Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion How petty can teachers get!?!

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear, but I meant that was the message given by the district admins, who wanted the attendance money (and yes, they did not hide their chagrin with the more privileged families, when talking to staff. I agree the attitude is annoying. Toxic attitudes abound in education, I'm afraid, but you can successfully seek out the positive colleagues, fortunately). And to be fair, plenty of kids in our district will skip for the beach or going shopping, etc, whether it was with mom or just excused by her after the fact. Which I personally still wouldn't begrudge a kid occasionally, though I heard for some it was a weekly issue. But I didn't find it a big problem with my students (maybe my school site--we had kids go on trips and it did not affect their participation grade in my class! You have to take each student individually--some have IEPs, some have a recent trauma, some miss because they have to work, some want to only share prepared work vs an impromptu discussion, etc, but they can all contribute in their own way) and I do think that being part of a community of learning should be reflected in grades, to a degree. It's true that some teachers just want you to play the game but I loved my kids who would pose "annoying" questions--they really got the class going and modeled independent thinking. But parts of playing the game, not sitting down and shutting up, but speaking up (asking questions, sharing writing, sharing comments/reactions, etc) are necessary for writers' workshop and learning. I think elementary and secondary are very different than say college, where it's just about two tests and an essay to show your mastery. I think the compulsory nature of lower education is part of this issue. Some kids need the explicit motivation to participate fully. I'm sure it can be mismanaged by some teachers. Anyway, I'm sure this is way off topic, sorry OP.

You're one if the good ones, St. Margaret. I was railing at that pervasive attitude in general.

And I see a bunch of cross posts that got at it more eloquently than I, on my phone during an early morning nursing session

Sure. I got a C in conduct every single report card in elementary.

Along those lines, and in response to the original intent of the thread...

we have a rule with our DD about paying attention which is about respect.

It's just plain rude and arrogant to refuse to pay attention and participate in class when that is a general expectation.

I really don't care WHAT my daughter's reason is (aside from medical issues, obviously); if she is bored because the placement or content is vastly inappropriate, then that is not a job for HER to be addressing-- it's a matter for the adults in her life to figure out. She has input into those decisions, certainly-- but blatant incivility and disrespect are just plain rude.

Why is it "rude?" Well, primarily because if she chooses to evaluate what is happening around her and respond by tuning out and 'doing her own thing' when she is supposed to be paying attention and participating alongside peers... she is expressing a particular opinion in fairly public, though passive-aggressive fashion. She is saying; "You bore me. I know all of what you plan to say, and I know it so well that you couldn't possibly teach me anything on this subject. Oh, it's fine for all of THEM. But I'm special and the rules don't apply to me. So I will ignore you."

I think that most of us can agree that this is a fairly arrogant and presumptuous stance, even if it turns out that she DOES know most (all?) of what winds up being presented to her. It is preemptively dismissive of an adult authority figure--a person who has taken the time to prepare to instruct a group of which she is part.

Why are we okay with other adults being punitive about this kind of thing?

Because she has no organic REASON to have difficulty participating other than being somewhat bored and preferring to make her own decisions about what is entertaining/important to her. Well, life is quite harsh for people who come across as rude to others.

I think that (and this gets into general parenting philosophy here, so I don't expect everyone to agree with me) children should NOT be allowed to flout authority without there being very good reasons related to health and safety. We all have to obey rules and laws which we, as individuals, could well ignore or break without any consequences to others. But anarchy is not the answer, and it's arrogant to presume that only I should be permitted to determine which laws I should have to follow... and as soon as everyone is permitted to do so, poor judgment enters the fray. Anarchy. Clearly.

In my mind, school is in part about teaching children about the social contract as well as about academic disciplines and skills.

Again, I don't expect that everyone will agree with me there. It's merely my own opinion; but we've done a lot to teach our DD that she should NOT expect 'special' treatment other than that which her own behavior and performance garners her-- in any respect, that is. If she is disrespectful, she WILL make a poor impression, and it naturally follows that she will lose any grace/goodwill that might otherwise have been in the offing.

Pretty critical life lesson, honestly.

I don't disagree with your main point, HK. I agree that children need to be taught to pay attention, and be respectful. These are skills that will be vital later in life.

I just think that there need to be age-appropriate allowances made. The OP did not indicate which of her DDs was involved, but I assume it's the 8yo in 3rd grade (per her sig). Eight is not an age strongly correlated with impulse control. My observation is that, as a group, they're really easily distracted. An 8yo being distracted while watching a film on haiku... I may not agree with the behavior, but I can understand it. It's a very simple form, which is why it's all over pop culture, because anyone can do it. Do she really need an entire film to get it?

I wouldn't agree that "being distracted" needs to be interpreted as "being disrespectful" in all situations, either.

Also, the OP did not indicate that this is an ongoing problem. Based on your response, it sounds like it's an ongoing issue with your DD's. I suppose my lackadaisical response is largely informed by the fact that it's not an issue with my DD... she's always been the one kid preternaturally focused and on task. That's one of the ways in which she stands out from the crowd. Incidentally, she'd agree more with you than with me, because all her age-peers being distracted drives her to distraction.

Dude, I agree-- and I came back to actually add that one thing I'd see as a completely legitimate beef here is the fact that this was apparently a surprise to both parent and child.

That is just unfair. Yes, I suppose there is probably a life-lesson there, as well, but I'm not sure that it's age-appropriate.

I still recall feeling utterly indignant at a psych professor in college when I got an "A" and not an "A+" because I had not been informed at any point in time that my course attendance would be part of my grade, and frankly I needed that hour sometimes to set up apparatus in a lab-- so I was probably absent about 10-15% of the course, but NEVER missed a quiz or exam. I was clearly paying very close attention to the syllabus and schedule; it wasn't a 'discussion' course, but a lecture section.

That grade still rankles over 20 years later, actually. It was the unfairness of it-- the arbitrary decision to include a non-academic measure of course success and apply it retroactively was just w.r.o.n.g. Hmph.

Hello everyone,

Numerous posts in this thread were deleted due to veering from the original topic, as well as an insulting tone in them. Please keep the discourse at a more respectful tone in the future and contact me if you have any questions.

Best,
Mark

Stepping in here as a 4th and 5th grade teacher.

Yes, there are some behavioral components that I attach to grades. For example, if students are required to make some type of presentation to their classmates, one part of their grade (maybe about 10-20% of the final project grade) is based on what I call "listening to others" -- when it's time for OTHER kids to present, are they being attentive and respectful? So, a student could have a wonderful presentation with all of the necessary components...and get an A- (or whatever) because he/she failed to be respectful when his/her classmates were presenting their projects. I also have a grade penalty attached to assignments that are turned in late (which is a "behavior" issue) -- if you have every point correct but you turn it in a day late, you get a 90% instead of a 100%. So, yes, everything that happens within my classroom is "fair game" in my opinion in terms of having a grade assigned to it. One thing to remember is that teachers are pretty limited in terms of what we can use to penalize students -- I can mess with grades or I can mess with recess time (and teachers in some schools can't do THAT). That's about it these days. Major behavioral issues go to the office, but I can't send kids down there for smaller issues. A consequence of "calling your parents" isn't always a consequence for some kids if their parents aren't going to do anything about it, so that isn't a reliable motivator or equitable consequence for all kids (one kid's consequence may be a two-week grounding, while another kid has absolutely nothing happen to him for the exact same behavior).

I do think that most teachers who tweak grades due to behavior issues do it with age-appropriate behaviors in mind -- a kindergarten teacher isn't going to knock down a kid for fidgeting a little bit during a presentation. My expectations for students are VERY clear, so they know what types of behaviors may result in a grade penalty. My only question for this particular incident might be how/why the teacher decided on the grade of 2 out of 10. Was that related to the number of times the teacher warned the student to put that item away? Was there some type of activity the students were supposed to be doing that the student missed questions on...and behavior points were taken off in addition to that (so a video quiz worth ten points...the student missed seven questions...the teacher then took off another point due to behavior)? If all ten points were based solely on listening and the teacher arbitrarily took eight points off, that would be little tougher to understand. I could pretty easily justify taking off 20% of a grade for something like that, but not 80% off. However, with my "parent hat" back on, I still wouldn't raise THAT issue with the teacher if it's a one-time thing and it didn't completely devastate the kid's final grade in the class.

You noted that you were offended by the "bad behavior in class" phrase being used to describe your daughter's issue, but keep in mind that if you found that as a comment attached to the grade in an online gradebook system (and it sounds like that may have been what it was since you didn't contact the teacher directly) the teacher may be limited to a certain number of typed characters or may be limited to a list of system-generated comments and have to just choose one from the list. I wouldn't let that "label" bug you too much.

There are some schools (especially high schools) that are moving to a system where grades are very clearly based only on a student's mastery of the content. Points can't be taken off for late assignments or unexcused absences or other behavior issues. Points also can't be GIVEN for non-academic things (like extra credit points given for bringing in a canned good for the school food drive or for showing up to a school event). I'll even heard of schools where points can't be taken off for CHEATING -- the student has to be given an alternate assignment to be able to demonstrate their mastery of the content, and the cheating behavior is addressed in a separate way. I guess I can understand keeping a tighter rein on things in the secondary setting where GPA when compared to other students can actually MEAN something, but I don't think having a behavioral component to grades in the elementary setting is a problem.

In school, I remember a teacher expressly teaching us that we didn't have to do anything and that there was always a choice.

Ergo, we could choose to fail if that was our desire.