Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Does "Love and Logic" work with gifted children

Has anyone tried and been successful using the "Love and Logic" techniques with their gifted child/children? We have done some reading on it but haven't really tried anything out yet. It sounds like it could work but wondering if anyone has any thoughts or guidance.

We've taken a parenting class on L&L. When I first heard about the basic idea of giving 2 choices for everything my first thought was, "What happens when they say neither one?" Which of course is what DD would say every single time, no matter how often I repeated that there were only 2 choices. Also, I noticed most of their suggestions for consequences are monetary, like, "You can clean up your room now or you can pay me to do it." Or, "You guys can stop arguing in the car or you can pay me $5 to listen to you." Obviously you could adapt this to find some consequences that work better for your family, but for DD she'd just pay up and leave me thinking, "Why did I even offer to let her pay me for this?? Sooo not worth it." (The pay comes from an allowance you give them, another of their suggestions.)

I think they're definitely on to something with the whole "let's hope they fail" thing and I have tried to set DD up with little failures to learn from.

You'll notice I haven't mentioned my DS in this and that's just because he's always been so naturally compliant. Even as a 1-yo toddler when we'd tell him no about something he'd just say, "awight!" and stop right away. We'd joke that he was under the Imperius Curse. If I could bottle that temperament and sell it, I think I'd be a billionaire.

Not sure how old your child(ren) are, but the techniques in Transforming a Difficult Child with a points system- transformed my Ds5 in 24 hrs. I think because he believes he's in control. I mean he is anyways, because it is he who has to make the choice of what to do. My ds is so motivated to get the points that he can use as he likes. It's great!
Btw, I never thought my son was difficult, but is strong willed, smart, and other techniques were not working.
Good luck.

Giving choices helped my son, somewhat, when he was around 3/4 yrs old. After that we had no idea what to do... this last year we moved to a chore/behavior chart tied to money and things are much better.

We have tried so many different things, and that may very well be part of the problem. We try something for a while (charts, point systems, payment for good days, etc) and then move on because nothing has truly worked. I hope we just haven't found the right way to handle the issues that come with having gifted daughters yet(DD8 & DD7). Right now the issue I see with L&L is that I understand it when I read about it, but can we really implement it into our situations. We don't give the girls any allowance since they are part of the family and are expected to do things as part of the family. Our consequences would be taking other things away like a cherished toy or computer/TV time, etc. Our girls would do the same thing as W'sMama said - they would just pay up and move on.
I'll look into the Transforming a Difficult Child and see if that system maybe needs to be the next one we try.
Thanks for the feedback!

My DS now 6.5 cannot be bought - chocolate for going on the potty, he decided the chocolate wasn't worth it and he LOVES chocolate. Just do your homework and you can have X, never worked either. And the flip side was true too - to a point. If you don't do this there are consequences. He also did the well I don't care. And that's where we had to up the ante - but that ante is not always about things - and you have to be careful to not go to far. Kid didn't apologize at the bus stop yesterday and parent said santa wasn't coming, that's pretty extreme in my view. For DS, it depends on how serious the transgression is in terms of what may be lost - he was accustomed to whatever he was doing rather than listening, lost one book, so I took all of them - yes one day I walked out with ALL his horrible science books. With chores we related it to being part of the family and if he doesn't do his part, we might not be able to do our part, so he might have to get school lunch rather than a packed lunch, which is not his preference, because I wouldn't have time. Or if he says he would do it later and then doesn't do it, then its a loss of trust and future privileges. Sometimes he is willing to risk that - and then you have to follow through. If you are going to use consequences, you have to find what they don't want to lose and I am not sure that is always stuff. Sometimes it is, but I have found that the carefully used, well I guess I won't be able to trust you to do it later next time, can be very effective.

I am the lay down the law parent in my house, DH is more likely to ignore little transgressions and then the pushing the pushing and then something bigger happens and DH BLOWS. And DS hates that. So he finds DH much more fun under most circumstances, and sometimes my conversations are peppered with nos and stop thats, but the pay off is that he is more mindful of my requests for action.

Its tough though and there was a period where I felt like I was correcting all the time so I started focusing on the you did a good thing - and also pointing out privately when we see other people's bad behavior, and having a discussion about it.

Not sure if any of this helps!

DeHe

I have read them all. We're currently doing Collaborative Problem Solving, and my DD8 seems to respond better to that than to most of the other things we've tried. I didn't really implement the Transforming the Difficult Child system, because it seemed to me that it would just not work for my daughter.

It's been a long time since I took the Love and Logic course so I apologize if my memory is fuzzy. We had the same issue as a prior poster in that the kids wouldn't accept the two choices given. My kids have been negotiators since they could talk and could see through these L&L manipulations in a heart beat. Also, neither of my girls are motivated by money. DS is motivated by money so we occasionally do use "paying mom" as a consequence with him.

In general, it seemed that their technique would be easier to implement with one kid. A lot of our challenges revolve around sibling issues. I did not find L&L to be as useful on sibling stuff. For example, I asked at the seminar about how to deal with one child making the other late for an activity. The presenter told me to let it happen and count on sibling peer pressure to kick in the next time. I thought that this was way off the mark. The tardy sibling was doing it on purpose and succeeding in making her sister late would only encourage repeated behavior of this sort. The presenter then suggested leaving the tardy sibling home. Again, off the mark, since she wanted to stay home and/or force one of the parents to miss her sibling's special event. We found it difficult to come up with a logical, natural consequence that didn't negatively affect her sister. I'm sure smarter parents could handle this better using L&L but not us.

I found "Siblings Without Rivalry" to have better suggestions re how to handle sibling conflict. My kids still never seem to follow their script either but at least it made more sense to me.

We seem to have very little luck with any kind of discipline. It's so frustrating. DS does listen a little better to my demands than to DH, because I do lay down the law. I find it extremely difficult to find the line between reasonable consequences and unreasonable ones. Especially when DS is doing something dangerous. You have to stop a kid from running into parking lots, for example, but what if they're struggling and trying to escape?

We're not in parking lots often, but we were a lot this weekend. I found myself spending a lot of time planning, as we walked through the garage, how to grab him if he took off at any given moment, because one of the times I grabbed his arm in a way that I know could dislocate his elbow (it happened once, in a similar situation, a year and a half ago), and I was terrified of grabbing him wrong again. It seemed like a lot of my time spent over a tantrum that hadn't even happened yet. He's also banged his head a lot of times, struggling to get away from me when something serious was going on. Once, we almost got caught in a subway door.

This stuff terrifies me.

The best approach seems to be to make sure he's getting what he needs in a day, but that can be nearly impossible, because some days he seems to need absolutely continuous, very focused attention, and gets frustrated if you so much as need to think before answering his questions.


Edited to add: There's no way in the universe that monetary/similar consequences would bother him. There are only two things per day that DS cares enough about to buy his compliance. Two. that's not a lot of currency.

Some kids are just really difficult to punish/reward using 'currency' since they are not very extrinsically motivated.

We have one of these kids-- and pretty much NOTHING works on her if she's determined/dug in. We've stripped everything from her as punishment, and offered some pretty incredible reward systems over the years, as well; I can assure you that for some kids, "sit on the naughty step, then" can go on ALL DAY if they don't want to... um... do five math problems that they KNOW how to do, clean the catbox, or put away the dishes. Yes, really; there is a reason why my DD's nickname is "Little Ghandi" that has nothing to do with social justice, let's just say. People who haven't seen this side of her simply can't FATHOM how immovable she can be.



Natural consequences tend to punish parents as much as kids, but sometimes that is all we have around here. Nobody ever promised that parenting was going to be fun or easy, right?

Like DeHe and knute, I'm the 'bad cop' parent-- my interactions with DD from ages 1-12 were mostly peppered liberally with behavioral modifiers and corrections. But I seldom had to deal with a kid who was way out of control or pushing ME there.

DH, on the other hand, wants to have "fun" with her so much that he ignores the little stuff until she pushes him into a corner, and then he comes out swinging (metaphorically, of course) and wondering how she wound him up so thoroughly.

It's because it's in her nature to push-push-push to get things her way. If you allow her to manipulate you, she WILL.

Most useful parenting book ever, IMO? The Manipulative Child which is particularly useful with non-extrinsically motivated children who are highly intelligent and socially adroit at a young age (in other words-- the little attorneys and negotiators).

My dd 7 is almost completely unbribable, has no particular interest in 'things' and so loss of them or money just doesn't provide any motivation for her. However it is very important to her that she have reading time at night, that she can watch her favourite TV show, that she can have friends over. So we have a house hold contract that we all came up with together. It specifies what chores we all do, how we will discipline her and a range of consequences we might choose. It gives her a right of reply and explains that if we reject it, we will explain why. We have a clause that states that there will be times when providing an explanation on the spot will not be appropriate (safety issues, where someone might be made to feel embarrassed by an explaination in front of others, on occasions when time matters and something just has to be done). We have a code phrase to indicate it is one of those moments and if dd does not cooperate with the request then there will be consequences. But we always follow through with an explaination later.

This probably sounds convoluted but it has worked really well. Dd has never accepted dicipline without explaination so this has just put some structure around it and her involvement in making up the rules has given us a fall back justification when she has refused to do things. Because the consequences are so specifically targeted at the few things that really matter to her, she genuinely hates to loose those priviliages.

Oh, and the contract has stopped dh suddenly announcing punishments along the lines of 'if you don't clean up your room you will never, ever be able to have a friend over again' ... This more than anything has lead to more peace in the house!!

@Howler Karma I love "Little Gandhi."
Mine tends more toward righteous indignation than passive resistance. I still have a two page treatise that she wrote in second grade about how I was a cruel dictator and how she longed for freedom from my oppressive tyranny (her words).

At one point, (I think she was 6 at the time) we put everything except DD's books and clothes into trashbags because she would not pick up her room or do anything else we asked her to do around the house. We really thought this would do the trick. Well she showed us...we had those trashbags in our front room just waiting on her to comply for over 3 months. She would talk her sister into playing with her just so she would have some toys to play with and I honestly don't think she really missed anything we took. When I told her she had 3 days to get it together or everything was going to a garage sale she still didn't seem to care. I finally ended up getting rid of most of her stuff and sticking some of the good stuff (things I couldn't part with) in a storage tub for a later date. I remember thinking as I put the things in the tub that neither of our daughters truly treasure a lot of the material things we (and grandparents) have bought for them, so maybe we need to re-evaluate what really matters.

My kids are 8 and 10 now and are freaking me out a little (lol) because they're so well behaved. Mind you we've been through the wringer and back, and since I'm a CONSISTENT, CONSEQUENCE-WIELDING CONTROL FREAK, I think they've just figured out that life is easier for everyone if they JUST LISTEN.

(ahhhh.... )

I have no idea what adolescence has in store though. Heaven help us all...

Oh, I'm a total control freak, too.

It's just that DD is more than a match for even me. I finally gave up after one too many incidents like frugalmom's "toy hostages" (which we also tried, by the way-- note to self, make sure that any toys thus stored are in SQUIRREL-PROOF containers when placed into storage shed in future, as we lost some of her favorite baby things that way... UGH) and

"sitting on the stairs until you can comply with my instructions" which turned into 8 or 9 HOURS each day on consecutive days.

(No, really not kidding. This was my then-eight-year-old, and yes, she was completely capable of doing what she'd been asked, which in one instance was writing a paragraph. She just CHOSE not to do it, and was going to show me that I couldn't MAKE her do it.)

Some kids really can't be motivated extrinsically by anything less than actual life-or-death situations or basic needs. Obviously those are not disciplinary tools, because withholding them or making them conditional is abusive.

DD isn't a bad kid (lucky for us), but she does require different handling than what I hear works for other parents. She's pretty reasonable if you explain things to her and they are rational, logical, or realistic somehow. So she understands that she has bedtime because she needs adequate sleep, for example. Reward systems tend to backfire badly because she's resentful of anything that smacks of operant conditioning, and also because she is SO keenly attuned to "this isn't fair" or "I don't like that you're judging me here" when we either reward/withhold rewards.

Love and logic's 2 choices worked for us last year. Shortly before turning 2, he started rejecting both choices and explaining what he wanted instead. Sometimes he acts like a 2 year old and sometimes it seems like he is around 8... No help here. He also isn't motivated by stuff. I am definitely open to suggestions ...

I think that the best book I have read on parenting is Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline by Becky Baily, not currency involved. But lots of quite explicit instructions on what to work on from each chapter (a lot of it on yourself not the child). I found it extremely useful with my children - when I could keep myself together enough to make it work. But the careful thoughtful use of language (and thinking through the problems before speaking) are in truth more than I have been able to maintain when dealing with years of sleep deprivation, eldest with AS, middle child HG+/ADHD and a very intense toddler. I am too caught up in putting out fires to manage what I know is an effective management/preventative approach. Also, I found when I was doing it well and it was working well it broke my heart to see the difference between how I was working with the kids and everyone else (DH particularly) was speaking to them AND it was clearly making the kids relationship with their dad more unstable as things being better with me made them more aware of the differences with their dad.

Like HowlerKarma I am the one that is ontop of things usually and has less issues as a result, DH swings more between super fun and completely frustrated. Me using this approach lead to things when I was in charge being calmer, me seeming like less of the bad cop and DH seeming less fun and more cranky...

MumofThree: I can relate to the problems with one parent working really hard at something, and the other parent not being as intentional. Also the problem of watching DS try to cope with a babysitter/group childcare after a spate of me "doing a good job." I wind up genuinely wondering if I'm ruining his life by getting him used to a way of being that works for him... which is to say, I get taken by the "you're spoiling him" daemons.

It's s confusing, because I know he has to learn to cope with other situations, but it really doesn't seem like doing the parent thing too well should be a problem!

ug.

A wise person gave me this advice about parenting inflexible children: sabotage. Run out of their favorite brand of bread or flavor of juice, so they have to make do with a non-preferred item. Drive a different way to the store until it doesn't make them nervous. Keep bending their routines. This is much, much harder in the short run (SO MUCH harder, in the case of a child who freaks out or melts down with changes in routine)-- but it yields the best outcome in the long run, as the child learns that they can cope.

As Mum3 points out, though, the parental effort is the limiting factor. You do survival-level stuff first, and work on the nuances when things are manageable. (Should that ever come to pass.)

DeeDee

For us it's not so much brands of juice as willingness to really listen to him, at length, constantly. His kindergarten teachers are *not* going to listen to him. In his view, they will probably not listen to him *at all, ever.*

I've come up with a key phrase now that means, approximately "shut up, listening that hard to you while we X will create a dangerous situation..." it works, maybe, oh, 20% of the time...

We can totally take a different way to the store, as long as I'm willing to engage in a complex consideration of the space-time continuum, local geography in the context of the passage of seasons and movement compared to the solar system, and so on. If we take the normal route, we can just talk about dinosaur evolution and compare/contrast bird to reptile eggs instead, and he's happy with that.

Michaela
As awful as it sounds, isnt your undivided attention currency? Those walks/drives started for us around the same age. I learned to do a lot of uh huh, with a targeted question now and again but I just let him ramble and then when home, announced it was play by yourself time or tv time. And mommy needs quiet time now. He thought this was very strange but in retrospect my protecting of my sanity actually also taught him to play by himself and not depend completely on others for his amusement. Now, four years later he plays by himself quite well, and is more respectful that conversations are two way streets but still will have to negotiate the I want you to play with me, but I don't want to do that, but why not, and then the myriad ways he attempts to get me to do it because he is SURE that I will want to do if he just keeps talking, he thinks it's fun so others should too even when it means doing it exactly his way in a manner which makes one feel like a chess piece. I am so much less amenable to this than my DH and apparently along with the lay down the law, I am also the one who has to teach him that other people have free will which means the right to not do it his way, and the right to not have to listen to him all the time. I might be a little vigorous in my teaching of this lesson sometimes, especially when I have a headache .

The intense focus all of the time can spoil him for other people because everything less is less enjoyable but intense focus for periods of time coupled with him doing what you or others ask is appropriate and developmental. I think all the time of anything is spoiling, not the intensity of the focus

I think safety always has to be paramount. I hated those leash/backpack things untill watched a friends kid walk right into the street,over and over again - any chance she was free would make a beeline for it, it was insane, she stopped doing it after probably a year, but if there wasn't a fence, she was too dangerous to be out of the stroller or unleashed. So it's legitimate to start demanding more than 20% compliance. But he's a smart kid, he will resist that change, until as they say it's futile to not. But as hard as it is teaching him to get out of his head when he needs to, or you need him to, is really important.

I think it makes everything so much harder when your kid is the square peg everywhere else, it makes you want to make one place for him where he can be himself and get that well filled up -but that can't be at the expense of safety, yours or his, or your sanity.

DeHe

Michaela, I look at my first and my third and wonder if my first suffered from too much undivided attention. Or whether she is as she is because she has AS and she was always going to be as she is... My 2.5yr old noted I was cranky this afternoon and after her usual interrogation about my feelings "Are you feeling happy?" "Are you feeling x?" "Don't be cranky mummy" she suddenly moved on to "Mummy you have very lovely hair." "Oh I like your shirt mummy." Four or five direct compliments in quick succession, complete with gently stroking the mentioned feature as a clear and deliberate tactic to change my mood. I am not sure my 11 yr old has given me a compliment ever. She will give me a small cuddle and tell me she loves me when she's angling to get something... Did I fail to teach my 11yr old all these social skills and instead teach her to expect constant entertainment and 1:1 attention - or was she simply wired that way? How do you make sense of too much v. not enough attention resulting in expecting too much from peopl or not knowing how to interact? Certainly #3 is better at self entertaining and I think it's partly from being left to her own devices more, but she's also learned way more social skills with way less input and attention and I am pretty sure that part is NOT causal.

The choices never work with our (probably gifted or at least gifted-ish) four year-old. Never have. Interestingly, they work with our two year-old (no clue on giftedness; he's a hard one to read). You can see the wheels in his head spinning...
"Do you want X or Y?"
"NO! NO X! NO Y! MEAN MAMA!"
"OK, then I'll choose for you. Here's X."
*stops, thinks, calms down* "Y."

With the four year-old (and he's always been this way):
"Do you want X or Y?"
"I DON'T WANT X OR Y!"
"You need to make a choice. X or Y."
"I DON'T WANT X OR Y!"
"If you can't make a choice, I'll have to choose for you."
"I DON'T WANT X OR Y!"
"OK, I'll choose for you. Here's X."
*complete meltdown*

Why, yes, my two year-old is in many ways more emotionally mature than my four year-old, why do you ask?

A points system may be more effective with my older kid; I'll have to check that out. He likes to "win" things. I hate to go completely extrinsic with him, but he can't seem to shake himself out of the angry/disappointed stage when he can't do what he wants to do at any moment.

OMG. This IS my DD. I've been joking for a while that I should hire her out for Occupy demonstrations. She also is not extrinsically motivated. Is this where I confess that I'm considering getting her an iTouch for Xmas just to see if THAT would be an extrinsic motivator?

Right now she has lost all the Warriors books she checked out of the library (you probably know how traumatic this should be). She earned one back and gave up. She's reading other books instead. Oh, and she also slipped up and admitted she checked one out of the school library and is reading it there (I decided not to go Defcon 5 on this). Books were the one currency that seemed to work a little, but it isn't working this time. And yes, it goes against my deepest nature to take away BOOKS, but we are desperate.

ETA: yesterday she spent two hours procrastinating over a sheet of math that she knows perfectly well how to do but dislikes (3-digit x 3-digit multiplication; she's annoyed by how laborious it is).

When DS was 4, we were moving cross country in the car. Direct consequences got meltdowns; so we did a point system that ranged from -5 to 5. And it could range back and forth based on our views of things he'd do. If it got to -5 then there would be an unspecified consequence. The one time we hit -5, he didn't get to choose his lunch at the next stop. (and +5 got a reward)

We've also used mystery choices for things. Typically the mystery being a better option. Like dessert, do you want chocolate ice cream, two cookies, or a mystery? (and mystery ends up being chocolate ice cream with sprinkles)

We also pulled choice back to make it about us as much as him: I'm willing to get you two cookies or ice cream. Would you like me to do either of those?

He has a strong sense of justice and framing things into mutual fairness really seems to work. At almost seven now, I'm really happy with his overall progress and character.

I have to admit...I'm not always good at "picking my battles" and typically I will look back and wonder why I made such a big deal out of whatever it was. At the time it seems like it is important and something very doable for a 7 & 8 year old; like lately we have been trying to get both girls to just do what we ask of them, when we ask them. To us this sounds very simple, we say go wash your hands and come eat and they should be able to comply. Very seldom is it that easy and both DH and I get very frustrated at having to repeat ourselves over and over. That is where we had hoped maybe the L&L would come in handy...we ask them to wash there hands and come eat and if they do it great, but if not then we eat without them or later when they ask something of us we give one of the L&L sympathetic responses and let them know since they didn't do what we asked then we aren't going to do what they asked of us. Like I said previously, it sounds easy enough, but I'm just not sure it will work for our types of situations. I now understand some of DD7 & DD8's issues are because our girls are gifted, but to me that doesn't give them a free pass in life to not do what they are told, when they are told. I don't see them as any different from any other child in that respect. Maybe I'm wrong...I don't know. Are we asking too much?

Philosophically, I come from another world. Not judging your point of view, but I don't believe children (gifted or not) need to do what they are told when they are told. I believe even my own child is just another human being who deserves dignity, respect, fairness, and communication. I have a responsibility to keep him safe and help him make good decisions when he has inadequate skills to make them on his own and to contribute to his learning those skills.

I think gifted children are fully capable of learning basic courtesy, no mater how recalcitrant or wilful they are. Giftedness is no excuse. One comes to dinner with the family (unless one is sick, etc.) because to do otherwise is an insult to the cook and possibly also an inconvenience to the parent who will later be asked to reheat something. We see it a social obligation to eat with others and share the day; in our family, it is what's done. Other families have other norms, but if you find your kids' behavior outside your family's norm, then you are very reasonable to correct it.

In our family's opinion, it is important for kids to learn the norms of our wider society, and be corrected when they aren't following those norms. (Acid test: when they go out on a job interview, will they be able to present themselves as polite and engaging? Refusing to eat when the others do would be a nonstarter in that context.)

Things we correct, in order of urgency:

1. Unsafe
2. Unkind or immoral
3. Inconsiderate or substantially inconvenient for others

DeeDee

Zen Scanner...I would love to just let things go, but that is just not in me! Please tell me then, how do you get your child to do things you want done? Maybe I'm going about this all wrong.
I think if my girls weren't ever told to put their clothes away, take a shower, pick up their rooms, do their homework, etc, I honestly don't think they would ever do it on their own and I'm not their maid, I'm their mother!

By continuously instilling and pointing to the values behind the things we ask him to do. With a very similar sequence of priorities as DeeDee outlined.

I don't know if it is uniquely gifted or a subset of gifted, but I have to function in a top-down manner. I have problems with details and specific rules etc. So, for me personally, I always drive towards the principle behind something. There is a reasonable chance that your kids are the same.

Typical childhood learning is that one keeps encountering small cases and eventually the brain on its own slowly reasons out to broader nuanced cases. With a lot of internal control + awareness + intrinsic motivation and a need for a top-down understanding, I think a lot of gifted kids need to understand the principle guiding things. Without it, they are encountering a large unconnected amount of individual rules that want to be rote learned, but aren't obviously generalized out to to other rules because they see too many what ifs, etc.

So, rather than remembering a 100 special cases, they can ask themselves: "If I do this, am I being kind? Is it safe?" etc. Over time, they improve their skills in making those judgement calls. As a parent you aren't explaining or justifying yourself, your child isn't questioning your judgement, they are trying to learn these larger principles in life and you are formally and directly teaching them rather than the more intuitive path a neuro-typical child usually needs to follow.

Downside, there is a lot of questioning and pushing. Upside, they formalize it sooner and apply it better and deeper.

:nodding yes:

Absolutely.

The rest of that is also true, though.



Ultramarina, I just wish that I could give you a hug and tell you that it gets better. I can't do either of those things, unfortunately... and we, too, have taken away print material as punishment.

This is pretty much the ONLY place that I can admit this, but there is NO way that I can use "go to your room" as a time-out, because often as not, that is a REWARDING environment as compared with the reason why I've opted to send her there for non-compliance. Because there are BOOKS in there, see...

The reason why our "naughty spot" is the stairs or our living room hearth is that those are both locations which are isolated/in the open enough that it is extremely difficult for DD to grab/stash reading material for the duration.

I do think that Zen Scanner is onto something, though, because for all of the awful years between 4 and 12, things seem to be dramatically improved since she turned about 12, and we have a fairly rational, polite and civil teenager. I often chose to explain separately from the parent-child-conflict in the moment, though-- so if handwashing was a problem, I would explain during a non-charged moment WHY that rule existed for our household, and why it was so important to remember it. Problem solved. Of course, it becomes like wildland firefighting, with me as a parent continuously mopping up hotspots.

There was a lot of conflict along the way, but it does get results long-term. It's a process.

I wonder if some of the time we expect our girls to just get what we are trying to teach them because logically they are smart enough to understand. We have tried sitting them down and explaining why it is we ask them to do the things we ask of them. I know they listen and understand because I often hear, "mom, I know" when I try to correct a behavior. My typical response is that if they already know whatever it is they are doing is something we don't approve of then why is it they are doing it. They know that we expect them to be kind, respectful, etc. In the end I guess we need to realize no matter how smart they are they are still just 7 & 8. For the most part they are well-mannered and well-behaved (maybe a bit impulsive sometimes without thinking things through) but I would just like to improve certain areas, like doing what is asked without DH and I asking repeatedly.

Sounds like you are getting there. And if you are working directly on values, then I'd think any "system" that works on artificial consequences can undermine the core values you really want to impart.

Hardest thing we find (and even my Mom mentioned this recently), it is really difficult to realize just how young 7 is. She said: You get talking with DS and suddenly your mind thinks he is much, much older and then when he acts his age or has his feelings hurt or does something impulsive it seems so out of place.

I'm always amused by the "Marshmallow experiment." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment
These kids can't wait 15 minutes to get double the reward?

I hate the spin given to that experiment because to me while the results might be predictive of later performance I think they are as much an indication of the child's level of trust in random adults -- in order to wait you have to believe that an unfamiliar adult will indeed keep his/her promise -- than of any innate quality. So are we selecting a trait (ability to defer pleasure) or are we selecting for healthy relationships with trustful adults in early life? Or a mix of both?

You will notice that popular wisdom ("the bird in the hand...) runs against the experiment's preferred outcome.

I hadn't played through that part with the adult trust. I get caught up in the poor kids who understand the outcome and have the knowledge, and then 4 minutes (or worse 12 minutes) into it their self discipline implodes.

I hadn't seen that there had been another study specifically set up to show the impact of tester reliability on results to the test. Ah! Glad to see I am not the only one to think there were issues in the original experiment and its interpretations...

And to get back to the original subject...

Choices and natural consequences have no effect on my (reasonably bright but probably not gifted) DD4. She will systematically pick option Z (whichever one the parent doesn't want) and letting it go to natural consequences immediately impinges on other people or gets into abuse territory (I am mostly unfazed at one skipped meal but are limits to the number of times food can be withheld). Clearly she can outthink her (supposedly gifted) mother.

That depends on what you define as "artificial," and on the kid.

Our DS, who has autism, could parrot back the values we wanted, but could not control his impulses according to them. A "system" was a really important tool for us to keep his attention on what we wanted from him, and make it worth it to him to comply. Over time, this can yield tremendous and positive behavior change.

DeeDee

Eh!

Currently reading reports before another IEP meeting for DS8, also AS. This time the speech therapist was able to clearly demonstrate that while he knows all the answers to what he is supposed to do in most social situations he just cannot apply that knowledge in real life.

For us/him time outs in his bedroom behind a locked door for tempter outbursts (and I don't withhold books because they help him calm down) and behavioral methods (because having a visual reminder of where he is at and where he is supposed to be at help a lot) were key.

Totally doesn't work with his NT sibs (he is actually the least stubborn of the lot).

It doesn't work for us. Consequences, natural, logical, artificial, or otherwise, mean nothing to my 11 year old. Also, he'll not choose one of the two choices. And, then, he'll turn around and try to use the choices thing on me.

Oh, he screams and moans about the consequences, but he'll he doesn't learn anything from it. For example, you can put on your baseball uniform and go play in your game or you can miss the game. Misses the game. Throws a big fit, apologizes, blames himself. Next week: time to get ready for your baseball game and he fusses and stalls and "wants to go but doesn't want to get ready" until he misses another game. I mean, really, how many activities can he miss and NOT LEARN to get ready. Same with karate, boy scouts, piano, whatever it is.

Makes me want to take away ALL of his activities but I know that's not healthy either.

I don't know if it has anything to do with being gifted or not but it does make me nuts.

I don't have time to read through all of the replies, but fwiw, jmo, Love and Logic works with some kids and doesn't work with others - I have both types of kids! With my gang, I've found that you have to work to find what works for each individual child and that can mean trying a bunch of different techniques, and with some children it can take a *lot* of trying things out, sometimes for many years. with other kids just about anything you try will work a-ok Some children are simply easier to parent than others, and I'm not sure it's related to giftedness... although being gifted can certainly help a child who is bound and determined to not do what their parents wants them to do to think and act quickly in the heat of the moment

polarbear

That is how we feel! We don't know anything different from how our own daughters act/behave, so is it due to giftedness that they are so stubborn, strong-willed, and impulsive or what? Aren't most kids these things? Maybe just not to the same extent. I can remember watching "Nanny Jo" on "Supernanny" (loved that show) and those kids were very stubborn, strong-willed, and impulsive, but I don't think all of them were gifted. We even tried her approach (this was years ago) where the kid is told what they did that was not acceptable and then goes to the naughty spot. After there for the alloted time he/she must apologize and can get up. We didn't really like the part of making them apologize because we felt that by forcing them it wasn't an authentic apology. That system just ended chalked up as another one we tried and didn't stick with.

Oh, we tried Supernanny, too. I think that the big difference was that we were already doing most of the 'right' things and that OUR mistakes really weren't what had gotten us to that point in the first place. I mean, some of the parents on that show... OY. Still, I love SuperNanny.

On Super-DD, however, this is what led to two days at the naughty spot. Because apparently some children would rather sit there than admit that defiance was unacceptable, or that they should feel remorseful. Or that she deserved to be sent there in the first place, evidently. Any time I'd try to "talk" about the infraction (as a means to ending the 'naughty' time) she'd revert to snide and smart-mouthed sass and continued defiance over whatever it was. Since she wasn't able to either control herself or be genuinely sorry, she wasn't getting up (IMO).

If I allowed her reading material, she'd probably happily sit like that for WEEKS, rather than the 'days' that we got with my cognitive deprivation model of the naughty spot.


I suspect that ultramarina's child (from the sounds of things) is the same breed as mine. It's almost superhuman stubbornness. My DH calls it "Cool Hand Luke" syndrome. His younger brother was like this, too-- and his parents eventually gave up rather than fighting it continuously or correcting it incessantly, which I can't say was really the right move, either. His brother is also HG+, by the way, but has struggled with "real world" skills since he often runs afoul of authority of any kind.

I console myself with the knowledge that if I can't make her break, then her peers don't much stand a chance with her either, assuming that she knows right from wrong and is being responsible.

Every kid is different, in my experience. I haven't read that specific book but found nuggets from many of the titles listed in the comments here.

My two college-age kids recently informed me that when I used to punish them for bad grades back in middle school, it was part of the fun to see what I would dish out and whether they could hack it - losing iPods, phone privileges, etc. - it was all part of a challenge to them rather than anything that created a sense of remorse or desire to change.

With all three of my kids, though, I've found that dealing with them without manipulation has worked the best. Straightforward explanations about why they cannot do something, firm lines where it really mattered, and a willingness to negotiate everything else is what helped me maintain sanity. Their desire to negotiate or test the validity of decisions used to exhaust me, but I've seen the fruit of that behavior as adults - they're much more able to advocate for themselves with college professors and bosses. They've learned the balance between defiance and raising valid questions, and they're actually well respected by their bosses because of it.

Have not read the thread. Depends on the kid. But my thoughts have evolved and I think the book Hold on to Your Kids made a big difference in the level of peace in our house. That and also Transforming the Difficult Child.

YES-- and this is why the book "The Manipulative Child" was so helpful for my family. It wasn't about punishing particular behaviors in my child so much as depriving them of any satisfactory reward for her, often via changing my OWN interactions with her so that they were less manipulative as well.

Unfortunately, a lot of parenting wisdom is about coercive or manipulative operant conditioning or extrinsic rewarding, and for some kids, it's really bad news. I do think that "GT" status may well be enriched in that group and vice versa. But there are plenty of kids that don't fall in both groups, or are in one but not the other.

Some of it is personality. I'm really liking the person that my daughter is growing up to be, so there is a lot of hope for parents of younger kids. She was an enormous amount of work/stress/trouble for about seven years, but it's paying off handsomely now.

What I didn't say earlier is that my HG+ middle child is going to grow up to turn into HKs DD as far as willfullness goes. When she was 2yrs old and I decided she was going to nap IN her cot and I was NOT going to rock her anymore (I sat down next to her and talked calmly to her) she sat down next to me in the cot and screamed at me for the full 2hrs until nap time was over, got up and went on with her day and then did not nap again for TWO WEEKS. I did not try that approach again.

When we had her assessed by a psychologist for selective mutism at barely 5 I was told, rather cheerfully "Do not go head to head with this child, you WILL lose. She's not seeking conflict, but if it arises she WILL see it to the bitter end, so pick your battles and go at her sidewise." Tell me something I don't know...

This is why I'm liking the Collaborative Problem Solving model so far. But it remains to be seen whether it will "work".

This is so funny - the director of DD8's daycare told all her teachers much the same thing when she was 3, almost word for word.

Oh, again, YES. THIS.

Really, DD is astounding. It frightens my DH, who at times becomes worried that she is pathological in some way due to her ability to "lock down" and refuse to apologize, relent, whatever. But she shows a lot of empathy and sensitivity at other times.

She is also is VERY persistent in a positive way with tasks she sets herself. If she were to decide today to learn ancient Greek, and she really wanted to--get out of her damn way.

FWIW, my other kid "breaks" MUCH more easily and is 100x easier to discipline. Like, DH and I sorta look at each other and go, "Oh, wow! That thing we read about in the parenting books? It just WORKED." By all indications he is probably at least as gifted as she is; he just doesn't seem to have that chip in his brain.

Thank goodness DD doesn't behave this way with peers or she would be friendless. I am not quite sure where the pitbull goes, but she muzzles it.

My grade 5 teacher (my first year in gifted) confiscated my books. MAN, did that get my f#$%ing attention. Until that day, no-one had ever been willing to go to bat against my "but it's good for me" techniques. No-one had _ever_ recognized that they did not need to encourage me to learn/read/study. That was what I _wanted_ to do, and nothing was going to change that about me. My grade 5 teacher saw very quickly that there was no risk of turning me off reading, but that I REALLY needed to be encouraged to go play with somebody once in a while.

He wasn't the best teacher ever, but that particular thing was worth a whole year, all by itself. (He did lots of other good things, too)

And, yeah, undivided attention is kinda currency, but for the most part he just melts down, and is unable to make a choice to get my attention back.

We get by, you know... it's not like it's a constant disaster, just we're generally on the verge of disaster. There _are_ ways of making things work so he's able to let go at important times... I guess that's what I really mean by spoiling: Is it spoiling to give him precise information about things when I know he will not get that in kindergarten, though I know that by giving him that level of detail, he'll feel better and be happier, and NOT melt down? In a day camp for 2-3yr olds, he freaked out because the counselors wouldn't give him the cross-streets for the park they were going to. He was genuinely concerned that I wouldn't be able to pick him up because I wouldn't know where to find him. He was looking for a way to get a message to me. They would only tell him I'd know where to pick him up, but not _how_ I would know, and they wouldn't help him take even the first step in getting a message to me. Is it spoiling him to talk about street names, and locations of things, given that I know he'll end up in situations like that, where adults can't fathom that when he asks "where is the park" he really wants to know the street names? I don't really think so. I think it's really great that he understands his surroundings that well, that he can worry about something like that shows a solid awareness of a whole lot of things I want him to understand and be aware of. I don't want to drill it out of him. But when I've been doing those things, really making sure he has the info he cares about, letting him in on stuff, he DOES start to expect it more, and it IS more of a let-down when others do not do the same. But an adult would certainly expect to get a clear answer to "were are we going?" why SHOULDn't he expect it too? and if we drill it out of him now, what will that mean when he's older and has this deep-seated lesson that he shouldn't ask for clarification? That sounds like a bad situation, there, too.

The same goes for lot of other stuff in the "Best practices" section of the parenting library. For example, really listening to him about what's upsetting him. Most adults he encounters are truly not prepared to hear what he's saying, no matter how hard they try. Today, a certain issue was about castles. He was afraid that he would not be able to behave sufficiently well to allow me to get his little brother to sleep, because I had said that we couldn't go to the area where the hot glue (to build the castle) is until DS2 was asleep. That would be a lil confusing if an adult said it to me. He needed to hear that we would keep trying things until DS2 slept, and that I would try to help him keep from interfering. DS2 was hard to get to sleep (like usual), but DS1 had no trouble keeping from being a problem, as it turned out... ONCE I had told him I'd help if I needed to and that we'd keep trying till it worked. If I hadn't told him that, I suspect the tantrum would have gone on until we had to leave, without making the castle.

All the books agree that it's best to address underlying issues, but what if I know other people won't be able to address his? Should I be getting him used to not being understood? That seems wrong... but... um... easy....

He's slowly getting better at pulling out of the stall when I do just ignore him, but it's slow-going. Meh. Whatever. This too shall pass

Sorry for plummeting the thread into philosophy of discipline instead of theory and practice thereof! I'm predictable, at least...

This is so true, and why the book Hold on to Your Kids made such a difference. Focusing on the relationship rather than behavior was huge. More effective and more peaceful. (I am not opposed to manipulation and extrinsic rewards, but it just doesn't work for some kids.)

Michaela - Is option #3 that you continue as you are and teach him to communicate his needs more and more clearly, concisely and succinctly to increase the chance of being listened to AND work on "adults don't always have time to listen carefully to every child in the group"... He's likely to get better at both things before school yes?

My 2.5yr old is exceptionally clear about communicating most things but certain situations she clearly just doesn't have either the cognitive or possibly language skills yet. It is almost always when I am asking her a question and she cannot answer. This morning:

Me: "Can you tell me WHY don't you want to go into the ballet class?"
DD: "I don't want to go in"

repeat ad infinitum. Should I put reasons into her mouth ("Is the music too loud?")? Should I give up? Mostly I give up. OR:

Me: "Would you like option A or option B?"
DD: "Yes"
Me: "Option A or option B?"
DD: "Yes"

We don't have these communication fails often but when we do the timing is always horrid... But I know it will pass and she's so far proving to be very likely to be listened to by other adults because she does communicate exactly what she wants or needs with perfect clarity and simplicity. She's ahead of where her sisters were in communicating with random adults, but all of them were pretty decent at being understood and listened to by 4.

It is prehaps naive of me but I think that this may not be as bad as you think it will be by Kindegarten. I think you can really make amazing progress both his ability to politely, clearly and concisely convey what he wants/needs AND on his ability to cope with not being heard at times.

I started this post in a notepad file, and lost track of the originators of the quotes... this was dumb, but there you have it... anyway.... I also switched keyboard languages by mistake, and can`t figure out where, I`ve fixed it in two places and it`s still wrong. (this is where I admit I`ve had a glass or two)

(quoting)Currently reading reports before another IEP meeting for DS8, also AS. This time the speech therapist was able to clearly demonstrate that while he knows all the answers to what he is supposed to do in most social situations he just cannot apply that knowledge in real life.(/quoting)

This is me, in a nutshell... it's why I do so much better online. A chance to edit, even slightly, works wonders.

AS I've gotten older, it's gotten better, but the STRESS of making it happen is significant. I think that's something people, neurotypical and otherwise, need to hear, often, and loudly.

My older son is young enough that this reality is very noticable. He knows what he should do... but that doesn't mean he can do it. See my earlier comment about him tantrumming because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to act as he desired to.

(quoting) with my cognitive deprivation model of the naughty spot.(quoting)
When DSelder is really tantrumming, I cover his eyes in time out. This is a kind of manful thing that I feel very displeased with on an ethical level. I definitely do not do it if I think he`s melting down. But if he can SEE, he can escape the physical restriction of time-out (I hold him on my lap, he`s nowhere even close to being able to stay in a time-out by himself). Same deal as restricting reading, I think. His mind is wide enough to serve him for a playground, as it were, so long as he can see.(équoting)

(quoting)With all three of my kids, though, I've found that dealing with them without manipulation has worked the best. Straightforward explanations about why they cannot do something, firm lines where it really mattered, and a willingness to negotiate everything else is what helped me maintain sanity.(équoting)

I sometimes feel bad that I don`t use all the sweet little tricks other parents use with their kids... giving a substitute toy for something you`re taking away, and so on. But then something happens, and I recall just how badly my kids seem to react to those tricks. They`re so kind and gentle, when they work, but when the kid sees through them they suddenly look cruel.

(quoting)Some of it is personality. I'm really liking the person that my daughter is growing up to be, so there is a lot of hope for parents of younger kids. She was an enormous amount of work/stress/trouble for about seven years, but it's paying off handsomely now.(équoting)

In my somewhat drunken state, I feel a deep need to reply to this statement with `I love you,` and `Please say that one more timeÉ`

Now that I`ve replied to all the stuff that got posted while I was writing my previous post...

MumofThree: where we live, DS starts K next Sept, so it`s not far off. Nearly all kids have preschool going in, as well. You may still have a point, though, it`s just that we`re running low on time. I have to make a decision about how I`m going to approach the change. What I`m going to tell him about school, and what I`m going to expect from him in terms of how he is at school. Given his reactions to Preschool, we might need a LOT of mental health days.

thanks for the thread folks... these things make my life much better.

-Mich

Ah! Nobody ever called my bluff! Ever!!
I was amazed that during (compulsory) study time in high school nobody ever asked what I was doing -- apparently as long as I had a book (even the trashiest golden age pulp SF) it was considered to be work. A lot of homework never got done that way. I mean, in class I had to hide the book under the table...



I get that with DD4. A lot. Minus the need for constant verbal interaction. Several months of trying to withhold attention... Failed. Rather spectacularly. I haven't found a solution.

I strongly suspect my mother shares the diagnosis. I grew up watching how it plays out, to some degree (unidentified, of course, and with a child's assumption of parental infallibility). The anxiety can get crippling.

I alternate looking at her as the horrible or the reassuring example of what could happen to DS8. She had a successful life so far, despite the stress and the anxiety...

Thanks for sharing your insights on that!

Hi Mich
i saw your post after this but I wanted to reply to this because the events you refer to make me think in two different directions. I think you should always answer his questions/concerns to the fullest. I don't think it is unreasonable to provide DS with the location of the park. He is asking more sophisticated questions and wants more nuanced answers because that is how he thinks. that is not going to change with age and maturity. And that is where I think you as the parent of a kid who needs something special - in this case information - are there to provide it. What will change and what is worth working on is that he can't throw a fit if he doesn't get the answers when he wants them. The center of the universe syndrome is pretty expected at his age but if not matured out of can be really a problem.

What is more of an issue to me is that he thinks other people need to do what you do - so while I think what you are doing is necessary for him and not spoiling - I don't think its reasonable for him to have the expectation that everyone else will do that. The problem as I see it is that other adults are unlikely to realize that he needs more complex information until he is able to clarify what he wants for them - which will come. But the anxiety - you won't find him and the frustration in trying to get that out - I think this is where you can help by talking to him not just about what he can do but also what to expect from people.

I think the preschool situation will be problematic unless you can successfully change what he thinks he is doing there and what he can/should expect from it. Tantrums from gifted or non gifted are about frustration - and its not surprising for his frustration level to be higher. So then the issue is helping him manage it.

So on one level I think he needs to learn to manage frustration with everyone. But I also think that you providing the kind of answers and info he needs is not a problem unless that is influencing his ability to function with others.

But what also caught my attention is the anxiety and the solving of anxiety with information - some of that is reasonable, to be worried until you know how things will work - but this can also be a personality thing rather than an age/uncertainty thing. I am not sure you can know that now. But a lot of people have written on the board about that kind of what if worrying that a lot of our kids can do and there might be some advice floating around on it ( i would search and link for you but I am so bad at that, I never find anything i remember reading :)) .

hang in!

DeHe

I don't think it's spoiling. But this strikes me as a child with some anxiety. It really ought to be enough to say, "Your mother knows where you are and has the address. You don't need to worry about it. It's okay. I promise." (The camp people may not have dealt with it well.) He probably needs some practice with this.

I have an anxious child who always wants complete and full information about everything. I find that sometimes I need to tell her that it is not her responsibility to have to know everything. I do cut her off and tell her she doesn't need to know or worry about xyz at times. I think this is good practice for the real world; you can't always know everything, regardless of age. You have to accept a good deal of uncertainty. (You could know the cross streets, but what if there's traffic? Might there be a storm? You know?)

I think this can come with high intelligence. DD does not fully trust that adults know what they're doing; she has seemed to know since forever that adults are not infallible and make mistakes often. This is probably because she has been catching us in small inaccuracies and mistakes since she could talk (and she was speaking in paragraphs at 18 months).

As I was reading through this, I found it interesting that the term "negotiator" was used more than once in a negative connotation, because when our DD went into a negotiator phase at age 3, we generally found it delightful. She's definitely a top-down learner, and we've always catered to that by explaining our reasoning for our rules. From time to time she'd ask for something, and we'd tell her no, provide our explanation, and she'd surprise us by coming up with solution that satisfied both of our goals... some of them quite impressive.

The only time this was an issue was when she offered something later for something now. A common example was when she was engaged in something at bedtime, and didn't want to stop. She'd propose skipping bedtime stories... a fair compromise that meets both our goals, as she gets to continue her activity, and we get to ensure she goes to sleep on time. Then we'd announce the new bedtime had arrived, she'd demand stories, and then behave as if we'd betrayed her by holding her to her end of the deal.

Oh yeah. So been there. My 2nd child tried to tell me last week she didn't want any Christmas presents if she could just.... I don't think so...

Not sure if this was really a L&L approach or not, but this morning we told the girls if they could get ready for school without any of the typical morning drama (bickering, wasting time, etc.)then we would do something extra-special as a family tonight. It worked - my morning was stress free!!! Guess this confirms to us as parents that our time is worth more to our children than probably anything else. Why didn't I think of this sooner? I would gladly give them more time in exchange for less drama in the house! Now lets see how long I can get this to last.

lol, too true, I guarantee DS 30 minutes of play time a night with him and I. On the odd occasion he won't listen or such, I only have to tell him I am buying back time of mine he is using now from our playtime.

Well, perhaps I'm jaded from thirteen years of life with one of these kids without any apparent levers... but at least at my house, I'd not assume that this was because I'd found her currency. Though, to be fair, I used to think that.

I'd be so hopeful when I would try something and it would.... WORK!!! (Hurray, right? Meh... not so much, actually.)

Rather, I'd probably chalk it up to "oooooo--- SHINY" since pretty much ANY new strategy that we try works. At least once, I mean-- but generally no more than three times. Almost all keys seem to be single-use with this particular child.

Yes. The whole premise of the book Hold on to your Kids is that all the good things we want spring from what we invest in the relationship. That sounds so obvious...but it is really worth reading. I spent years thinking that I could get the desired results from a sort of behaviorist approach, telling myself that what worked for dolphins at Sea World should work on my kids. Not so much.

Well, it does work with people, too. I know a few trainers.

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Teaching-Training/dp/1860542387

But nothing is perfect either. Animals and people have personalities and sometimes you can't reach them.

And kids are still growing so you have to adjust as they adjust.

We use the LL approach with Mr W and it works 95% of the time. The other 5% we have to resort to loss of privileges and one day we had to resort to spanking.

My copy of Transforming the Difficult Child came in yesterday. What little I've had time to read sounds similiar to parts of the L&L approach. Hopefully I can find time to finish reading it and if it sounds like something that will work for us, maybe get started implementing it over the holidays.