Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "Lazy" thinking?

Hi Dude, I agree. I overstated my point, both are important. It's just that it's easy to praise the work product. I have a MS math club I run (Funny thing is I have poor math skills), and every year I have students that push for the problems to be easy. (For many this is the first time they have been challenged in math). So I get on my soap box, and ask them, if I give you simple addition problems that you most likely will all get 100% on would that be fun. I explained it is through solving a difficult problem (Each person’s difficulty level varies) that we grow and also that we have fun. It’s overcoming a task that develops strength in a subject as well as confidence in your ability to step into what you don't know and work to find a solution. I agree with HowlerKarma that the outside world (Schools, relatives, etc...) will praise the results more, I just try to control what I can. ColinsMum, I find the most difficult thing for me is trying to develop intrinsic motivation, it’s hard to know when parental motivation (praise, bribes, and threats) should be less and their own motivation should kick in. My son is 10 and although he is motivated he still needs help with consistency and direction. I am a big fan of natural consequences for his own actions, but I tend to fail with this. I still follow up to see if he has completed his work, I still help on projects, and my dw still bails him out if he falls behind on writing assignment. I know that allowing him to fail will be a better teacher, but as a parent I don't know where I should let him fall, and where I should help him stand.

I think you get at intrinsic motivation through modelling. I try to remind myself to be outspoken in reactions to things I encounter. Like "That was too easy, wasn't much fun." or "Ooh that's a good problem." or "I will defeat the evil crosssword puzzle writer, muahaha."

It seems there is a catch-22 and mixed message as the other day when I asked DS7 if he had fun at school that day and he said: "Naah, everything was too easy." So, we want to reward effort, but most of us have our kids spending 50-100% of a 6-7 hour day without opportunities to put in meaningful effort.

And then if I only praise an area that requires effort (in our case writing,) then what's the message? And wait, if I praise the effort and perseverence it takes to grind through a math sheet of over-easy problems is it interpreted as support for less mental work or support for the perseverence or a shout out for conformity or??? Eghads.

I agree that, ultimately, that's where we want them to be. There's a maturity component in that, though, because they need to know what an achievement or a job well done looks like, and that takes time and experience to learn. We can help by providing feedback, which includes praise... which is especially important with gifted kids, where perfectionism and/or unrealistic expectations can be a major issue.

I'm sure we can all recount situations where our children were intrinsically proud of creating a giant mess or engaging in a dangerous behavior.

Ok, have a bit more time now.

Yes, thanks too from me Zen Scanner for the link.

I find I have never found a balance I am quite comfortable with re the praise thing and perhaps my definitions are wonky and your responses have made me think about what we do and don't do.

We don't praise smart as in "wow, you're so smart" or "oh, you're wonderful because you're in the streamed class at school" (sorry, they are terrible examples but hopefully they make my point!)

But we do praise things like figuring something out for your self, using a clever strategy when playing a game, coming out with something really funny.

We also praise achievement where it is linked to effort - but we don't include references to being smart. "You did a great job on that story, I love x and y bits of it. I was impressed with the thought and work you put in to it".

What I don't praise are the across the board As she got in her last report which all showed her working 6-12 months ahead when she can do work significantly beyond that. In those cases I praise other things in her report - her attitude, interactions with her class mates etc and I will acknowledge the As but point out that its whether or not she was learning that matters.

I fundamentally do not expect 110% effort across all things. I think that way 7yo burn out lies. But persistent 90% - even 80% effort on even one area would be great!

Part of it as well I suspect is that other than reading, dd hasn't found her thing (well, and maybe reading is her thing and I should just back off). I was much the same. It was only toward the end of high school that I found my "thing". It is much harder to put in 100% when you're just not that fussed about the outcome. And dd isn't - when it comes to this stuff she is almost without extrinsic motivation. She's not at all fussed about grades, about being the top of the class etc. I could offer her a life time supply of chocolate or a million soft toys (two of her favorite things) and it wouldn't shift her level of effort (bribing has never worked on her ... sigh ...) Her intrinsic motivations seem to be very much about connection to others, relationships (not in a needing to be linked sense, but in a need to be connected to people, to get the stimulation off others, to share ideas). This is I suspect where books come in to it for her in a way that other 'academic' stuff doesn't.

So maybe I'm looking in the wrong places for effort. Maybe I'm looking for it in areas that the care factor just doesn't exist for her and given her out put is still high enough to see her get the marks she'll need to do whatever she wants I shouldn't worry about it so much ... That's the thought I often have and then it's always followed by "yes, but the problem isn't grades, it's that she's avoiding thinking".

And then I send myself off in a loop again!

Well, when you figure this one out, though... let me just get in line for the answer to it now, okay?

I'd love to know as well, because I also have a fairly difficult-to-motivate kid who likes to read, and... well, think/talk about whatever other interest-du-jour she happens to be onto that day. And not much more. Extrinsic motivators do NOT work, and there appears to be precious little intrinsic motivation at work, either.

We see occasional flashes of extraordinary effort, all right... but those are GENERALLY directly related to negative habits like formidable procrastination or even more overt self-handicapping. I've only been able to really discuss this with two people associated with the school-- and both of them were sort of... stunned... when they realized just how little of her ability they DO see on a regular basis. They certainly don't accommodate it or nurture it. She has never really taken a class that she couldn't learn 16 weeks' worth of material in under two weeks. Mostly, in under two DAYS. So when she chooses to do stuff like that... and still gets A grades...

NOT things we want her to feel "good" about. But they are challenges that she is choosing and engineering for herself, I suppose. Amidst all of this, we see occasional glimpses of her actual ability, which is frankly a little frightening in its scope and intensity. She really could do world-shattering things. If she cared enough to bother, basically. And mostly, she doesn't.


Ahhh, the quandary, there... do we praise her for the A in AP physics, when we KNOW that this was an 11th hour sprint and that she has been lazy about her approach all term long? It's still probably not her "best" effort. We, too, are pragmatic about "best" efforts ourselves, so "good enough" has a place in life, as does "individually determined challenge to one's self." Hard to know-- after all, she DID turn it on in dazzling fashion there right at the end... and she DOES have A-level understanding of the material now. Is it just an unconventional approach? Or is it maladaptive?

Well, if nothing else I take some comfort in your last post HowlerKarma I figure if someone who is so obviously committed to their kid and who knows their kid so well (from what I have seen in your other posts) hasn't cracked this, then I'm probably not missing something obvious!

Thanks again for everyone's input.