho), but can be taught directly. It may also be a case where mixed ability group problem solving could benefit HG kids.
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Joined: Aug 2008
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For many or most HG+ kids who are paying even a bit of attention, most everything makes sense on the first pass. I'm not saying they absorb the information completely, just that the ideas make sense. I think this is what his math teachers are seeing. When I discuss particular problems, I see it too: he understands the material. And he's not shy about saying when he's unclear on a concept. But getting him to move from "clarity in understanding" to "accuracy in execution" has me stumped. The last formal instruction he had for math was in 3rd grade, and he finished all the year's work in the first quarter. He used EPGY & ALEKS for 4th, 5th, 6th & pre-Algebra. He clearly missed out on the classroom & teacher aspects -- especially the required performance on testing. Both ALEKS & EPGY utilize "second chances" throughout, so he always had an extra shot if his wild first serve didn't score. He never had a teacher TEACH him how to attack problem solving. He never had to "show his work" until Algebra. Suddenly, a kid meets something that doesn't make sense on the first pass. Now a bona fide cognitive challenge may exist, but it's isolated and the child has no idea how to approach it. Complicating the problem, he has only his limited experience to interpret what's going on. If geometry is the only class that's ever posed a problem for your son,he may decide that he's reached a limit. In this situation, it's natural to misinterpret what's going on (Example: "Those other kids are doing better than I am in Geometry, so they must be smarter than me."). Remember that based on his lifetime experience, getting a good grade results from being smart. Yeah, I know he's got a B, but it's from homework and he sees how the other students are doing on tests. This is the part where thinking in a new way comes in. A student who always gets the basic idea on the first pass may have no concept that it's even possible to look at something that's completely baffling and figure it out by simply staring at it and thinking. Yup -- he particularly lacks the persistence when faced with problem-solving. I would love to place him in a classroom version of AOPS... I swear that would help him a ton. No make-believe As for homework masking an underlying deficiency. I appreciate all the comments on this issue. It seems so minor in the grand scheme of things, but I feel if he can just come down with a slight case of perfectionism, he'd be much better off! Dandy
Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,297
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How do you look a kid with a 4.0 and say, "I think you need to work harder!"? Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way. Maybe he needs to work better. If he understands everything so well, why is he getting Cs on quizzes and tests? And why do his As on his homework result from doing the assignments but not necessarily getting the answers right? (This question may not be a simple one.) What do you know about the quality of teaching and the quality of his textbook? Have you looked closely at his book? Is it a classical book (e.g. author = Richard Brown, but there are others), where each section has a lot of explanatory text and lots of problems of increasing difficulty? Or is it a new book with constant distractions like lots of LOUD COLOR GRAPHICS and fluffy examples about Geometry in Real Life! and little text? What do the homework assignments and exams look like? Do the kids have to write proofs from scratch or fill in blanks in a partially completed proof? Do things like the word "postulate" count for points, as in "Side-Angle-Side" is an incorrect answer but "Side-Angle-Side postulate" is correct? My very mathy son got a C on an exam last year because of multiple point losses due to this kind of thing. He should have scored 100. If kids are writing proofs from scratch and the difficulty of problems in each section increases, it sounds to me like your son doesn't understand the material, in spite of what the teacher said (teachers can be wrong). If he's getting a C because "SAS" is wrong and "Side-Angle-Side postulate" is correct, the entire problem is, IMO, moot because he's not being taught real geometry anyway, and learning how to score high on fluff is pointless (this is why my son is homeschooling this year). A lot of kids end up in remedial math during their first year of college. IMO, part of the problem is that they got As and Bs in marshmallow math courses starting way back in grade school, and reasonably believe that they can do math. Yet colleges are still unforgiving this regard, and I suspect that the students are at a loss to understand how they could bomb a placement test when they did so well for all those years.
Last edited by Val; 02/14/13 12:24 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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I loved geometry, but I suppose it played right into my areas of strength. Compared to other maths, it was long on concepts and formal logic, and short on computations. That's me. Geometry was the only math class I truly enjoyed the whole way through.
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 40
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This is the part where thinking in a new way comes in. A student who always gets the basic idea on the first pass may have no concept that it's even possible to look at something that's completely baffling and figure it out by simply staring at it and thinking. This is very different from the idea of "studying," which, to a HG+ kid, can mean "cram it in" or "do the worksheets as quickly as possible." There's a subtle difference between studying and thinking in a new way, but it's a savage one. Until a person actually groks the idea of "stare and think in order to understand," he'll be hindered by misconceptions about his abilities. And yet, once he gets the idea, he'll have made a huge cognitive leap. See? Subtle, but savage.* I sometimes tell my DD5 "if you focus and try hard, you become smarter and difficult problems become easier."
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I sat down with him during the first quarter and went line-by-line through the tests. His errors were generally careless. He knew the material & how to solve a particular problem... he just made sloppy and/or careless errors (same thing?) at every turn. He hadn't come to proofs yet, so no clue there.
It was near the end of the first quarter that I first raised my concerns with the teacher and was told that DS is doing fine; accuracy will come with maturity; he's understanding everything just fine -- DON'T WORRY! And I did pretty good about not worrying until now as we are in the middle of the 3rd quarter and I'm not seeing any improvement.
The geometry text is nearly devoid of unnecessary splashy graphics. Don't remember the text, but I recall admiring how clean the text appeared. (His Algebra, in contrast, was filled with all the colorful claptrap you mentioned.)
I had no idea until recently that his homework was not graded for accuracy. The few times I saw <100% on a homework assignment & reviewed the errors, it looked as though the teacher was going through the problems. Now, however, I understand that the teacher is looking for all the required steps, with little regard to the final answer. I'm guessing my son locked onto this early on. He rarely gets less than 100% on homework, which, to me , means that he was able to make it look like he knew what he was doing. Or something to that effect.
Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz
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Joined: Aug 2008
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A lot of kids end up in remedial math during their first year of college. IMO, part of the problem is that they got As and Bs in marshmallow math courses starting way back in grade school, and reasonably believe that they can do math. Yet colleges are still unforgiving this regard, and I suspect that the students are at a loss to understand how they could bomb a placement test when they did so well for all those years. This is precisely what I hope to avoid. That is, of course, assuming he does well enough on his SAT math section to get into college!
Being offended is a natural consequence of leaving the house. - Fran Lebowitz
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Joined: Oct 2011
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I sat down with him during the first quarter and went line-by-line through the tests. His errors were generally careless. He knew the material & how to solve a particular problem... he just made sloppy and/or careless errors (same thing?) at every turn. He hadn't come to proofs yet, so no clue there.
It was near the end of the first quarter that I first raised my concerns with the teacher and was told that DS is doing fine; accuracy will come with maturity; he's understanding everything just fine -- DON'T WORRY! And I did pretty good about not worrying until now as we are in the middle of the 3rd quarter and I'm not seeing any improvement. I'd say you're right to be concerned, and your teacher is wrong for not being concerned. If he's demonstrating mastery of the concepts, great, but if he's doing so and getting the wrong answers anyway, he needs to know that, and be held accountable. If not, he never learns anything from the mistakes, keeps on making the same ones, never learns how to check his answers, and eventually runs into a situation in which results matter (SAT score, college class, engineering project), and can't cope. Disaster results. I tell my DD8 that mistakes are the best teachers.
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