Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Does "Love and Logic" work with gifted children

My grade 5 teacher (my first year in gifted) confiscated my books. MAN, did that get my f#$%ing attention. Until that day, no-one had ever been willing to go to bat against my "but it's good for me" techniques. No-one had _ever_ recognized that they did not need to encourage me to learn/read/study. That was what I _wanted_ to do, and nothing was going to change that about me. My grade 5 teacher saw very quickly that there was no risk of turning me off reading, but that I REALLY needed to be encouraged to go play with somebody once in a while.

He wasn't the best teacher ever, but that particular thing was worth a whole year, all by itself. (He did lots of other good things, too)

And, yeah, undivided attention is kinda currency, but for the most part he just melts down, and is unable to make a choice to get my attention back.

We get by, you know... it's not like it's a constant disaster, just we're generally on the verge of disaster. There _are_ ways of making things work so he's able to let go at important times... I guess that's what I really mean by spoiling: Is it spoiling to give him precise information about things when I know he will not get that in kindergarten, though I know that by giving him that level of detail, he'll feel better and be happier, and NOT melt down? In a day camp for 2-3yr olds, he freaked out because the counselors wouldn't give him the cross-streets for the park they were going to. He was genuinely concerned that I wouldn't be able to pick him up because I wouldn't know where to find him. He was looking for a way to get a message to me. They would only tell him I'd know where to pick him up, but not _how_ I would know, and they wouldn't help him take even the first step in getting a message to me. Is it spoiling him to talk about street names, and locations of things, given that I know he'll end up in situations like that, where adults can't fathom that when he asks "where is the park" he really wants to know the street names? I don't really think so. I think it's really great that he understands his surroundings that well, that he can worry about something like that shows a solid awareness of a whole lot of things I want him to understand and be aware of. I don't want to drill it out of him. But when I've been doing those things, really making sure he has the info he cares about, letting him in on stuff, he DOES start to expect it more, and it IS more of a let-down when others do not do the same. But an adult would certainly expect to get a clear answer to "were are we going?" why SHOULDn't he expect it too? and if we drill it out of him now, what will that mean when he's older and has this deep-seated lesson that he shouldn't ask for clarification? That sounds like a bad situation, there, too.

The same goes for lot of other stuff in the "Best practices" section of the parenting library. For example, really listening to him about what's upsetting him. Most adults he encounters are truly not prepared to hear what he's saying, no matter how hard they try. Today, a certain issue was about castles. He was afraid that he would not be able to behave sufficiently well to allow me to get his little brother to sleep, because I had said that we couldn't go to the area where the hot glue (to build the castle) is until DS2 was asleep. That would be a lil confusing if an adult said it to me. He needed to hear that we would keep trying things until DS2 slept, and that I would try to help him keep from interfering. DS2 was hard to get to sleep (like usual), but DS1 had no trouble keeping from being a problem, as it turned out... ONCE I had told him I'd help if I needed to and that we'd keep trying till it worked. If I hadn't told him that, I suspect the tantrum would have gone on until we had to leave, without making the castle.

All the books agree that it's best to address underlying issues, but what if I know other people won't be able to address his? Should I be getting him used to not being understood? That seems wrong... but... um... easy....

He's slowly getting better at pulling out of the stall when I do just ignore him, but it's slow-going. Meh. Whatever. This too shall pass

Sorry for plummeting the thread into philosophy of discipline instead of theory and practice thereof! I'm predictable, at least...

This is so true, and why the book Hold on to Your Kids made such a difference. Focusing on the relationship rather than behavior was huge. More effective and more peaceful. (I am not opposed to manipulation and extrinsic rewards, but it just doesn't work for some kids.)

Michaela - Is option #3 that you continue as you are and teach him to communicate his needs more and more clearly, concisely and succinctly to increase the chance of being listened to AND work on "adults don't always have time to listen carefully to every child in the group"... He's likely to get better at both things before school yes?

My 2.5yr old is exceptionally clear about communicating most things but certain situations she clearly just doesn't have either the cognitive or possibly language skills yet. It is almost always when I am asking her a question and she cannot answer. This morning:

Me: "Can you tell me WHY don't you want to go into the ballet class?"
DD: "I don't want to go in"

repeat ad infinitum. Should I put reasons into her mouth ("Is the music too loud?")? Should I give up? Mostly I give up. OR:

Me: "Would you like option A or option B?"
DD: "Yes"
Me: "Option A or option B?"
DD: "Yes"

We don't have these communication fails often but when we do the timing is always horrid... But I know it will pass and she's so far proving to be very likely to be listened to by other adults because she does communicate exactly what she wants or needs with perfect clarity and simplicity. She's ahead of where her sisters were in communicating with random adults, but all of them were pretty decent at being understood and listened to by 4.

It is prehaps naive of me but I think that this may not be as bad as you think it will be by Kindegarten. I think you can really make amazing progress both his ability to politely, clearly and concisely convey what he wants/needs AND on his ability to cope with not being heard at times.

I started this post in a notepad file, and lost track of the originators of the quotes... this was dumb, but there you have it... anyway.... I also switched keyboard languages by mistake, and can`t figure out where, I`ve fixed it in two places and it`s still wrong. (this is where I admit I`ve had a glass or two)

(quoting)Currently reading reports before another IEP meeting for DS8, also AS. This time the speech therapist was able to clearly demonstrate that while he knows all the answers to what he is supposed to do in most social situations he just cannot apply that knowledge in real life.(/quoting)

This is me, in a nutshell... it's why I do so much better online. A chance to edit, even slightly, works wonders.

AS I've gotten older, it's gotten better, but the STRESS of making it happen is significant. I think that's something people, neurotypical and otherwise, need to hear, often, and loudly.

My older son is young enough that this reality is very noticable. He knows what he should do... but that doesn't mean he can do it. See my earlier comment about him tantrumming because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to act as he desired to.

(quoting) with my cognitive deprivation model of the naughty spot.(quoting)
When DSelder is really tantrumming, I cover his eyes in time out. This is a kind of manful thing that I feel very displeased with on an ethical level. I definitely do not do it if I think he`s melting down. But if he can SEE, he can escape the physical restriction of time-out (I hold him on my lap, he`s nowhere even close to being able to stay in a time-out by himself). Same deal as restricting reading, I think. His mind is wide enough to serve him for a playground, as it were, so long as he can see.(équoting)

(quoting)With all three of my kids, though, I've found that dealing with them without manipulation has worked the best. Straightforward explanations about why they cannot do something, firm lines where it really mattered, and a willingness to negotiate everything else is what helped me maintain sanity.(équoting)

I sometimes feel bad that I don`t use all the sweet little tricks other parents use with their kids... giving a substitute toy for something you`re taking away, and so on. But then something happens, and I recall just how badly my kids seem to react to those tricks. They`re so kind and gentle, when they work, but when the kid sees through them they suddenly look cruel.

(quoting)Some of it is personality. I'm really liking the person that my daughter is growing up to be, so there is a lot of hope for parents of younger kids. She was an enormous amount of work/stress/trouble for about seven years, but it's paying off handsomely now.(équoting)

In my somewhat drunken state, I feel a deep need to reply to this statement with `I love you,` and `Please say that one more timeÉ`

Now that I`ve replied to all the stuff that got posted while I was writing my previous post...

MumofThree: where we live, DS starts K next Sept, so it`s not far off. Nearly all kids have preschool going in, as well. You may still have a point, though, it`s just that we`re running low on time. I have to make a decision about how I`m going to approach the change. What I`m going to tell him about school, and what I`m going to expect from him in terms of how he is at school. Given his reactions to Preschool, we might need a LOT of mental health days.

thanks for the thread folks... these things make my life much better.

-Mich

Ah! Nobody ever called my bluff! Ever!!
I was amazed that during (compulsory) study time in high school nobody ever asked what I was doing -- apparently as long as I had a book (even the trashiest golden age pulp SF) it was considered to be work. A lot of homework never got done that way. I mean, in class I had to hide the book under the table...



I get that with DD4. A lot. Minus the need for constant verbal interaction. Several months of trying to withhold attention... Failed. Rather spectacularly. I haven't found a solution.

I strongly suspect my mother shares the diagnosis. I grew up watching how it plays out, to some degree (unidentified, of course, and with a child's assumption of parental infallibility). The anxiety can get crippling.

I alternate looking at her as the horrible or the reassuring example of what could happen to DS8. She had a successful life so far, despite the stress and the anxiety...

Thanks for sharing your insights on that!

Hi Mich
i saw your post after this but I wanted to reply to this because the events you refer to make me think in two different directions. I think you should always answer his questions/concerns to the fullest. I don't think it is unreasonable to provide DS with the location of the park. He is asking more sophisticated questions and wants more nuanced answers because that is how he thinks. that is not going to change with age and maturity. And that is where I think you as the parent of a kid who needs something special - in this case information - are there to provide it. What will change and what is worth working on is that he can't throw a fit if he doesn't get the answers when he wants them. The center of the universe syndrome is pretty expected at his age but if not matured out of can be really a problem.

What is more of an issue to me is that he thinks other people need to do what you do - so while I think what you are doing is necessary for him and not spoiling - I don't think its reasonable for him to have the expectation that everyone else will do that. The problem as I see it is that other adults are unlikely to realize that he needs more complex information until he is able to clarify what he wants for them - which will come. But the anxiety - you won't find him and the frustration in trying to get that out - I think this is where you can help by talking to him not just about what he can do but also what to expect from people.

I think the preschool situation will be problematic unless you can successfully change what he thinks he is doing there and what he can/should expect from it. Tantrums from gifted or non gifted are about frustration - and its not surprising for his frustration level to be higher. So then the issue is helping him manage it.

So on one level I think he needs to learn to manage frustration with everyone. But I also think that you providing the kind of answers and info he needs is not a problem unless that is influencing his ability to function with others.

But what also caught my attention is the anxiety and the solving of anxiety with information - some of that is reasonable, to be worried until you know how things will work - but this can also be a personality thing rather than an age/uncertainty thing. I am not sure you can know that now. But a lot of people have written on the board about that kind of what if worrying that a lot of our kids can do and there might be some advice floating around on it ( i would search and link for you but I am so bad at that, I never find anything i remember reading :)) .

hang in!

DeHe

I don't think it's spoiling. But this strikes me as a child with some anxiety. It really ought to be enough to say, "Your mother knows where you are and has the address. You don't need to worry about it. It's okay. I promise." (The camp people may not have dealt with it well.) He probably needs some practice with this.

I have an anxious child who always wants complete and full information about everything. I find that sometimes I need to tell her that it is not her responsibility to have to know everything. I do cut her off and tell her she doesn't need to know or worry about xyz at times. I think this is good practice for the real world; you can't always know everything, regardless of age. You have to accept a good deal of uncertainty. (You could know the cross streets, but what if there's traffic? Might there be a storm? You know?)

I think this can come with high intelligence. DD does not fully trust that adults know what they're doing; she has seemed to know since forever that adults are not infallible and make mistakes often. This is probably because she has been catching us in small inaccuracies and mistakes since she could talk (and she was speaking in paragraphs at 18 months).

As I was reading through this, I found it interesting that the term "negotiator" was used more than once in a negative connotation, because when our DD went into a negotiator phase at age 3, we generally found it delightful. She's definitely a top-down learner, and we've always catered to that by explaining our reasoning for our rules. From time to time she'd ask for something, and we'd tell her no, provide our explanation, and she'd surprise us by coming up with solution that satisfied both of our goals... some of them quite impressive.

The only time this was an issue was when she offered something later for something now. A common example was when she was engaged in something at bedtime, and didn't want to stop. She'd propose skipping bedtime stories... a fair compromise that meets both our goals, as she gets to continue her activity, and we get to ensure she goes to sleep on time. Then we'd announce the new bedtime had arrived, she'd demand stories, and then behave as if we'd betrayed her by holding her to her end of the deal.

Oh yeah. So been there. My 2nd child tried to tell me last week she didn't want any Christmas presents if she could just.... I don't think so...