Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "Lazy" thinking?

I am curious about what to do with my dd7, in third grade. She is currently grade skipped and in a 'normal' public school, but one that caters well for gifted kids who "show what they can do". She's comfortably above the 99.9% and in a class with a number of kids with similar scores, though she'd previously been grade skipped so she's a little younger than most of them.

She is, as I have mentioned previously, not terribly motivated academically. This I get - I was much the same. Mostly this doesn't worry me - she's interested and passionate about ideas and stories and people so I have a sense of what's important to her. She enjoys school, has a group of friends and largely gets taken along for the ride academically with the other gifted kids and so is getting work above grade level.

What does worry me though is that she's kind of 'lazy' in her thinking (I would never use that word in talking about it with her, but it is probably the best description). She just wont even consider whether she knows how to do something unfamiliar and/or she'll often pump out the easiest most obvious answers in her school work. If an answer or a solution or some piece of understanding doesn't just pop in to her head, she just doesn't both with it. She had a maths assessment recently at school for placement and she said some of the questions has been really hard. "Like what" I asked. "Like 7 x ? = 56". I replied that she knew that. "Do I? Oh yeah, 8"

This happens all the time. Similarly she'll see something represented in an unfamiliar way and before she's even looked at it she'll determine she can't do it (this could be maths, grammar, projects, whatever). If I can actually persuade her to look at it (which can involved half an hour of cajoling, huffing - often from both of us by the end! - and, sometimes loss of privileges if it's something important) she will look at it, understand in a couple of moments and be on her way. Obviously I can't do this at school! It shows in the work she brings home and in her reports - which show her working a year or so ahead at school when in fact she is capable of working a number of years ahead...

It is not entirely unreasonable that the teacher has not discovered dd's capabilities, because she does often look for all intents and purposes like she doesn't understand more complex work. She will simply say "I don't understand what you mean" and, unsurprisingly they don't have half an hour to cajole her through to the point of actually looking at what they're asking for (and because they rarely see what she's capable of, I can see they think I'm mad to suggest they probe a bit deeper).

In terms out expectations of dd, we've always focussed on effort rather than outcomes, we talk about our own mistakes and point out how we've overcome them - I wonder if perhaps we've gone too far in that regard and she feels too much pressure to 'try', I don't know.

Any thoughts on how to deal with this? I'd like to say "hey, she's happy, get over it" - but I worry that it will become her general mode of thinking and approach to the world, the outcomes of which I don't see as terrible positive long term (not in a 'I don't want her to a garbage collector' kind of way, more in a 'I just don't want her to limit her choices so that if she wants to be a garbage collector it's a choice and not because it was the only option' kind of way)

Is this some kind of reverse perfectionism thing?

Hmm. Well, it sounds to ME like it isn't "perfectionism" exactly, but its evil fraternal twin, "fixed mindset" talking.

Does she feel happiest "knowing" or "learning?"

I'd ask her that and pay attention to her answer.

That's an interesting point. I have actually had that very conversation with her and she says learning. But I perhaps haven't delved deep enough in to whether that is just because she knows that's what I'd be looking for or whether that's really how she feels. She is certainly not a kid who feels she has to demonstrate what she knows - she's very much an under the radar kind of girl and has been since preschool (and has a group of friends in class who are highly competitive when she is not).

The psychologist who assessed her commented that while her processing speed was fine (though 98% rather than >99.9%), she found dd to be very reflective and that she required a lot of time to present answers that she (dd) felt adequately captured what she wanted to say. My gut is that these two factors - the social element and her reflectiveness - play a role in it too, in that she rarely has a chance to give a meaningful answer in class before things move on or the other girls have answered before she gets what she wants to say out. And so she's kind of stopped bothering to. That only occurs to me now as I type this.

My DS7 is similar. I think part of it is that he has never really had to try very hard. He almost always knows the answers and almost always before anyone else. I have been trying to give him more challenging tasks at home because I feel like he is not quite where he used to be academically. It is very frustrating because he just doesn't want to try hard. Maybe it is personality type? But he is a perfectionist though. ???

How do you go with the stuff you do at home Kazzle? I dip in and out of insisting she do some 'after schooling' on the basis she doesn't allow much challenge at school. On the one hand I want her to experience the satisfaction of giving something a go - and on the other hand, for us - because she really isn't very interested in anything other than books (which she inhales), I feel it is so parent led (and often involves extreme irritation on dd's part that she is being asked to do school type work out of school). Which doesn't seem productive or conducive to enjoying learning either. Sigh ...

We've tried all kinds of extracurricular stuff - music, martial arts, various sports etc all directed by her. But she looses interest and while she'll practice she does it so half heartedly she might as well not bother. To insist she do it properly results in a stand off that can be somewhat prolonged ... She'll do it eventually but by the end we're both so emotionally exhausted that I struggle to see the value in it (beyond gaining a deep understanding of the limits of each other's stubbornness!)

I make it sound like we're at constant logger heads - we're not at all, this is just an area where I feel so uncertain how much to push (and I have a little voice taunting me with 'hothousing parent' ringing in my ears) that I suspect my approach is too haphazard to be very effective!

DD10 is the same way. She used to actually start crying if she looked at something and didn't immediately understand every nuance about it. Now, she has a similar reaction to what you are seeing; "I don't know what you mean. I can't do it, etc etc etc."

It is only when the thing she is supposed to be learning looks interesting or seems to be necessary to get to what she wants does she put any effort into it at all. I think it has a lot to do with her rarely having to think much about school work, so not knowing that it is the norm for people to have to actually read the entire passage, or problem or whatever before knowing the answer.

I also think it is part of growing up. I see it all the time in my students, especially the ones who have never had a teacher/parent who wouldn't simply give them the answer if they said they didn't know. With time they realize that I won't give answers and they think about it and figure it out, but it seems to be a rather hard lesson to teach most kids, forget about those who rarely have to put much thought into school work.

Taking culpabiity away from the kid, and looking for what is missing, I believe the answer is metacognition.

In most school and education programs, there is such a content focus that there is an assumption that secondary skills will just automatically accrete through negative feedback.

I think many gifted kids need direct and formal learning related to metacognitive skills. When they automatically know how to solve a puzzle, add, understand words in context, the slowed down plodding path to solution rarely or never happens. When faced with questions of "show your work" or "how did you arrive at this", etc. they don't actually have the answers.

Here is a good backgrounder on it:
http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=205

Lack of challenge is probably a part of why she's disinterested in schoolwork and prone to laziness, because she isn't regularly being confronted with situations where she actually has to stop and think. I also suspect that part of the problem is she's 7, and in 3rd grade, because early education doesn't involve much thinking at all... it's mostly memorizing facts, and spitting them out later.

Another possible factor is something we discovered in our DD8, who we started homeschooling this year. In confronting our own DD's tendency to skip test questions, to guess wrongly when she knew the right answers, or when the answer was right in front of her, we found out that her public school teachers were basically incentivizing laziness by bribing the kids with extra recess if they finished tests early. Quality quickly took a back seat to speed.

Our DD8 is a lot like this also. It is almost like she has lost part of her "spark" and curiousity. We hear a lot more "I don't know" lately, where before she would at least give some sort of answer and whether right or wrong she was at least thinking about it.

We recently starting doing some brainteasers, anagrams, and perplexers at home (just for fun) with DD8 & DD7 in an attempt to get them thinking. This is family-time stuff and they have really found it to be fun and ask for it every night.

I'd be interested to know if others have this same "lazy" issue and what they have done to jump start their kiddo.

I strongly suspect HowlerKarma's right here, and the follow-up would be: ask her as openly as you can what she means by liking learning more than knowing. How does she feel when she's learning, and can she describe a specific time when she was learning, as illustration? I bet (ok, not much :-) that her picture of learning is more like drinking in information that is interesting and new than like struggling with a task she can't do at first but eventually manages.

One thing I do as systematically as I can is to emphasise that the most efficient learning is often happening when things are almost too hard, and that that's when you start off thinking they're too hard, and only find you can succeed by working hard. If you know immediately that you're going to be able to do a thing, it's typically a sign that you aren't going to learn much by doing it.

DS5 is incredibly "lazy". He won't write more than absolutely necessary, he actually shortened his name for this purpose, he won't answer more questions than specifically asked, and does not like to write down math problems to keep track of what he is doing and be able to check his work. He will often say that he can't do something if it is not immediately obvious to him.

This has me very worried. His school is using it as proof that he doesn't need anything more. I'm at a loss as how to deal with it and often find it becoming an issue between us because I get so frustrated with him.

I think that you are right to be concerned. Unfortunately I don't have much advice yet. I try to stop DS when he gets that attitude and work through the problems together but that still ends up being almost like giving him the answer.

I wish you the best of luck and will follow this post carefully.

I think part of it could simply be her age - all three of my kids (with varied levels of ability) went through similar things, and I've seen it happen with so many of my friends children in early elementary (especially with the emphasis on "show your work" that seems to be everywhere in our local early elementary schools). For my ds and my older dd, there was a significant spike in development of the "non-lazy" skills when they hit 6th grade - although work demands were going up in school at that point in time, I really think a lot of it had to do with a developmental phase they went through too.

I also remember when I had some worries about things like this when my oldest (ds) was in K-1, and his teacher (who had over 20 years experience with elementary school teaching) said that it had been her experience that these types of skills don't really start to emerge until around 3rd grade (for typical age non-grade skipped kids).

Best wishes,

polarbear

I'm still waiting for my 13yo to outgrow this particular phase, however. :[ Just noting that.

So, if you want to stick with the lazy label. I'd translate it to mental efficiency obsessed. It's an internal drive behind innovation and successful cognitive strategies and played out fully you end up with the deep learning and fast thinking we admire in our GT kids.

Since efficiency revolves around cost/benefit analysis, then one of the problems is that the independent thinker driven by internal wiring to seek efficient mental solutions is assessing the cost higher and the benefit lower than the adults in the situation are. So the external observer sees laziness and the internal observer sees waste.

One metacognitive strategy to slowdown and be careful is to consciously assign a probability to whether an answer is correct. Then if the probability isn't satisfying to mentally assess the time necessary to raise the probability to a successful level. Some people have an instinct for probabilities and the brain gets some interesting work at that; not certain if all kids would get this or how to instruct them if they don't.

A quick test when you hear an impulsive answer is to ask them what the percentage chance is that they are wrong. Likewise, if they say they don't know an answer, ask how long they think it would take to figure out.

I am not sure if this is of any use. I see it as how they value themselves. If you value yourself as smart then the only reason you do not do well is that you are not smart. If the praise you get and the validation you get from others is based upon being smart then that is how you see yourself. It is better to praise only effort, then they value hard work. For my DS10 math is easy and writing takes effort. I try to praise the effort more. It's difficult because in math he does very well. I push more difficult math that takes effort, and I try to find things that take him more effort to do well. I am hopeful that he learns it is only through effort that we do well, and that satisfaction with oneself is more when you overcome true obstacles.

The real problems are when an educational organization actively thwarts your efforts to do as Edwin (rightly, IMO) recommends. It's been our experience that THEY are the ones risk-averse, not us.

They've unfortunately also taught our DD13 to be risk averse, as well. Fixed mindset run amok. {sigh}

Thanks all so much for you ideas. I've only got a minute so I can't respond properly for now, though I will take a second to mention that, Edwin, I couldn't agree more - but we do absolutely only praise effort. One problem is, as HowlerKarma suggests, that she gets plenty of praise for being smart elsewhere. Though I do sometimes wonder if dh and I have gone over board praising effort and ignoring the smart bit and so she doesn't 'feel' smart when people tell her she is. Or something. Plan to have a more in depth chat about learning vs knowing too.

Thanks again.

Thank you for the link and information Zen Scanner, very helpful to me. My DD8 shows signs of this same issue, maybe it is an age appropriate response to not being challenged enough at school and learning the process. I am going to read this article thoroughly and implement some of the strategies and see if they help! Thank you OP for starting this topic.

But then if you only praise hard work, and the child does something amazing, but it felt easy to them, they see no value in it. If they have a talent or ability that comes naturally to them, they should be encouraged to exploit it, not avoid it.

Also, solving problems doesn't depend entirely on hard work... it also depends on one's faith in their ability to solve the problem if they keep working on it. Confidence and work ethic go hand in hand. Some of the hardest-working people in my company have very little confidence in their abilities, which cripples them in key situations, and the ones who rise to the challenge leave them behind.

So, we praise hard work, and we also praise being smart. We use a somewhat altered definition of "smart" though. It doesn't mean regurgitating facts. It means "figuring things out on your own" (which has an effort component), and it means "coming up with a new or interesting idea." In other words, "smart" isn't about knowledge acquired, it's about knowledge applied.

I actually think the problem with "praise for being smart" is the praise part, not the for being smart part. It's tricky, because praise is part of societally conventional interaction between parents and children, but I think it's worth remembering that what we're aiming for is their getting satisfaction out of an achievement or a job well done because it was a good thing to achieve/do for its own sake, not because an authority figure praised them. Therefore, I don't personally think praising effort is that much better than praising achievement - though sometimes checking that they understand the connection between the effort they put in and the result they achieved doesn't go amiss!

Hi Dude, I agree. I overstated my point, both are important. It's just that it's easy to praise the work product. I have a MS math club I run (Funny thing is I have poor math skills), and every year I have students that push for the problems to be easy. (For many this is the first time they have been challenged in math). So I get on my soap box, and ask them, if I give you simple addition problems that you most likely will all get 100% on would that be fun. I explained it is through solving a difficult problem (Each person’s difficulty level varies) that we grow and also that we have fun. It’s overcoming a task that develops strength in a subject as well as confidence in your ability to step into what you don't know and work to find a solution. I agree with HowlerKarma that the outside world (Schools, relatives, etc...) will praise the results more, I just try to control what I can. ColinsMum, I find the most difficult thing for me is trying to develop intrinsic motivation, it’s hard to know when parental motivation (praise, bribes, and threats) should be less and their own motivation should kick in. My son is 10 and although he is motivated he still needs help with consistency and direction. I am a big fan of natural consequences for his own actions, but I tend to fail with this. I still follow up to see if he has completed his work, I still help on projects, and my dw still bails him out if he falls behind on writing assignment. I know that allowing him to fail will be a better teacher, but as a parent I don't know where I should let him fall, and where I should help him stand.

I think you get at intrinsic motivation through modelling. I try to remind myself to be outspoken in reactions to things I encounter. Like "That was too easy, wasn't much fun." or "Ooh that's a good problem." or "I will defeat the evil crosssword puzzle writer, muahaha."

It seems there is a catch-22 and mixed message as the other day when I asked DS7 if he had fun at school that day and he said: "Naah, everything was too easy." So, we want to reward effort, but most of us have our kids spending 50-100% of a 6-7 hour day without opportunities to put in meaningful effort.

And then if I only praise an area that requires effort (in our case writing,) then what's the message? And wait, if I praise the effort and perseverence it takes to grind through a math sheet of over-easy problems is it interpreted as support for less mental work or support for the perseverence or a shout out for conformity or??? Eghads.

I agree that, ultimately, that's where we want them to be. There's a maturity component in that, though, because they need to know what an achievement or a job well done looks like, and that takes time and experience to learn. We can help by providing feedback, which includes praise... which is especially important with gifted kids, where perfectionism and/or unrealistic expectations can be a major issue.

I'm sure we can all recount situations where our children were intrinsically proud of creating a giant mess or engaging in a dangerous behavior.

Ok, have a bit more time now.

Yes, thanks too from me Zen Scanner for the link.

I find I have never found a balance I am quite comfortable with re the praise thing and perhaps my definitions are wonky and your responses have made me think about what we do and don't do.

We don't praise smart as in "wow, you're so smart" or "oh, you're wonderful because you're in the streamed class at school" (sorry, they are terrible examples but hopefully they make my point!)

But we do praise things like figuring something out for your self, using a clever strategy when playing a game, coming out with something really funny.

We also praise achievement where it is linked to effort - but we don't include references to being smart. "You did a great job on that story, I love x and y bits of it. I was impressed with the thought and work you put in to it".

What I don't praise are the across the board As she got in her last report which all showed her working 6-12 months ahead when she can do work significantly beyond that. In those cases I praise other things in her report - her attitude, interactions with her class mates etc and I will acknowledge the As but point out that its whether or not she was learning that matters.

I fundamentally do not expect 110% effort across all things. I think that way 7yo burn out lies. But persistent 90% - even 80% effort on even one area would be great!

Part of it as well I suspect is that other than reading, dd hasn't found her thing (well, and maybe reading is her thing and I should just back off). I was much the same. It was only toward the end of high school that I found my "thing". It is much harder to put in 100% when you're just not that fussed about the outcome. And dd isn't - when it comes to this stuff she is almost without extrinsic motivation. She's not at all fussed about grades, about being the top of the class etc. I could offer her a life time supply of chocolate or a million soft toys (two of her favorite things) and it wouldn't shift her level of effort (bribing has never worked on her ... sigh ...) Her intrinsic motivations seem to be very much about connection to others, relationships (not in a needing to be linked sense, but in a need to be connected to people, to get the stimulation off others, to share ideas). This is I suspect where books come in to it for her in a way that other 'academic' stuff doesn't.

So maybe I'm looking in the wrong places for effort. Maybe I'm looking for it in areas that the care factor just doesn't exist for her and given her out put is still high enough to see her get the marks she'll need to do whatever she wants I shouldn't worry about it so much ... That's the thought I often have and then it's always followed by "yes, but the problem isn't grades, it's that she's avoiding thinking".

And then I send myself off in a loop again!

Well, when you figure this one out, though... let me just get in line for the answer to it now, okay?

I'd love to know as well, because I also have a fairly difficult-to-motivate kid who likes to read, and... well, think/talk about whatever other interest-du-jour she happens to be onto that day. And not much more. Extrinsic motivators do NOT work, and there appears to be precious little intrinsic motivation at work, either.

We see occasional flashes of extraordinary effort, all right... but those are GENERALLY directly related to negative habits like formidable procrastination or even more overt self-handicapping. I've only been able to really discuss this with two people associated with the school-- and both of them were sort of... stunned... when they realized just how little of her ability they DO see on a regular basis. They certainly don't accommodate it or nurture it. She has never really taken a class that she couldn't learn 16 weeks' worth of material in under two weeks. Mostly, in under two DAYS. So when she chooses to do stuff like that... and still gets A grades...

NOT things we want her to feel "good" about. But they are challenges that she is choosing and engineering for herself, I suppose. Amidst all of this, we see occasional glimpses of her actual ability, which is frankly a little frightening in its scope and intensity. She really could do world-shattering things. If she cared enough to bother, basically. And mostly, she doesn't.


Ahhh, the quandary, there... do we praise her for the A in AP physics, when we KNOW that this was an 11th hour sprint and that she has been lazy about her approach all term long? It's still probably not her "best" effort. We, too, are pragmatic about "best" efforts ourselves, so "good enough" has a place in life, as does "individually determined challenge to one's self." Hard to know-- after all, she DID turn it on in dazzling fashion there right at the end... and she DOES have A-level understanding of the material now. Is it just an unconventional approach? Or is it maladaptive?

Well, if nothing else I take some comfort in your last post HowlerKarma I figure if someone who is so obviously committed to their kid and who knows their kid so well (from what I have seen in your other posts) hasn't cracked this, then I'm probably not missing something obvious!

Thanks again for everyone's input.