Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion How petty can teachers get!?!

I looked up DD's grades last night since our semester will soon be over. Of course she is doing very well in all her classes, but I noticed one class was a little lower than it had been. I looked to see if maybe DD didn't get something turned in or something.
This is what I found - DD got a 2 out of 10 on something the teacher labeled "listening". I looked further and found that DD got the grade for "bad behavior in class" while the class was supposed to be listening to a video on Haiku Poetry. Now really - should teachers be grading on behavior!?! DD had told me about this incident - she had been messing with something she brought to school without our knowledge and it had been taken away.
I have a problem with this, but it didn't really bring her grade down since it was only 10 points - still I'd like to know if other students are being graded on their behavior? I don't think this is really something I need to address with the teacher or anything, but it is just frustating. I will keep an eye on this class just in case.

Of course they should be (imho). They are in our district.

For example, a friend's daughter got a low grade in the "oral" component for language. This girl is a fantastic public speaker and a strong reader, so her mom was perplexed. She asked the teacher and was told that "listening" is a component of oral. Bingo! This girl has ADHD and has poor listening skills because of her ADHD behaviours.

I think this is legit. In our schools, the kids are not groomed to be "test takers" as much as they are equipped with life skills. (They do take tests of course and have to meet provincial curriculum objectives, but they are also required to learn behaviours that will help them in life, such as social skills and listening).

Listening skills are extremely important. I had horrible listening skills when I was a kid, and that is what kept me from being grade-accelerated. If I had been given the guidance when I was young to develop better listening skills, my academic life might have been a lot different.

My ADHD kid, meanwhile, is being given support for his listening issues (time with a SLP, access to technology, EA time, etc.) His report card is pretty bad, but he's in grade 3... how much do marks really count in grade 3?

Just my opinion... others might not agree...

Yes, children are graded on behaviors in our school as well - particularly if the grade/assessment involves a behavior (like poetry/language arts involves listening and attending, ykim?)Anyway, unless your DD has an IEP/504 that allows her or excuses her for certain behaviors, I would think it valid. So, for example, my DS has hypotonia... during circle time, one is suppose to sit in 'criss-cross apples sauce position' and listen; DS was grade low for listening in circle time because he kept laying down or wanted to sit in a chair more supportive of his back. It wasn't until I brought the 504 to the teacher's attention that that he was permitted alternative sitting arrangements and that was no longer held against him (granted this was kindergarten so it's not like they really had grades but I think you get what I am saying).

I understand getting into trouble for not listening when she is supposed to, but I don't know about being graded down for it. I bet if the teacher had asked her to summarize the video or repeat the poem she could have because she probably was listening - she was just messing with something (she shouldn't have been) at the same time. I also think what is rubbing me wrong is the wording the teacher used - "bad behavior in class". There are so many different ways to say that she was not paying attention when she should have been.

If teachers aren't going to quantitatively test student listening skills, then it shouldn't be incorporated into their grades.


The appearance of listening is not the same as actually listening, and similarly, the appearance of being distracted does not necessarily mean the student is not processing the information being presented.

Another point: behavioural issues are a huge red flag for curriculum mis-match, and if identified (and noted on the report card) by the teacher, can contribute to help for the child.

For example, another friend of mine has a very clever daughter in grade 2 (she`s probably gifted). Sure enough, behaviour issues are all over her report card, which has initiated discussions between her mom and the teacher about testing and enrichment.

I agree with you here, 100%. It should have been worded differently.

1frugalmom--I would also have been upset at finding out that this was a problem in this way; if the teacher was thinking to grade down on it, I think it would have been appropriate (and likely to have a much better outcome all around) for them to bring it to your attention to allow for possible outside help and intervention or counseling or whatever. Having said that, our DD has the same issue this year (and in the past) of appearing to not pay attention during lectures, and the (nice) teacher was upset by this because although sometimes DD actually was listening/absorbing the material, other times she was not, and regardless, her clearly inattentive behavior was distracting to the other children. With positive support from the teacher this year, we've been able to discuss and reinforce appropriate behavior at home and her in-school behavior has gradually improved, although she still slips up. I'm not sure what grade your DD is in (ours is in 4th), but until kids get to high school or unless it affects whether they can get into accelerated classes (not an option where we are anyway), I don't think grades really matter all that much (in the sense of not being detrimental to their future). It's really in your DD's interest to be able to pretend to listen, and although this teacher seems to probably be a bad fit and not very helpful, there might be other more helpful teachers down the road who could be put off by distracting behavior and it could cause even more trouble for your DD. So difficult as it is under the circumstances (and I have been there too!!!), please consider gritting your teeth and trying to discuss this with the teacher in a collaborative and friendly way to see if you can work with DD to improve her behavior for the future. It may be a lost cause with this teacher (probably is, given that this is how they chose to handle it), but the best you can hope for is getting something positive out of it anyway for your DD, and remember, the year is half over! Best of luck!

Since this seems to only have happened once, I don't think I'd think twice about it. I'm guessing that this was a one-time thing that happened when your dd brought whatever it was to class that she wasn't supposed to, and that if it was an ongoing issue the teacher would have contacted you at some point.

Re your question, yes, my kids teachers do grade on behavior and I don't see an issue with it. If there was an ongoing issue and I felt the teacher was misinterpreting my child's actions I'd meet with the teacher to discuss what was up.

polarbear

I taught high school and a small percentage of the final grade was based on "participation"-- in district we were advised to include this because we couldn't grade down for say attendance but this have us leeway if kids were gone alllll the time (like rich kids whose families do whatever), or kids who cut and then parents excuse them so they legally could make up the work. Anyway I ended up using it as a way to reward those who tried very hard, contributed a lot to the class, quietly kept their focus or helped others. If I had to stand over a kid daily and beg him to work, he got dinged. Everyone else got neutral points.

Hmm.

I sympathize with a giftie fidgeting while being subjected to the fourth lecture about addition models in two weeks. But the topic was poetry. It seems reasonable to expect that even a very bright child might learn something in that situation.

As for the "bad behavior" label, it seems reasonable to me based on what you described. Sorry; I know this isn't what you want to hear, but your daughter did something she almost certainly know she shouldn't have done. She likely distracted other kids and sent a message to the teacher saying, "I don't care about this poetry stuff." IMO, this is bad behavior.

If the teacher didn't contact you about it, s/he probably didn't see it as a big deal, was reacting in proportion to the scale of the problem, and was consequently not being petty at all.

Learning to respect others is important, and your DD was being disrespectful. True, she was disrespectful in a small way, but the punishment was also small. Yet was apparently enough to get her attention if she saw fit to tell you about it. Personally, I think this is a good lesson.

I get that little kids don't understand all the rules: they're little kids and this is to be expected. But consequences like reduced grades for not behaving properly are there to teach the rules. Again, based on what I read, the teacher's reaction was absolutely appropriate.

I agree, and this might seal the deal for you:

Fast forward to her mid 40s, and pretend that she's my husband. Last year he was suspended without pay for 2 weeks because he said something rude in a company meeting. There was a guest speaker who complained about him, thinking the rude comment was directed at her (it wasn't and he had coworkers speak up in his defense, but he was still suspended). He was quick to play the victim "I was misunderstood" and I was quick to come back with "oh boo hoo. If you'd only kept your mouth shut and acted like a professional, you wouldn't be in this mess."

Gifted kids are not exempt from learning respect and proper behaviour...

These two examples are night and day, and the socioeconomic bias towards rich kids isn't even veiled. We live in one of the wealthiest districts in our state, and I have a hard time believing some of the of the kids whose parents can afford 6 weeks in Europe while requiring their children to keep up with studies hardly qualifies as wasted time. I really don't get the resentment towards children whose parents can provide those kinds of opportunities; if sure would if I could. And it is seriously not the same as some kid who is ditching - wealthy or poor.

I have never understood participation grades. My daughter played the system and got A's because she knew how to nod her head while doing homework for another class - she wasn't paying attention but sure looked the part. My youngest, who actually cares about learning, rarely gets full points for behavior because of spacing out thinking about something the teacher said or because of challenging a premise of the teacher's and getting docked for being disrespectful. He actually gets far more out of the class than my daughter, but because she was a better game-player, she got the points for participation.

If a kid is disruptive, there should be consequences, but grades should be about whether they learned the assigned material.

Just my two cents

Thanks for that message, ABQMom. It was needed. I took my son to DC with me last year when I went on business. He did all his homework and learned extra math while I was in meetings, and then spent three days wandering around the Smithsonian with me. All in all, it was time very well spent (as opposed to "whatever").


I see your point here, but I don't completely agree. Kids need to learn that there's a accepted way to behave properly and a right way to treat other people. IMO, this is a legitimate part of an education. I agree that "participation" grades can be used to inflate the grades of low-performing students (or as a way to express resentment). But this isn't the same as reducing a grade because a student is disruptive (thereby harming the ability of others to learn) or disrespectful.

I've worked with people who get their work done, but are toxic to others around them by being rude, disrespectful, or demeaning. I don't care if they get their work done if their behavior makes others who also get their work done unhappy enough to quit. Not to mention that they can interfere with the ability of others to get their work done. I happily knock points off their grades in a performance review if they work for me (or fire them if it comes to it).

IMO, if it is a legitimate part of an education (I debate this in my head, because there is a slippery slope of enforcing mainstream norms to the exclusion of minority viewpoints), then it should be graded separately. It only compounds the underlying hypocrisy and often seeming meaninglessness of grades by reducing subject grades because of behavior factors.

In various employee review systems I've used, there is separate scoring between character and team based measures and specific job performance measures.

On the other hand, for participation, look at an advanced educational context like a graduate seminar and it isn't quite adequate to measure only test and project performance. There is an aspect of learning that isn't as measurable that takes place in the dynamics of a seminar. If someone does not show up, they won't have partaken of that.

I'd also be curious to see the coursework teachers take (if any) on developing/teaching character.

The other thread on issues with a math teacher illustrate alternate risks. Overall an interesting topic, as I can't even decide if I think required community service in an IB program is a good or a bad thing.

Hmmm everyone makes such good points - many different considerations... good food for thought. My DS told me he finds math so boring he fell asleep during math class the other day... he said "thank God no one noticed!" LOL! Hoping I won't be the next one posting about this!

LOL I just asked DD10 if anyone's ever fallen asleep in class, and she told me one boy did. I asked what the teacher did, and she said "she knew he wasn't feeling well that day so she told us all to leave him alone and let him sleep."

(awwww )

On a somewhat related note, I got in trouble for reading a novel under my desk in History 11 class (HATED that class). I remember feeling bad once I realized how rude I was being - I had no idea. It took that experience for me to clue in.

I never got in trouble for reading novels in class above my desk (about half my classes from middle through high school.) Actually can't fathom how that's rude. Conversely classes being compulsory and such and being compelled to sit through repeated material at a ponderously slow rate seems rude. Seems better than falling asleep or doing something overtly disruptive. Or worse I would pay attention and get highly engaged in the material and ask overly complex questions to enrich my understanding; now that's disruptive.

LOL I think because I was reading while the teacher was lecturing... oops


Especially when they're questions the teacher can't answer... ;p

I feel your pain, something similar just happened to my DD8. She is in 3rd grade and got all perfect scores (they don't use grades so I just call them perfect since she got the highest marks) in all areas that are academic but when it came to the "Social" section, she got marked down 1 rank/grade for "talks too much" and she got marked down 2 ranks/grades for "organization" ... No explanation for either. I talked to my DD about it and she said at the beginning of the year she was too talkative, but she was reprimanded for it and has been working on it since then. She had no clue what the organization was for, so I made her write her teacher a note to ask. IMHO, it is a teacher failure to provide a low mark without some type of constructive criticism to help the student identify the area of weakness to set goals to improve upon. Her teacher told her she kept a messy desk ... so yea, in our school, they get marked down for keeping a messy desk. Now,in the teacher's defense, I am CERTAIN she keeps a messy desk because she can be quite a slob about her own desk at home. It just caught me off guard, since she remembers her homework every day, gets her day planner signed every day, hands all her work in on time, has the proper attire at school for the weather outside, etc... I just figured THOSE were the things that being organized was all about. However, I supported the teacher and had a talk with my daughter, because it does her no favors in life to not learn how to hear and process constructive criticism. She told me two days ago she couldn't find her take home folder so I had her go to school and clean her desk yesterday and lo and behold, she found it. Hoping next report card will show an improvement!

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear, but I meant that was the message given by the district admins, who wanted the attendance money (and yes, they did not hide their chagrin with the more privileged families, when talking to staff. I agree the attitude is annoying. Toxic attitudes abound in education, I'm afraid, but you can successfully seek out the positive colleagues, fortunately). And to be fair, plenty of kids in our district will skip for the beach or going shopping, etc, whether it was with mom or just excused by her after the fact. Which I personally still wouldn't begrudge a kid occasionally, though I heard for some it was a weekly issue. But I didn't find it a big problem with my students (maybe my school site--we had kids go on trips and it did not affect their participation grade in my class! You have to take each student individually--some have IEPs, some have a recent trauma, some miss because they have to work, some want to only share prepared work vs an impromptu discussion, etc, but they can all contribute in their own way) and I do think that being part of a community of learning should be reflected in grades, to a degree. It's true that some teachers just want you to play the game but I loved my kids who would pose "annoying" questions--they really got the class going and modeled independent thinking. But parts of playing the game, not sitting down and shutting up, but speaking up (asking questions, sharing writing, sharing comments/reactions, etc) are necessary for writers' workshop and learning. I think elementary and secondary are very different than say college, where it's just about two tests and an essay to show your mastery. I think the compulsory nature of lower education is part of this issue. Some kids need the explicit motivation to participate fully. I'm sure it can be mismanaged by some teachers. Anyway, I'm sure this is way off topic, sorry OP.

You're one if the good ones, St. Margaret. I was railing at that pervasive attitude in general.

And I see a bunch of cross posts that got at it more eloquently than I, on my phone during an early morning nursing session

Sure. I got a C in conduct every single report card in elementary.

Along those lines, and in response to the original intent of the thread...

we have a rule with our DD about paying attention which is about respect.

It's just plain rude and arrogant to refuse to pay attention and participate in class when that is a general expectation.

I really don't care WHAT my daughter's reason is (aside from medical issues, obviously); if she is bored because the placement or content is vastly inappropriate, then that is not a job for HER to be addressing-- it's a matter for the adults in her life to figure out. She has input into those decisions, certainly-- but blatant incivility and disrespect are just plain rude.

Why is it "rude?" Well, primarily because if she chooses to evaluate what is happening around her and respond by tuning out and 'doing her own thing' when she is supposed to be paying attention and participating alongside peers... she is expressing a particular opinion in fairly public, though passive-aggressive fashion. She is saying; "You bore me. I know all of what you plan to say, and I know it so well that you couldn't possibly teach me anything on this subject. Oh, it's fine for all of THEM. But I'm special and the rules don't apply to me. So I will ignore you."

I think that most of us can agree that this is a fairly arrogant and presumptuous stance, even if it turns out that she DOES know most (all?) of what winds up being presented to her. It is preemptively dismissive of an adult authority figure--a person who has taken the time to prepare to instruct a group of which she is part.

Why are we okay with other adults being punitive about this kind of thing?

Because she has no organic REASON to have difficulty participating other than being somewhat bored and preferring to make her own decisions about what is entertaining/important to her. Well, life is quite harsh for people who come across as rude to others.

I think that (and this gets into general parenting philosophy here, so I don't expect everyone to agree with me) children should NOT be allowed to flout authority without there being very good reasons related to health and safety. We all have to obey rules and laws which we, as individuals, could well ignore or break without any consequences to others. But anarchy is not the answer, and it's arrogant to presume that only I should be permitted to determine which laws I should have to follow... and as soon as everyone is permitted to do so, poor judgment enters the fray. Anarchy. Clearly.

In my mind, school is in part about teaching children about the social contract as well as about academic disciplines and skills.

Again, I don't expect that everyone will agree with me there. It's merely my own opinion; but we've done a lot to teach our DD that she should NOT expect 'special' treatment other than that which her own behavior and performance garners her-- in any respect, that is. If she is disrespectful, she WILL make a poor impression, and it naturally follows that she will lose any grace/goodwill that might otherwise have been in the offing.

Pretty critical life lesson, honestly.

I don't disagree with your main point, HK. I agree that children need to be taught to pay attention, and be respectful. These are skills that will be vital later in life.

I just think that there need to be age-appropriate allowances made. The OP did not indicate which of her DDs was involved, but I assume it's the 8yo in 3rd grade (per her sig). Eight is not an age strongly correlated with impulse control. My observation is that, as a group, they're really easily distracted. An 8yo being distracted while watching a film on haiku... I may not agree with the behavior, but I can understand it. It's a very simple form, which is why it's all over pop culture, because anyone can do it. Do she really need an entire film to get it?

I wouldn't agree that "being distracted" needs to be interpreted as "being disrespectful" in all situations, either.

Also, the OP did not indicate that this is an ongoing problem. Based on your response, it sounds like it's an ongoing issue with your DD's. I suppose my lackadaisical response is largely informed by the fact that it's not an issue with my DD... she's always been the one kid preternaturally focused and on task. That's one of the ways in which she stands out from the crowd. Incidentally, she'd agree more with you than with me, because all her age-peers being distracted drives her to distraction.

Dude, I agree-- and I came back to actually add that one thing I'd see as a completely legitimate beef here is the fact that this was apparently a surprise to both parent and child.

That is just unfair. Yes, I suppose there is probably a life-lesson there, as well, but I'm not sure that it's age-appropriate.

I still recall feeling utterly indignant at a psych professor in college when I got an "A" and not an "A+" because I had not been informed at any point in time that my course attendance would be part of my grade, and frankly I needed that hour sometimes to set up apparatus in a lab-- so I was probably absent about 10-15% of the course, but NEVER missed a quiz or exam. I was clearly paying very close attention to the syllabus and schedule; it wasn't a 'discussion' course, but a lecture section.

That grade still rankles over 20 years later, actually. It was the unfairness of it-- the arbitrary decision to include a non-academic measure of course success and apply it retroactively was just w.r.o.n.g. Hmph.

Hello everyone,

Numerous posts in this thread were deleted due to veering from the original topic, as well as an insulting tone in them. Please keep the discourse at a more respectful tone in the future and contact me if you have any questions.

Best,
Mark

Stepping in here as a 4th and 5th grade teacher.

Yes, there are some behavioral components that I attach to grades. For example, if students are required to make some type of presentation to their classmates, one part of their grade (maybe about 10-20% of the final project grade) is based on what I call "listening to others" -- when it's time for OTHER kids to present, are they being attentive and respectful? So, a student could have a wonderful presentation with all of the necessary components...and get an A- (or whatever) because he/she failed to be respectful when his/her classmates were presenting their projects. I also have a grade penalty attached to assignments that are turned in late (which is a "behavior" issue) -- if you have every point correct but you turn it in a day late, you get a 90% instead of a 100%. So, yes, everything that happens within my classroom is "fair game" in my opinion in terms of having a grade assigned to it. One thing to remember is that teachers are pretty limited in terms of what we can use to penalize students -- I can mess with grades or I can mess with recess time (and teachers in some schools can't do THAT). That's about it these days. Major behavioral issues go to the office, but I can't send kids down there for smaller issues. A consequence of "calling your parents" isn't always a consequence for some kids if their parents aren't going to do anything about it, so that isn't a reliable motivator or equitable consequence for all kids (one kid's consequence may be a two-week grounding, while another kid has absolutely nothing happen to him for the exact same behavior).

I do think that most teachers who tweak grades due to behavior issues do it with age-appropriate behaviors in mind -- a kindergarten teacher isn't going to knock down a kid for fidgeting a little bit during a presentation. My expectations for students are VERY clear, so they know what types of behaviors may result in a grade penalty. My only question for this particular incident might be how/why the teacher decided on the grade of 2 out of 10. Was that related to the number of times the teacher warned the student to put that item away? Was there some type of activity the students were supposed to be doing that the student missed questions on...and behavior points were taken off in addition to that (so a video quiz worth ten points...the student missed seven questions...the teacher then took off another point due to behavior)? If all ten points were based solely on listening and the teacher arbitrarily took eight points off, that would be little tougher to understand. I could pretty easily justify taking off 20% of a grade for something like that, but not 80% off. However, with my "parent hat" back on, I still wouldn't raise THAT issue with the teacher if it's a one-time thing and it didn't completely devastate the kid's final grade in the class.

You noted that you were offended by the "bad behavior in class" phrase being used to describe your daughter's issue, but keep in mind that if you found that as a comment attached to the grade in an online gradebook system (and it sounds like that may have been what it was since you didn't contact the teacher directly) the teacher may be limited to a certain number of typed characters or may be limited to a list of system-generated comments and have to just choose one from the list. I wouldn't let that "label" bug you too much.

There are some schools (especially high schools) that are moving to a system where grades are very clearly based only on a student's mastery of the content. Points can't be taken off for late assignments or unexcused absences or other behavior issues. Points also can't be GIVEN for non-academic things (like extra credit points given for bringing in a canned good for the school food drive or for showing up to a school event). I'll even heard of schools where points can't be taken off for CHEATING -- the student has to be given an alternate assignment to be able to demonstrate their mastery of the content, and the cheating behavior is addressed in a separate way. I guess I can understand keeping a tighter rein on things in the secondary setting where GPA when compared to other students can actually MEAN something, but I don't think having a behavioral component to grades in the elementary setting is a problem.

In school, I remember a teacher expressly teaching us that we didn't have to do anything and that there was always a choice.

Ergo, we could choose to fail if that was our desire.

My son got three frowny faces in about a week and a half. He's had smiley faces all year. The first time he had to write a half a page of sentences. The second time he had to write an apology letter. The third time he got grounded to his room for four hours. That consequence has happened once before, it's the "big mess up" punishment. Three times of not listening to your teacher is "big messing up" in my opinion. The teacher said it was because the kids were on vacation mode early for the hollidays. I said, well, he has to behave at school if he wants to go. I asked him what he did. I asked him what he goes to school for. He knows. You go to school to learn stuff, make me proud, have fun, and behave. He said, "but I was having fun and forgot to behave." I said, "well, that's a big part if it. You have to behave at school."
I guess that's different because it has nothing to do with grades, it's only the first year of school, and it's very obvious that the teacher really loves and cares about the kids.

Re the husband being suspended thing. He probably should have kept his mouth shut BUT if he is anything like me he probably has trouble understanding why when he is CONSTANTLY letting other peoples offensive remarks go and bending over backwards to accommodate other peoples demands and weird needs, other people get so bent out of shape about what seems to him to be trivial.

It took me until I was 40 to work out I was using a different code and I still can't predict what will offend.

Random punishments for offences I didn't understand didn't help.

However in the OPs case her daughter seems aware of what she did so just tell her and move on. Some of the other posters need to try and help their children understand other peoples rules.

Eta. I didn't mean that in a judgemental way as in you SHOULD. I just meant that in some cases explicit instruction is required. I am going to have to find someone to teach my kids this if they haven't worked it out by 10 or so.

Lo and behold we are still having issues in this class which was completely unbeknownst to us until recently when mid-terms came out. We spoke to DD8 about the incident from my original post and thought that was that. DD has not mentioned anything else to us and the teacher has not contacted us with any issues.

DD's grade for the 1st and 2nd quarter has been an A. Now for the 3rd quarter she is getting a C. I contacted the teacher to find out what was going on and was told that DD doesn't pay attention to her instructions and then hurrys through the assignments so she doesn't have homework. Then the teacher proceeded to tell me how many times she goes over the instructions with the class and how she does examples, then asks questions, has the students do any example, then does the practice examples, then repeats the instructions again, then asks the students to reread the instructions and so forth. By my count, the teacher is repeating herself at least 6 times before the students are allowed to start working. I think she was trying to explain to me that there is no reason for DD to not understand the worksheet since she goes over it so many times, but that statement explained to me what part of the problem is.

As a bit of background - this teacher started out as a remedial teacher and some of you may argue with me, but I think that has a lot to do with how she presents the lesson - she is teaching to the lower curve and isn't good at handling the upper curve. DD comes into her class from her gifted pull-out and DD mentioned she is sometimes late. We plan on asking the gifted teacher to try to mind the time better so DD isn't a distraction in a class she is having issues in. I also know several of you have mentioned DD should be able to at least fake that she is paying attention or be respectful enough to sit through this type of over-instruction. But the unnecessary, excessive, reduntant, repetitious, superfluous(get my point!)manner this teacher is using is like poison to DD's ability to stay focused. How can I nicely explain to the teacher that she is basically shooting herself in the foot with DD by not just letting her do the worksheets? Mind you, these aren't brain surgery worksheets - they are singular vs. plural and possessive nouns, etc.

DH and I have already talked with DD and explained she has to do her best to pay attention and not rush through her worksheets. We have reminded her to not fiddle with things in class and leave other students alone. We have even given consequences at home and will continue to do so. I realize a C in 3rd grade doesn't mean much in the long run but dropping from A's to a C in a couple weeks tells me we have a problem and although I know DD has her part in this situation I honestly don't think this can all be blamed on her. I also want to know why the teacher didn't contact us if there was a problem.

I've asked the teacher to have DD bring her work home for us to review since the teacher said she encourages students to take their work home and DD hasn't brought anything home for a long time. I've also asked if DD can read if she does get her work done to an acceptable level to try to give DD a reason to pay attention and do a good job on her work.

Okay let me have it - what can we do to make this situation better? - what should we have done differently? DD will have this teacher in some capacity for the next couple years and I don't want to burn any bridges but we need to figure this out sooner rather than later.

Why can't the students begin working when they UNDERSTAND what to do? Can the teacher give your DD written instructions and her packet of work instead?

Ding-ding-ding. I think we have a winner.



Okay-- well, FIRST, make sure that your DD's tardiness isn't a part of the teacher's perception problem here. That is, is the teacher already primed by her "lateness" to see her as a disruption or a behavioral problem? If so, that's not appropriate, and deeply unfair to your DD.

The other factor which I'll bet is at work here is the sharp transition from higher level to what sounds like revoltingly remedial... in other words, cognitively, your DD is being expected to go from 70 to 5mph without any transition. That'd be hard for most adults.

Secondly, you maybe can USE that late entry to class as a tool here-- you can make the argument (probably successfully) that providing your dd with a packet of the day's work and short written instructions might be better all the way around. See, that way your DD hasn't "missed" any of the teacher's oh-so-critical instructions... and she can get right to work and catch up! (Yay....)


Oh, oh, oh.... ack. Yes, this is TOO TOO much to expect a 3rd grader to 'fake' respectfully and still get right.

"The other factor which I'll bet is at work here is the sharp transition from higher level to what sounds like revoltingly remedial... in other words, cognitively, your DD is being expected to go from 70 to 5mph without any transition. That'd be hard for most adults."

WOW - this was something that for some reason didn't even occur to me! So, so, so glad you thought of this!!!!

It sounds to me that the kid is tuning the teacher out, a perfectly understandable reaction if the teacher is explaining things six different times. GET ON WITH IT!!

However, your DD needs to learn to at least tune in long enough to know what's expected of her, so that's on her. I'd allow her to receive the grade she has earned, with very little muss and fuss. That'll teach her the value of paying attention.

On the other hand, it does seem like the teacher could make an easy accommodation here. If your DD were allowed to begin the assignment as soon as she understands the directions, rather than wait to hear the same information half a dozen times, that would make it easier for her to pay attention. And if she misses something, by starting in too early... again, let the natural consequences unfold. If she starts in on the assignment while the teacher is still talking with the rest of the class, the only one being distracted is your DD.

We asked DD how she felt about the C and if she thought she was really doing her best - she was pretty apathetic to all of it.

I got the impression this teacher would view DD starting on the assignment (before she was done explaining everything over and over) as DD being a disruption. I understood her explanation as the students have to listen to her instructions until she is done and then they can do their work.

This sounds like you've got bigger problems than the assignments then... she's not just tuning out the teacher, she's tuning out school altogether.

I think drastic changes are in order.

This is what we asked the teacher for. I figured we better double check her work for 1. to make sure she is understanding 2. to be able to know better what scores she is receiving for her work done compared to her behaviors in class and 3. at this point if she doesn't do well on her assignments for the rest of the quarter she won't be able to bring her grade up by the end. #3 may seem a bit off because I do believe if she does C work she deserves a C, but then as a protective mother I struggle with knowing she is having issues in this class partly due to reasons she has no control of.


After I asked for DD's work to be brought home I received a reply from the teacher saying she would send home the homework on the more "difficult concepts" but not anything else. Now I feel even more sure that this teacher is trying to maintain her control of the situation and we need to get this issue resolved very quickly!!

This is the only class she has any issue in at all - all her other grades are A's and none of her teachers (including the one I'm worried about) have told us about any issues going on at all. I had to contact this teacher when DD had a C on her mid-term grade card to ask what was going on because I was dumbfounded. The teacher hadn't even contacted us about DD's drop from an A to a C in 2 weeks time - maybe she wasn't concerned but I know we sure were.